Panasonic DVD recorder passthrough settings (DMR-ES10, DMR-ES15, DMR-ES25)

[bar72]

Many thanks for the guide. Picked up an ES-10 for VHS > mkv and it's doing a grand job with my old concert VHS tapes.

[bmichaelb]

Thank you for this guide. I have the DMR-ES16, but when it comes to the black levels, I actually found that Lighter in/Lighter out looks closer to what my JVC HR-S7800U is outputting, and that Lighter in/Darker out is darker than the VCR. I can match them with minor tweaks to the levels while capturing. The tapes I'm working with have quite a bit of blacks, greys and a rainbow of colours... the Woodstock 99 stage. Light in/Light out is the only way to match the grey of the stage. The way I see it, Lighter would stand for Rec. 601, while Darker would be Rec. 709, and if the VCR is playing an SD broadcast recording which is Rec. 601, why change it to Rec. 709?

[rgr]

I don't know if JVC will be a good indicator here. I noticed that the video from JVC is darker (unnaturally dark) than from e.g. Panasonic, and therefore the colors are too saturated.

[bmichaelb]

I don't know if JVC will be a good indicator here. I noticed that the video from JVC is darker (unnaturally dark) than from e.g. Panasonic, and therefore the colors are too saturated.

Unnaturally dark? I already have the tapes converted to DVD using one of those VHS-DVD decks back in 2006, but once I tried editing them on pc they looked too compressed and the machine didn't have a TBC, so it was wobbly. The extracted files look the same as the JVC captures. At least with 'my' deck. Blacks are fine. But that shouldn't matter here... regardless of what the playback VCR is, selecting Lighter In/Lighter Out is giving the same blacks as the VCR natively. It shouldn't matter what VCR is being used to feed the Panasonic... the blacks should be the same, or almost the same. I still need to tweak the levels in VirtualDub slightly to match.

[bmichaelb]

OK... I must admit I was wrong. While my settings looked fine on my pc monitor, it looked washed out on my tv. Light in/Dark out is definitely better. My bad.

[Bartoloni]

Hi guys, i just bought a faulty ES10 (power board to be recapped).. the PAL version i read about the AV1 SCART output to don't have brightness issues.. but looking at my unit.. the brightness i clipped .. on very white spots is nearly impossible to see details.. AV1 ,AV2 and S-video out have the same brightness clipping

so... the AV1 scart output legend is fake?

Right. Unfortunately, my HDMI grabber cannot capture interlaced video. But you don't lose much, because I see Panasonic makes quite a simple and reversible deinterlace. When the OSD is on the screen, it looks even better than QTGMC with default settings.

the very power of the QTGMC is NOT on static OSD... but on fast horizontal movements.. i'm sure that an HDMI capture (using some unknown deinterlacing method) is worse than a standard QTGMC on interlaced source.

[Bogilein]

@Bartoloni

Do you actually read the advice that has already been given to you in the many other posts? The solution was there.

The clipping has nothing to do with the brightness flushing. Here I have shown the brightness flushing.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/403635-Panasonic-DVD-recorder-passthrough-settings...e9#post2685720

The clipping should affect all PAL Panasonic DMRs from 2002-2009. At least my eight devices all behave the same with regard to clipping.
You have to reduce the brightness signal in the analogue signal path before it goes into the DMR, up to the point where the AGC of the DMR no longer adjusts.
This can be done by means of a potentiometer, either with a composite cable or with S-Video if you use such cables.

[Attachment 83482 - Click to enlarge]

"Google Translation from german gleitz video board"

Then I came up with the idea of ​​looping in a simple (passive!) volume control potentiometer for audio line signals:
The device has a stereo jack input and a stereo cinch output. So you need a jack-cinch (audio) cable and a cinch-cinch video cable.

Since it is a stereo potentiometer you can use either the "red" (right) or "white" (left) cinch (it just has to be the same on input and output ;D).

The potentiometer loads the (normally audio) source with 8kOhm and regulates the output signal according to the voltage divider principle.

Now the DMR recorder of course (correctly) has an AGC at the input. This pulls the video signal down to the (1Vp-p) standard level based on the burst signals (has nothing to do with the IMAGE CONTENT! - except that with real analog camera sensors this can actually be above the standard level (1 Vp-p), whereby the overload can go well beyond the super value range 235...255).
If you now reduce the level of the entire video signal (which we do with a simple potentiometer), you also lower the signal burst level - and the AGC in the DMR adjusts accordingly. However, this "only" has a control range of approx. 0.5 to 2 Vp-p. So if you reduce the level below 0.5 V, the AGC can no longer "catch up" - and FROM THEN the image actually becomes "darker"!
The black point does NOT shift in the process! I also noticed absolutely NO deterioration in the signal (streaks, blurring)!

You need a bit of "feel" when adjusting. While adjusting, the picture flickers and pumps immensely. It is also not "much" below the maximum setting, because -50% level (-6dB) is not all that much for a volume control.

So you proceed as follows:
1. Loop the potentiometer into the FBAS line between the VCR and the Panasonic DMR and set it to MAX!
2. Look for a tape section with oversaturated areas (long scene, or switch to freeze frame)
3. Now adjust the potentiometer very carefully (!) until the AGC no longer adjusts and the white point is sufficiently lowered

...the potentiometer should ideally be placed a little way away from the device on a stable surface so that nothing moves (including the cable) and there are no vibrations - otherwise you will quickly end up with interference and brightness pumping. Once you have found the right pivot point, don't touch it again!

!! The whole thing is of course a "amateur method", but it works!!

(The correction can only be made on the direct source signal (regardless of whether it is done via potentiometer or proc amp) - not possible, for example, behind recorders with a "TBC" function)

Or with a self-made ‘special cable’ as described here from the user Loetkolben. Maybe you have to adjust the resistors a little to your own material.

"Google Translation from german gleitz video board"

In order to properly digitize Video8 and Hi8 cassettes, I bought a Blackmagic Intensity Pro and a Panasonic DMR-EH495. Unfortunately, as I feared, the luminance channel is noticeably overdriven. For the best possible quality, only transmission via S-Video is possible. So I had to bite the bullet and get an S-Video cable. A simple voltage divider with a potentiometer can be problematic because the video signals are transmitted with 75 ohm input and output impedance. These are signals with several megahertz that are easily reflected if the impedance is poorly matched and cause visible image errors. The solution is an attenuator designed for 75 ohms . I built it as a Pi circuit with 0805 resistors on a strip grid board to keep unwanted inductance/capacitance as low as possible:

-5.6dB attenuation (Pi circuit with 2x240 ohms between Y and Y- and 51.7 ohms in series with the luminance signal Y) has proven to be optimal for well-controlled video. There were no fluctuations between the cassettes, regardless of whether they were Video8 or Hi8. All cassettes were played on a Hi8 camcorder. The chrominance channel does not need to be adjusted, it is transmitted with a lower voltage anyway. Despite the reduced luminance level, there are no oversaturated colors. Here is another example: Hi8 still image with waveform display for Y, Cb and Cr:

There are still a few isolated peaks in the "forbidden" super white area - but a stronger attenuation does not reveal any additional image information because these areas of the image were already overexposed when the picture was taken. I tried digitizing with even stronger attenuation. The result was gray highlights and unused resolution of the brightness values.

[Attachment 83484 - Click to enlarge]

Or you can use a ProcAmp video processor that only works in the analog path, something like this:

[Attachment 83485 - Click to enlarge]
But you have to make sure that it does not generate other errors.

If nothing else helps, use one of the Sony/Pioneer devices listed here instead of the Panasonic if the jitter correction is sufficient for your tapes.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/414397-Which-of-these-DVD-players-can-be-used-from...BC#post2739171

But you should never forget that the clipping can already be present on the tape. The playback device, the TBC (Line+Frame), the capture card and any other device in the signal chain can also be responsible for the clipping.

[Bartoloni]

i have a lot of audio/video mixers that are able to reduce brightness of output of VCR.. i will try to see how much "degradation" on details come out from an "extra" thing on the conversion chain.

[Sharc]

i have a lot of audio/video mixers that are able to reduce brightness of output of VCR.. i will try to see how much "degradation" on details come out from an "extra" thing on the conversion chain.

You are discussing the same here which makes it difficult to follow.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/414910-Panasonic-DMR-E55H-%28pal%29-and-E85H-%28pa...-is-too-bright

[Joscraft_05]

I bought a Panasonic DMR-ES10 PAL for 10€ without a remote and with the door for insert DVDs "broken" and i'm wondering if the problem of the brightness is also present in the component output of the DVD recorder.

Because i have a Sony HDR FX1E HDV cam and i'm looking for a component cable. And buy a universal remote too.

If i can't find the right component cable for my camera i will buy another good shielded s-video cable for the output, for the input i already have a profigold fat cable and for now has been very good without any interference.

Strange i'm watching a video from a guy that seems to be in PAL land and the DMR-ES10 video with the other from a JVC deck with TBC looks the best from the rest and especially the DMR-ES10 example looks less bright with colors a bit more vibrant...

This is the video:

https://youtu.be/Z8ICf7429rM?si=FxGqP8ES9ZObOMPX

[Joscraft_05]

I'm also looking for a SCART to s-video cable and i found this Vivanco cable for 6€ in his original packaging. It is good?


[Attachment 84209 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 84210 - Click to enlarge]

[Seleron]

Hello everyone, I have a question - on one of the earlier pages one of the users listed Panasonic DMR models, my model is:
2008 Panasonic DMR-EH585 || 250GB,HDMI,(TBC),12bit
which, according to the specifications, supports 12bit - is this 12bit possible through the DVD-RAM disc or only through the HDMI output?

[rgr]

Hello everyone, I have a question - on one of the earlier pages one of the users listed Panasonic DMR models, my model is:
2008 Panasonic DMR-EH585 || 250GB,HDMI,(TBC),12bit
which, according to the specifications, supports 12bit - is this 12bit possible through the DVD-RAM disc or only through the HDMI output?

It's not what you think. Plus it's a Digital->Analog converter (DAC).

[Seleron]

So what does the 12 bit refer to?

[Bogilein]

So what does the 12 bit refer to?

From Panasonic Website:


[Attachment 84364 - Click to enlarge]

[rgr]

So what does the 12 bit refer to?

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-resolution-of-a-12-bit-D-A-converter

[Seleron]

Ok, thank you all for your replies

[dickfrey]

Hi, i'm new on this forum but it's sometime that i'm reading it.
I have bought a Mygica EZ Grabber and isn't bad, because it have the chip Conexant Polaris, the same of products like VC500 Diamond Multimedia.
I have tried to capture with AVS Recorder and OBS (this last one i need to change some W10 configurations because it lose the video or the sound).
I have also a Intensity Shuttle Thundebolt, to use with a Mac, but nothing can be seen from my VHS with composite output (some image flashed).
So i have read this very interesting post and i would like to test the capture with a TBC Panny.
I have found some Panasonic used : ES10, ES15, E55, EH50, EX79, all PAL version.
Because i'm a little bit confused, wich one is the best to buy ?
I have understood some problems of brightness on all this model, but i will use the Scart RGB and not S-Video to connect to Mygica or Intensity Shuttle.
And another thing, what do you think about the clean tape for VHS ? Is there one good for that or i need to open and clean it myself ?

Thanks a lot and best regards

[lollo]

I have bought a Mygica EZ Grabber and isn't bad, because it have the chip Conexant Polaris, the same of products like VC500 Diamond Multimedia.

Video chip is not the only important component. I do not have a personal experience, but probably this card is just another crap easycap device.

I have tried to capture with AVS Recorder and OBS (this last one i need to change some W10 configurations because it lose the video or the sound).

None are recommended software for capturing. Use AmarecTV or VirtualDub.

So i have read this very interesting post and i would like to test the capture with a TBC Panny.
I have found some Panasonic used : ES10, ES15, E55, EH50, EX79, all PAL version. Because i'm a little bit confused, wich one is the best to buy ?

ES10 has the strongest correction, but introducing more aggressive defects. All of the others suggested DVD-Recorders are more or less equivalent, with some specific feature in jitter correction for Sony or Pioneer devices. Search the forum to find posts from knowledgeable users Bogilein and oln for more details.

They do not replace a high-end S-VHS VCR with TBC and Y/C output. Are used as workaround when the player has not time base correction and/or Y/C output, or when the TBC of the VCR is not strong enough for tapes in bad conditions. But the quality is not the same.

In any case, this is the last of your problem. The priorities are the player, that should be a high end VCR, and the capture card, which should be one of the suggested ones. And the capture software, as said.

I have understood some problems of brightness on all this model, but i will use the Scart RGB and not S-Video to connect to Mygica or Intensity Shuttle.

It does not matter, you have brigthness pumping. Y/C is available on both S-Video output and SCART output. First is in general preferable because it does not have proximity to other signals in the routing of the board and in the connector like the second. And better cables exists.

Blackmagic cards are not recommended for analog SD capture, one of the last comparison here https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/410062-Which-capture-of-my-old-VHS-looks-the-best, many other samples can be found on the forums

And another thing, what do you think about the clean tape for VHS ? Is there one good for that or i need to open and clean it myself ?

Cleaning tapes are rubbish. Clean the video and audio heads (and the rest) yourself with Isopropanol Alcohol https://www.amazon.it/dp/B089W1ZP5W?ref_=pe_24968671_487309461_302_E_DDE_dt_1 and Chamois Swabs https://www.amazon.it/dp/B008OA81EA?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

[Thermaltake]

Cleaning tapes are rubbish. Clean the video and audio heads (and the rest) yourself with Isopropanol Alcohol https://www.amazon.it/dp/B089W1ZP5W?ref_=pe_24968671_487309461_302_E_DDE_dt_1 and Chamois Swabs https://www.amazon.it/dp/B008OA81EA?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

I clean my vcr with Lint-Free Cleaning paper, that chamois swabs are not available in my country for some reason.

[lollo]

Cleaning tapes are rubbish. Clean the video and audio heads (and the rest) yourself with Isopropanol Alcohol https://www.amazon.it/dp/B089W1ZP5W?ref_=pe_24968671_487309461_302_E_DDE_dt_1 and Chamois Swabs https://www.amazon.it/dp/B008OA81EA?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_asin_title

I clean my vcr with Lint-Free Cleaning paper, that chamois swabs are not available in my country for some reason.

It is ok as well, no problem! (the swabs are easier to use and better quality, but more expensive)

[Seleron]

Hi, I have a Panasonic DMR EH585 (as I mentioned a little above). What will be the difference in quality if I record the video from the VCR to a disk and then to a DVD (and from it to my computer) as opposed to recording the video from the VCR pass-through via HDMI and a capture card?

[rgr]

Hi, I have a Panasonic DMR EH585 (as I mentioned a little above). What will be the difference in quality if I record the video from the VCR to a disk and then to a DVD (and from it to my computer) as opposed to recording the video from the VCR pass-through via HDMI and a capture card?

Yes. With still scenes, the loss of quality is relatively small. The more movement, the greater the loss.

[Seleron]

So is it better to record via HDMI?

[rgr]

So is it better to record via HDMI?

Of course. Or via S-Video/SCART output.

[Seleron]

Okay, thanks

[Brad]

Updated post #1 with screenshots. Also added note about HDD units (thank you oln and Jarvis).

I think it looks kinda cluttered and less concise now. Maybe I should just link to another post containing the screenshots.

[Seleron]

By the way, looking through the Service Manual for my recorder I found such an option, which in theory is full passthrough (maybe it will be useful to someone, but it only works rather for analog output):

[Attachment 85592 - Click to enlarge]

[Brad]

By the way, looking through the Service Manual for my recorder I found such an option, which in theory is full passthrough (maybe it will be useful to someone, but it only works rather for analog output):

[Attachment 85592 - Click to enlarge]

What do you mean by "full passthrough"? It's basically like recording in XP mode to DVDR/HDD + playing back that MPEG-2, just without the wasted time writing the file. I tried it for fun one time.

The Service Mode full-screen colour generator function is also kinda neat.

[Seleron]

Okay I understand now, thanks for the explanation.