Panasonic DVD recorder passthrough settings (DMR-ES10, DMR-ES15, DMR-ES25)

[dellsam34]

Did any of the Laserdisc players with TBC provide similar "passthrough" performance, or was it just Panasonic's DVD recorder line? (assuming any of the laserdisc players actually had inputs... maybe they didn't)

The TBC in those budget models is designed to overcome the cheap less stable disc drive, It is not intended to time base video tape formats, But laserdisc players are output only devices, they cannot record to have a video input.

[lordsmurf]

Did any of the Laserdisc players with TBC

The TBC in those budget models

LDs didn't have TBCs whatsoever, just basic non-TBC frame sync at most.

[dellsam34]

Not sure if it shouldn't be called TBC, But works the same way a tape based format line TBC in a sense that it digitizes and stores the lines in a buffer, The difference is that LD signal is very strong since it's PWM not magnetic RF, all what the buffer does is delay the lines and output them back to back in a timed manner. Players equiped with this feature work in a similar way to the doomsday duplicator TBC, and they do the Y-C separation in the digital domain, so capturing S-Video from those players is better than composite, the difference is that the LD converts back to analog, the DD duplicator stays in digital and it's a modern approach so the ADC is more advanced.

[Sharc]

It's just another example of how generously and flexibly the term "TBC" is used.

[lollo]

so capturing S-Video from those players is better than composite, ... the difference is that the LD converts back to analog

Yes. The Y/C signal of 99% of LD player is poor. Only few high end devices have good comb filters and provide a good signal on S-Video output.

With my LD players (Pioneer DVL-901 and Pioneer CLD-315) I always capture composite (the signal stored in the disk) and leave the Y/C separation to the capture card or a specific pass-through device.

[Xhumeka]

Ok, gotcha... very interesting - thanks folks!!

[tugatomsk]

Hi. I know it's been a long time but I was wondering if you could enlighten me about the following.

I've learned that some VCRs have this annoying feature that I'd call "auto mono audio bandwith filter", in which they decide which frequencies are to be mitigated (based on tape quality, I guess), resulting in a rather lackluster mono audio quality. Furthermore, that filtering is kinda random, switching on and off on the same recording from the same VCR.

Do S-VHS VCRs have this annoying audio feature as well or can it be switched off like "edit mode off" for video? If so, does a S-VHS unit like the JVC HR-S7611 enable playing mono audio "as is"? The VCRshop has that model for sale.

[dellsam34]

Not sure what feature you're talking about but if there is both mono and HiFi stereo you always have the option to switch between the two or a mixture of both using the remote control. What's your VCR model?

[Alwyn]

Do S-VHS VCRs have this annoying audio feature as well or can it be switched off like "edit mode off" for video? If so, does a S-VHS unit like the JVC HR-S7611 enable playing mono audio "as is"? The VCRshop has that model for sale.

You should have started a different topic but to answer your question, as stated by Dellsham, S-VHS JVCs have selectable soundtracks. This is mine (a 5700):


[Attachment 70007 - Click to enlarge]

The unit will stay on the selected channel.

You could do a web search for the manual for the 7611 (Manualslib probably has it) to confirm is has a similar soundtrack function.

[tugatomsk]

Do S-VHS VCRs have this annoying audio feature as well or can it be switched off like "edit mode off" for video? If so, does a S-VHS unit like the JVC HR-S7611 enable playing mono audio "as is"? The VCRshop has that model for sale.

You should have started a different topic but to answer your question, as stated by Dellsham, S-VHS JVCs have selectable soundtracks. This is mine (a 5700):


[Attachment 70007 - Click to enlarge]

The unit will stay on the selected channel.

You could do a web search for the manual for the 7611 (Manualslib probably has it) to confirm is has a similar soundtrack function.

I know that you can select audio tracks in VHS, but that doesn't answer my question.

What I mean is the MONO track audio behaviour as shown in this spectral view image:


[Attachment 70008 - Click to enlarge]

Notice how the audio suddenly loses amplification and the 5kHz band surroundings are almost cut. This dramatically changes the audio. The VCR does this on its own. What's more, if I go to that bad part of the tape, the video may or may not provide a good audio response. It's almost random. I was wondering if there are any VCRs that can disable this automatic audio filtering.

EDIT: I created a new thread:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/409081-VHS-mono-audio-track-with-auto-filtering#post2685431

[tugatomsk]

Do S-VHS VCRs have this annoying audio feature as well or can it be switched off like "edit mode off" for video? If so, does a S-VHS unit like the JVC HR-S7611 enable playing mono audio "as is"? The VCRshop has that model for sale.

You should have started a different topic but to answer your question, as stated by Dellsham, S-VHS JVCs have selectable soundtracks. This is mine (a 5700):


[Attachment 70007 - Click to enlarge]

The unit will stay on the selected channel.

You could do a web search for the manual for the 7611 (Manualslib probably has it) to confirm is has a similar soundtrack function.

Interestingly, the HR-S7600 also has that menu on the manual. That "HIFI NORM" track is intriguing. Apparently, it's more HIFI + Normal mono track played at the same time for audio dubbing purposes. Drat.

[lollo]

Not sure if it helps, but here 2 samples (mono and stereo) captured with a JVC HR-S9500MS VCR. The audio setting is the Hi-Fi L-R:

|\     /|
| |   | |
|/     \|

Unfortunately they are not the raw captures (I do not have right now access to them) but the YouTube encoding (should be ok for your puropses):

S-VHS capture and basic AviSynth restoration 32 (128kbit_AAC).m4a



S-VHS capture and basic AviSynth restoration 17 (192kbit_AAC).m4a

[tugatomsk]

Not sure if it helps, but here 2 samples (mono and stereo) captured with a JVC HR-S9500MS VCR. The audio setting is the Hi-Fi L-R:

|\     /|
| |   | |
|/     \|

Unfortunately they are not the raw captures (I do not have right now access to them) but the YouTube encoding (should be ok for your puropses):


[Attachment 70012 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 70013 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 70014 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 70015 - Click to enlarge]

I understand what and why you're showing: the audio response difference between HIFI (stereo or not) and mono tracks.

But the VCR in question is mono only. That spectral view image I showed is from the same mono track. There is no HIFI track on that tape.

[lollo]

There is no HIFI track on that tape.

Here a sample from a commercial VHS with mono track only (IIRC), although not containing much details...

VHS capture and AviSynth restoration 1 (192kbit_AAC).m4a

[tugatomsk]

There is no HIFI track on that tape.

Here a sample from a commercial VHS with mono track only (IIRC), although not containing much details...


[Attachment 70018 - Click to enlarge]


[Attachment 70019 - Click to enlarge]

It seems stable, unlike my recording.

[lollo]

The JVC HR-S7611 should not be too different from JVC HR-S9500MS concering audio processing. But better check with VCR shop, in general they have a good technical support

[tugatomsk]

The JVC HR-S7611 should not be too different from JVC HR-S9500MS concering audio processing. But better check with VCR shop, in general they have a good technical support

Thanks, I'll do that.

[Brad]

You wrote in post #1, "For the first generation of PAL models, SCART output must be used. The other outputs suffer from a brightness variation."

I got my ES15 yesterday and I am wondering, how do I know if I have a "first generation"? What makes it a first generation? The year it was build, maybe?

At this point I don't know. It seems that the guide on Gleitz Forum now says that all PAL Panasonic DVD recorders have this issue.

Perhaps someone here who frequents the German forum can clarify.

I am not sure if I then have to "keep going" with RCA or can I use s-video? I am only asking because I assume that s-video has a better signal than RCA, correct?

Use SCART to S-Video adapter, and in the Setup menu option change the SCART output type from composite to S-Video.

[plehoediv]

[QUOTE=Brad;2685593]

You wrote in post #1, "For the first generation of PAL models, SCART output must be used. The other outputs suffer from a brightness variation."

I got my ES15 yesterday and I am wondering, how do I know if I have a "first generation"? What makes it a first generation? The year it was build, maybe?

At this point I don't know. It seems that the guide on Gleitz Forum now says that all PAL Panasonic DVD recorders have this issue.

Copy that. SCART it is.

Perhaps someone here who frequents the German forum can clarify.

Ja, Jungs, was geht!? Gibt mal Gas! LOL.

I am not sure if I then have to "keep going" with RCA or can I use s-video? I am only asking because I assume that s-video has a better signal than RCA, correct?

Use SCART to S-Video adapter, and in the Setup menu option change the SCART output type from composite to S-Video.

Roger that. Thanks for the fast reply...

Thanks.

[Bogilein]

Here is a comparison of 8 different Panasonic DVD/HDD recorders about the brightness flushing.

Panasonic HS2 (2002)
Panasonic E55 (2004)
Panasonic ES10 (2005)
Panasonic ES15 (2006)
Panasonic ES20 (2005)
Panasonic EH65 (2006)
Panasonic EX77 (2007)
Panasonic EH495 (2009)

Capture Setup:
SVHS VCR Hitachi S390 (no TBC) connected with a S-Video cable to the front inputs of the respective Panasonic DMR.
Then output once via S-Video into the capture card Hauppauge USB 2 Live.
And once via the S-Video output of the Scart adapter into the Hauppauge USB2 Live.
The whole as SPlitscreen-Video to compare the outputs.
Everyone should make up his own mind whether it bothers him or not.

[plehoediv]

Here is a comparison of 8 different Panasonic DVD/HDD recorders about the brightness flushing.

Panasonic HS2 (2002)
Panasonic E55 (2004)
Panasonic ES10 (2005)
Panasonic ES15 (2006)
Panasonic ES20 (2005)
Panasonic EH65 (2006)
Panasonic EX77 (2007)
Panasonic EH495 (2009)

Capture Setup:
SVHS VCR Hitachi S390 (no TBC) connected with a S-Video cable to the front inputs of the respective Panasonic DMR.
Then output once via S-Video into the capture card Hauppauge USB 2 Live.
And once via the S-Video output of the Scart adapter into the Hauppauge USB2 Live.
The whole as SPlitscreen-Video to compare the outputs.
Everyone should make up his own mind whether it bothers him or not.

Dude, that is great work and I really appreciate that!

Thanks.

For my German friends:

Altobelli! Wie geil ist das denn? Super!

Vielen Dank.

[plehoediv]

BTW, I forgot to ask:

Does it make a difference if I use a SCART to S-Video adapter for $5 bucks or for $40 bucks?

Thanks.

P.S. Just to double check: SCART is better than Y, Pb/Cb und Pr/Cr? Right?

EDIT: Just asked ChatGPT and here the answer I got:

The short answer is that it depends on the situation.

For most people, using a high-end video cable will not make a noticeable difference in picture quality. This is especially true for digital signals like HDMI, where the signal either gets transmitted or it doesn't, with little to no in-between.

However, there are some situations where using a high-end video cable may be necessary. For example, if you have a very long cable run (over 50 feet), using a high-quality cable can help ensure that the signal remains strong and stable over the entire length of the cable. Similarly, if you are using a very high-resolution display (such as 4K or 8K), a higher-quality cable may be needed to ensure that the signal can handle the increased bandwidth.

Ultimately, whether or not a high-end video cable makes a difference will depend on the specific situation and equipment being used. It's always a good idea to do some research and read reviews before purchasing a cable, and to make sure that the cable you choose is compatible with your devices and meets your needs.

[lollo]

Here is a comparison of 8 different Panasonic DVD/HDD recorders about the brightness flushing.

Thanks Bogilein, great concrete stuff, as always!

[Skiller]

Here is a comparison of 8 different Panasonic DVD/HDD recorders about the brightness flushing.

Panasonic HS2 (2002)
Panasonic E55 (2004)
Panasonic ES10 (2005)
Panasonic ES15 (2006)
Panasonic ES20 (2005)
Panasonic EH65 (2006)
Panasonic EX77 (2007)
Panasonic EH495 (2009)

Nice comparison, very well done.

The brightness pumping is clearly there for all the machines shown, except the first two. Intensity does vary, apparently.

This was first discovered 10 years ago in 2013, so I'm really wondering why it takes so long for it to become common knowledge to use Scart only* with PAL Panasonics.

* Edit: or HDMI

[Alwyn]

First I've heard of it. I was aware of the over-boosted white levels, but this isn't the same, is it?

[Skiller]

No, not the same. It's a brightness echo or pumping (see Bogilein's video) whenever there is a sudden strong change in overall brightness of the current few frames. It's rather difficult to spot without a test sequence.

The issue arises because of the way the signal is internally duplicated off the lines that go to the Scart connector. As in Scart gets the original signal, whereas separate S-Video and Composite connectors get the inferior signal copy, thus should be avoided. Audio is not affected.

[Alwyn]

Thanks Skiller, yes, that test is a pretty tough ask and would probably only occur at a scene change; I very much doubt that it would be noticeable amoungst the conniptions a video camera's exposure controls would have if the lighting changed that much over a few frames in a continuous shot.

[oln]

Are HDMI and component outputs affected?

[Alwyn]

Are HDMI and component outputs affected?

Just did the same test on my EZ-48 with a Startech USB3HDCAP. HDMI and Component are not affected. S-video was, as per Bogilein's test.

The EH-57 behaves the same as the EZ-48.

Both machines are PAL.

[tugatomsk]

Here is a comparison of 8 different Panasonic DVD/HDD recorders about the brightness flushing.

Panasonic HS2 (2002)
Panasonic E55 (2004)
Panasonic ES10 (2005)
Panasonic ES15 (2006)
Panasonic ES20 (2005)
Panasonic EH65 (2006)
Panasonic EX77 (2007)
Panasonic EH495 (2009)

Capture Setup:
SVHS VCR Hitachi S390 (no TBC) connected with a S-Video cable to the front inputs of the respective Panasonic DMR.
Then output once via S-Video into the capture card Hauppauge USB 2 Live.
And once via the S-Video output of the Scart adapter into the Hauppauge USB2 Live.
The whole as SPlitscreen-Video to compare the outputs.
Everyone should make up his own mind whether it bothers him or not.

Excellent test video! Even though in my opinion the brightness variation doesn't bother me personally, it may bother others.

My EH50 was not included in this test and I can't seem to find the brightness issue with it. However, I have a different kind of issue when using the SCART to S-Video & Composite adapter: it introduces a noticeable noise, like small but annoying diagonal white lines. My adapter is kind of cheap, but are there any quality adapters for sale?