Vhs capture advice.

[Leanoric]

Ah ok, hopefully its just interference then. The vcr hasnt got s-video unfortunately, just scart. I’ll move the vcr to a different location and try different cables. I have got an es10, so I’ll try using that as a passthrough as well and see if it makes a difference.

[Brad]

Don't see whether you mentioned how you're adapting the SCART output, but make sure you use SCART-to-composite (not to S-Video) for this plain VHS VCR.

[Sharc]

The vcr hasnt got s-video unfortunately, just scart. I’ll move the vcr to a different location and try different cables. I have got an es10, so I’ll try using that as a passthrough as well and see if it makes a difference.

Connect like:
VCR composite (SCART) out -> ES10 composite in -> ES10 S-Video out -> Elgato S-Video in.
This will eliminate (or significantly reduce) dotcrawl and rainbows.

[Eric-jan]

Ah ok, hopefully its just interference then. The vcr hasnt got s-video unfortunately, just scart. I’ll move the vcr to a different location and try different cables. I have got an es10, so I’ll try using that as a passthrough as well and see if it makes a difference.

SCART can have s-video in it, did you check your vcr manual ? (you never mentioned which vcr you're using… model name/number?)
It's worth a try. dot crawl comes mostly from composite video (the internal composing of this vcr could be bad)
But i doubt it's dot crawl because dot crawl is between solid colors.

[Leanoric]

Ah ok, hopefully its just interference then. The vcr hasnt got s-video unfortunately, just scart. I’ll move the vcr to a different location and try different cables. I have got an es10, so I’ll try using that as a passthrough as well and see if it makes a difference.

SCART can have s-video in it, did you check your vcr manual ? (you never mentioned which vcr you're using… model name/number?)
It's worth a try. dot crawl comes mostly from composite video (the internal composing of this vcr could be bad)
But i doubt it's dot crawl because dot crawl is between solid colors.

Yes I’ve checked user and service manual and no mention of s-video. Interestingly, there is a section in the manual that explains how to turn off the modulator if you are having interference problems, maybe that would help in this case?

There is an s-vhs vcr being auctioned on ebay at the moment which I am looking to buy but until then I have ordered an s-video cable and will connect the es10 to the elgato with it and see if that helps.

[Alwyn]

There is an s-vhs vcr being auctioned on ebay at the moment

Be careful, make sure as best you can that it actually works. If I was in Europe and couldn't actually check the machine, I'd seriously think about getting an SVHS VCR from vcrshop.com.

[rgr]

Thanks for all the input guys. I’ve stuck with the cheap card for the time being as I dont want to waste money on something that I cant get working with win11. To be fair to it, it does actually work with win11, even the sound seems to be in sync on what I’ve done so far. I’ve been playing around with the output settings on obs but to be honest I’m struggling to understand what the right settings are to use and what will work best. Video signal/output/capture etc is something I had no prior knowledge of and I’m finding it quite complicated.

My pc is actually brand new, I bought the cheapest one in the store as its only really for the vhs and camcorder capture. I didnt do nearly enough research before getting into this!

I have this HDMI capturing device. Poor, drops frames, average quality (sends MJPG to computer). I do not use.

[Eric-jan]

oops, wrong thread.

[Leanoric]

There is an s-vhs vcr being auctioned on ebay at the moment

Be careful, make sure as best you can that it actually works. If I was in Europe and couldn't actually check the machine, I'd seriously think about getting an SVHS VCR from vcrshop.com.

Its actually never been used. It was sealed in the box but the seller has opened it to take photos. Its a later model, so not going to be as good as the older ones that are recommended here, but I dont want the hassle of getting something thats had a lot of use and might stop working soon after I get it. I’ve already bought and had to return a couple of vcr’s that were faulty. Plenty of people watching and bidding on it though, so it might end up going for silly money.

Theres a couple of 6 head sealed ones on there as well, which I might fall back on if I dont get the s-vhs.

[Eric-jan]

There are really no thrift stores in your neighbourhood ? for the prices at the thrift stores you can take a few gambles…. compaired to the hundreds of pounds you have to pay on the internet…

Yes I’ve checked user and service manual and no mention of s-video. Interestingly, there is a section in the manual that explains how to turn off the modulator if you are having interference problems, maybe that would help in this case?

could be, just try that, depends also the quality of the SCART cable you're using, cheap ones can be un-shielded, and pick-up interferrence, or the modulator will do that internally, and i guess you don't use the modulator anyway.
Also check any menu item of the vcr settings, "AUTO" settings are usally a safe bet, otherwise just ask here for that.

[Alwyn]

Its actually never been used.

Fair enough, good luck, I hate auctions.

I picked up a couple of 6-head normal VCRs that were brand new; I can't really tell the difference between them and the second-third-forth?? hand JVC SVHS VCR I also have, although both machines, DVD/VCR combos, have S-Video Out, which may sway you towards a second-hand S-VHS machine if you don't get the auction one. Then again, I also have an almost-new LG 6-head non- S-Video machine and it is very good too!

[Eric-jan]

Yes, LG vcr's are also nice onces i have a LG4981, they can have nice options to set, also multi-system wise, but have no TBC functionality, so you need still passthrough, you can have luck with a Panasonic recorder combo from the thrift store for that...

[Leanoric]

The vcr hasnt got s-video unfortunately, just scart. I’ll move the vcr to a different location and try different cables. I have got an es10, so I’ll try using that as a passthrough as well and see if it makes a difference.

Connect like:
VCR composite (SCART) out -> ES10 composite in -> ES10 S-Video out -> Elgato S-Video in.
This will eliminate (or significantly reduce) dotcrawl and rainbows.

“Panasonic ES10: Use the front inputs, the comb filter only works if you use the composite inputs. The noise reduction you should turn off. As output you must use the scart 1 connector with an adapter which you can use with an s-video cable. All other outputs have brightness variations.”


Do you think there is still a benefit in using an s-video cable if it has to be used on the scart socket with an adapter?

[oln]

As decks that were still made from the mid 2000s they're not too bad yeah. Seem pretty reliable mechanically unlike the samsung and funai units of the time. I've had issues with noise/whine on the linear audio playback on some of them though which I haven't managed to find the cause of.

It's not too surprising that multiple combo decks would give relatively similar output. Other than some of the earliest ones (like the early JVC ones) most combos (and other vcrs from like 2003/4 and on) will be using a all in one video IC from either Sanyo or Hitachi afaik so a lot of the decks from one region would have the same video circuitry despite being different brands (though setup could vary a bit and some allowed some adjustment as well.) For combos with dvd-recording capability there was a lot of variance in what was used to turn the analog signal into digital so that will vary quite a bit.

[oln]

Do you think there is still a benefit in using an s-video cable if it has used on the scart socket with an adapter?

If you mean from the ES10 to capture card, yeah it is. f you use composite you add an extra step of combining and the separating the color and brigtness data which can lead to some artifacts like dot crawl. Alternatively you can also use the component output (make sure it's set to interlaced and not progressive) if you have a capture card that supports that. (Though from a low res source like vhs the difference between component and s-video out on the dvd recorder isn't really noticeable.)

[dellsam34]

A note about Y-C pins (S-Video) output on regular VCRs, Regular non S-VHS VCRs will not have Y and C pins in the SCART connector, Often Y is shorted to CVBS (Composite) on some Chinese SCART cables and adapters and may cause interference in the chroma or mediocre image, Get old stock or used cables and adapters from back in the day, those are the only ones built to specifications. If you must use modern low quality hardware check the pinout and correct as needed. If no shielding found discard it.

[Leanoric]

My new cables haven't arrived yet but I've had a play around, this time repositioning the vcr and also using the es10 as a passthrough for the first time.

I think that the es10 has made a big difference. Picture is nowhere near perfect as to be expected but is definitely much better.

The first picture is without the es10, the second with.





There seems to be what almost looks like interlace lines, except they're not, around the edges of things though. Deinterlacing doesn't make any difference to them.

I've zoomed in on a screenshot for picture 3 to try and show you what I mean, any ideas?

[Sharc]

A massive improvement already.
What you get is probably still some residual dotcrawl which can be difficult to eliminate. I don't know the ES-10 particular settings, but if there is a "comb Filter" or "3D-Y/C separation" or "3D NR" or a similar menu item switch this function ON.
Looks to me like the captured video is progressive (PsF).
For better advice upload a few seconds sample of that captured scene.

[Leanoric]

A massive improvement already.
What you get is probably still some residual dotcrawl which can be difficult to eliminate. I don't know the ES-10 particular settings, but if there is a "comb Filter" or "3D-Y/C separation" or "3D NR" or a similar menu item switch this function ON.
Looks to me like the captured video is progressive (PsF).
For better advice upload a few seconds sample of that captured scene.

Yes comb filter was on, I used the settings advised in the passthrough sticky so I think that was all done correctly. I’ve hopefully got a new, better vcr coming next week and I’ve ordered new cables including an s-video, so hopefully that makes a difference.

I’m not actually sure how to post video clips, how do I go about it?

[dellsam34]

Make sure you files are 499MB each max and click on the "Upload files/Manage attachments" button at the bottom left of the text box just below "Show your signature" check box.

[Bwaak]

The second picture looks much better aside of dot crawl. SVideo should make them disappear.

[Leanoric]

Here's some clips to have a look at guys.

Big improvement since using the the es10, although still doesnt look quite right. I'm not sure how to describe it, fuzzy/flickery? Maybe its the limitations of the equipment I'm currently using? I'll be getting a new vcr and various cables this week and I will get a better capture card than the elgato at some point when I find out what will work with windows 11.

Two head Hitachi vcr scart > es10 scart> elgato video > virtualdub 1.10.4 using lagarith.

[Alwyn]

A couple of oddities in your captures that are different to my LAGS captures; whether right or wrong, I don't know but I'll throw them out there for consideration:

Video format:
LAGS: your captures are in RGB, whereas I think YUY2 is desired. Video>Compression>Lagarith>Configure (files will be much smaller in YUY2)

Capture resolution> yours are 720x566, I think the desired for PAL is 720x576. Video>Capture Pin>Output Size

Audio: Yours is 44,100hz, I think desired is 48,000hz. Where that is set, I don't know; all I've got is Audio>Raw Capture Format, PCM 48,000hz is the only one shown.

Lastly, your captures appear to be Progressive when they should be Interlaced.

The above may be the result of your Save As.

[dellsam34]

Probably rookie mistakes, Cropping should always be followed by adding an equivalent of black lines (masking) otherwise resize to a higher legal resolution directly from the cropped resolution (incur a slight loss), Audio should not be processed and left alone at 48KHz.

Note: Pay attention to the number formulation, In the imperial countries like US and UK the "," means thousand, and "." means fraction, So you either write 44,100Hz or 44.1KHz, In the metric countries you write like this 44100Hz or 44,1KHz. I missed my metric years.

[Leanoric]

A couple of oddities in your captures that are different to my LAGS captures; whether right or wrong, I don't know but I'll throw them out there for consideration:

Video format:
LAGS: your captures are in RGB, whereas I think YUY2 is desired. Video>Compression>Lagarith>Configure (files will be much smaller in YUY2)

Capture resolution> yours are 720x566, I think the desired for PAL is 720x576. Video>Capture Pin>Output Size

Audio: Yours is 44,100hz, I think desired is 48,000hz. Where that is set, I don't know; all I've got is Audio>Raw Capture Format, PCM 48,000hz is the only one shown.

Lastly, your captures appear to be Progressive when they should be Interlaced.

The above may be the result of your Save As.

I thought that I had been capturing at all of the correct settings that you have listed. Just gone back and checked, and the one mistake I had been making was when I selected lagarith, I had failed to hit configure and change the rgb default to yuy2. I was just clicking on lagarith and then ok.

Audio had been set to 48,000hz and resolution was set to 720x576. Would capturing in rgb change the resoution to 720x566? I did notice in handbrake the other day that the file size was 702x566?

Is there a setting to change my capture from progressive to interlaced?

Probably rookie mistakes, Cropping should always be followed by adding an equivalent of black lines (masking) otherwise resize to a higher legal resolution directly from the cropped resolution (incur a slight loss), Audio should not be processed and left alone at 48KHz.

Note: Pay attention to the number formulation, In the imperial countries like US and UK the "," means thousand, and "." means fraction, So you either write 44,100Hz or 44.1KHz, In the metric countries you write like this 44100Hz or 44,1KHz. I missed my metric years.

Audio was definitely set to 48,000hz, its the only option.

[Leanoric]

Guys, I’ve just realised why its 720x566.

I was playing around with the cropping function the other day, trying to get rid of a bar of distorted capture that ran along the bottom. I set the y2 offset to 10 to get rid of it and had forgotten that I had done it.

I take it that this is not the correct thing to do?

Probably rookie mistakes, Cropping should always be followed by adding an equivalent of black lines (masking) otherwise resize to a higher legal resolution directly from the cropped resolution (incur a slight loss)

Just reread your post. So its ok to capture with y2 offset in cropping set to 10 to get rid of bar along the bottom, but I need to add 10 lines of black? Do I do this after capture in editing?

Also, will it not look odd with just black along the bottom? Do I need to add to top as well?

[Alwyn]

Is there a setting to change my capture from progressive to interlaced?

Audio was definitely set to 48,000hz, its the only option

The files you posted for us: were they made using "Direct Stream Copy"? Because all captures will be Interlaced and 48khz and they could only be changed if Full Compression and a filter or two were involved for the Save As.

I was playing around with the cropping function the other day, trying to get rid of a bar of distorted capture that ran along the bottom. I set the y2 offset to 10 to get rid of it and had forgotten that I had done it.

I take it that this is not the correct thing to do?

I'll leave that to the cropping experts before I give you my ideas! But yes, crop away. You need to do it on the sides as well to maintain the correct pixel proportion after you've captured, ie in "post".

BTW, that distorted bar at the bottom is VHS head-switching noise, and is present in varying heights/amounts in all VHS captures.

[Alwyn]

I don't have an ES-10, but on the PAL ES-15 is an additional NR setting: "Display" button on remote, the choose Picture.

I've just noticed for the 15: a "progressive" on/off selection in Setup>Connection menu. That could be why your captures are progressive instead of interlaced.

[Leanoric]

Thanks Alwyn, I checked the es10 settings and progressive was off, while there though, I noticed there are settings for av1 and av2. Av1 which is the output Im using was set to rgb. Ive now changed that to s-video as my cable has just turned up.

Just done a very quick capture to test it out and I think most of the dot crawl has been eliminated, its again much better.

The whole picture does seem to be flickering though, any ideas what could cause that?

[Sharc]

The video may be progressive (PsF), even on VHS. Nevertheless I re-encoded it as interlaced. That's debatable though.
Just a quick shot with a bit of denoising, colorsharpening and levels adjustment: