USB Capture for VHS and DV8

[JonnyAlpha]

Hi,

I have a load of DV8 and VHS in desperate need for converting to digital media for future prosperity.
The last time i tried this I had a Haupagge PCI Card in a Windows 7 PC, but that's been sat in the garage unused and probably does not work anymore.
So time has move on about 15 years and I need to hit this again.
I have been looking at USB capture devices on Amazon and eBay but thought before I buy cheap of expensive, I'd better ask the experts.

I have been reading through some of the threads on here and seem to have whittle it down to two USB products:

I/OData GV-USB
Hauppage USB Live2 (Amazon lists this as a Haupagge 610 USB Live 2?)

Which of these devices are best? The I-O data seems to come with Japanese drivers, but ships from the UK and the Haupagge ships from the US?
Both around the same price.

For playback i don't have a VHS player, so I will have to keep my eye out for one. To play the tapes I will use the Camcorder (Panasonic NV-D65B), which has S-Video and Composite Video out.

I've read that I should capture using YUV 4:2:2 lossless at 720x576 (PAL) or 720x480 (NTSC) with AmarecTV or VirtualDub.

Thoughts on my chosen route would be most appreciated.
I've been out of this game for many years and even then I wasn't that great.

[Alwyn]

I use the GV-USB2 almost exclusively. My Live2 is in a box on the shelf. Anybody want it?

The I-O data seems to come with Japanese drivers

Not really in Japanese: the instructions are in Japanese, but that is not an issue as you can use this guide to install it:

https://iotku.pw/gvusb2-guide/

For playback i don't have a VHS player, so I will have to keep my eye out for one.

Try to get one with an inbuilt TBC, an example being the JVC 7600. If I was in Europe, I would have a good look at VCRShop.com.

I've read that I should capture using YUV 4:2:2 lossless at 720x576 (PAL) or 720x480 (NTSC) with AmarecTV or VirtualDub.

Correct! You'll also need to install a capture codec such as HUFFYUV (a faff to install on Win 10), Lagarith, UT Video. I use the paid MagicYUV. In my view, AmarecTV is simpler and more reliable for audio sync than VDub.

[JonnyAlpha]

So,
I’ve found the Gav-USB2 on Amazon UK, but it ships from Amazon.com and won’t arrive until mid Jan. I have found loads on eBay all from Japan and it’s either extortionate delivery charges or same time of arrival. I’ve found one seller with free deliver on Mon 4th Jan (about £64 for the item).
Always dubious about copies on eBay? But I need to do this before Christmas.
BTW do these work with Apple Macs or Raspberry Pis (just a thought).
What’s wrong with your Hauppage, is it just not as good?

[Alwyn]

I did a comparison last year. The basic upshot was that the GV handles bad video better if there is no stabiliser in the capture chain (VCR Line TBC or Panasonic ES-10/15-type DVD Recorder), but that the Live2 performed OK with a TBC/Stabiliser.

Some posts to look at:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/401570-Hauppauge-USB-Live2-vs-IO-Data-GV-USB2

Interesting comment I found from 2015:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/369761-Startech-USB3HDCAP-opinions#post2370996

And here are my posts when i bought the Live2:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/406066-What-is-best-capture-device/page3#post2660473

Put it this way: if your tapes are good and you get a VCR with Line TBC (such as something like that 7600 I mentioned) and you have a Christmas deadline, the Live2 will do. Otherwise, I suggest you wait for the GV.

[Alwyn]

BTW do these work with Apple Macs or Raspberry Pis (just a thought).

Don't know the answer to that; the box has only Windows as the OS.

The current prices on the GV have increased by at least 50% in the last few months!

[DB83]

What appears to have been overlooked is that either of these devices is appropiate for DV8 unless you capture them as analogue. True that lossless analogue is better than DV but your camcorder must convert internally in the first instance.

[JonnyAlpha]

What appears to have been overlooked is that either of these devices is appropiate for DV8 unless you capture them as analogue. True that lossless analogue is better than DV but your camcorder must convert internally in the first instance.

Sorry, you’ve lost me, can you explain?

[Alwyn]

What DB3 meant was "neither", not "either". Good point.

@Johnny, what type of video 8 tapes and model camcorder do you have exactly, and do you have a Firewire port on your computer?

There are three types of 8mm tapes: Video8, VideoHi8 and Digital8.

[DB83]

You said you have DV8 tapes. These are digital tapes not analogue like VHS. I assume you will be using the camcorder you shot them with. But do clarify that.

The standard way, with the original or compatable camcorder, is a direct digital transfer using the DV port on the camcorder into a PC with a iee1394 card and not over usb.


But if you actually have s8 or Hi-8 tapes then these are analgue so usb is then appropiate.

[JonnyAlpha]

What DB3 meant was "neither", not "either". Good point.

@Johnny, what type of video 8 tapes and model camcorder do you have exactly, and do you have a Firewire port on your computer?

There are three types of 8mm tapes: Video8, VideoHi8 and Digital8.

Looks like these are Mini DV cassettes.


[Attachment 75139 - Click to enlarge]

The Camcorder is I believe a Panasonic NV-DS65 like this one.

[JonnyAlpha]

You said you have DV8 tapes. These are digital tapes not analogue like VHS. I assume you will be using the camcorder you shot them with. But do clarify that.

The standard way, with the original or compatable camcorder, is a direct digital transfer using the DV port on the camcorder into a PC with a iee1394 card and not over usb.


But if you actually have s8 or Hi-8 tapes then these are analgue so usb is then appropiate.

See above these are Mini DV tapes so what are my options? Will the I-O GV2 or the Hauppage Live2? Or should I try and resurrect my old Windows PC which has a Hauppage WinTV HVR card in it I think?
I was hoping to do this with my Windows 10 Laptop / MacBook or Raspberry Pi 4

[DB83]

Ok. Mini-DV is different to DV8 (in terms of cassette size) but the principle is the same.

So, again, it is potentially possible to transfer over usb - check your user manual and what connector cable(s) you have.

Edit: Not so straightforward to transfer DV with a Laptop. See various, and recent, threads about this.


You Windows PC may well have a firewire port so do check that out

[Bwaak]

DV must be trasferred digitally, usually via Firewire. Some models can send it over USB, but not yours. In a pinch, SVideo works too.

[JonnyAlpha]

DV must be trasferred digitally, usually via Firewire. Some models can send it over USB, but not yours. In a pinch, SVideo works too.

I thought the whole point of the IO Data GV and Hauppage Love 2 was to convert everything so it can be transferred over USB.
My old PC does not have a FireWire card, last time I tried this I used a Hauppage HVR 1300 DVB card.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/325863065838?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo...mis&media=COPY

[Bwaak]

I thought the whole point of the IO Data GV and Hauppage Love 2 was to convert everything so it can be transferred over USB.

The whole point is they are A/D converters. DV video is already digital.

[DB83]

BTW I said 'Port' ie a plug at the back (many older motherboards had this - mine does) as opposed to a card which you plug in to a slot typically PCI-E on the motherboard

That Hauppauge is the old style PCI (not PCI-E) and works the same way as either of usb-Live2 or the IO Data (as long as there are drivers available for it - many PCI cards 'died' beyond Win98. I know since I have one 'resting' in my mb)

[JonnyAlpha]

Ok. Mini-DV is different to DV8 (in terms of cassette size) but the principle is the same.

So, again, it is potentially possible to transfer over usb - check your user manual and what connector cable(s) you have.

Edit: Not so straightforward to transfer DV with a Laptop. See various, and recent, threads about this.


You Windows PC may well have a firewire port so do check that out

Looking at the Panasonic Manual it is supposed to have a DV port on the side:


[Attachment 75140 - Click to enlarge]

My old Desktop PCs (I have a few) do not have Firewire.

So I think to convert my my Mini DV Tapes I need to do the following:

1. Resurrect one of my old Desktops, preferably one with a PCI-e slot.

2. Find a PCI-e Firewire Card (or buy one like this)

3. Get a suitable 4 pin DV to 6 pin Firewire Cable like this one.

4. Find some suitable capture and editing software. Would I be looking at same YUV 4:2:2 lossless at 720x576 (PAL) or 720x480 (NTSC) with AmarecTV or VirtualDub, or as this is already Digital would something else be more suitable?

I have a Macbook Pro with 2 x , what I believe are Thunderbolt 2, ports on the side. Could I get a DV to Firewire 6 pin and then a Firewire to Thunderbolt adaptor and use something on the Mac?

[dellsam34]

I thought the whole point of the IO Data GV and Hauppage Love 2 was to convert everything so it can be transferred over USB.

They do, but like everyone said above, DV is digital, so when you use the analog outputs of your digital camcorder you are converting and separating digital signal to analog video and analog audio, then the USB capture device is converting it back to digital and combining the video and audio, The losses incur from this process are probably unnoticeable to the average viewer, however you are introducing the inherit problems of consumer capture devices, such as, video to audio sync problems, frame drops/inserts ... etc.

If you have a desktop, you can get a firewire card, there are plenty of threads here covering this.

If you have a desktop/laptop with Win 10 or less you can get one of these Pinnacle firewire to USB emulators, I made a demonstration video here and posted about it in several threads like this one.

If you have a thunderbolt in your computer, you can get one of those Apple adapters that convert iLink (firewire) to thunderbolt, see this video.

In all 3 cases you will be using SCLive to transfer DV stream to computer.

[DB83]

Well if you have a PC pre Win10 with a pci-e slot then a card is prefered. However, the consensus for the older systems is a card with a Texas Instrument chipset wheras for a system with Win11 a Via Chipset, as Alwyn will sure tell you, is the way to go. Win10 is the odd ball since it is still TI cards AFAIK but use legacy drivers since MS removed support for them.

Whatever route you take you can not use AmarecTv or Virtualdub for DV. (Unless you forget firewire and go down the altenative analogue route from the camcorder) You use WinDV or SC-Live.


A Macbook is another option as you describe but I suggest you look at the dedicated Mac sub-forum for best advice since neither of these softwares work on a Mac. There are also tons of videos on YouTube that show how to do it.

[JonnyAlpha]

I have a PC that I was using as a HTPC under my TV, Windows 7 stopped booting on it a while ago and I've never managed to fix it.
Just spotted a Firewire connector on the front panel, prettu sure there is also a spare PCI-e slot buried under there somewhere.


[Attachment 75141 - Click to enlarge]

I may re-install Windows 7 on it and see how I get on.

Thanks everyone for your help thusfar

[DB83]

That connector looks DOA

[JonnyAlpha]

That connector looks DOA

Yes it needs a clean.
I am looking at a couple of PCI-e Texas Instrument Cards on FB and eBay.
Also put a wanted out for a Pinnacle Studio Movie Box 510 or 710 USB

[Bwaak]

My old Desktop PCs (I have a few) do not have Firewire.

So I think to convert my my Mini DV Tapes I need to do the following:

1. Resurrect one of my old Desktops, preferably one with a PCI-e slot.
2. Find a PCI-e Firewire Card
3. Get a suitable 4 pin DV to 6 pin Firewire Cable.
4. Find some suitable capture and editing software. Would I be looking at same YUV 4:2:2 lossless at 720x576 (PAL) or 720x480 (NTSC) with AmarecTV or VirtualDub, or as this is already Digital would something else be more suitable?

You will be looking at DV.

[Alwyn]

Find some suitable [DV] capture and editing software. Would I be looking at

You would be looking at Scenalyzer for "capture/transfer". My guide here.

As far as editing goes, once you've "transferred" it, it is the same as your other captures. You can edit the DV AVI in any editor you like. Scenalyzer has rudimentary cut/split/trim/join features, staying in DV format, but you'll eventually have to encode it to MP4 with another program.

[Alwyn]

While we're waiting for Johnny to get his bits and bobs, here's a comparison between an analogue capture (IOData GV-USB2, S-Video AmarecTV, LAGS) and Firewire DV transfer of the same Mini DV tape I shot this morning with a Panny GS25. The only processing I've done is deinterlaced (YADIF) both to 50fps in Virtual Dub, and cropped and resized both to 768x576 (square pixels).

Both files had audio but I have muted that for the comparison Combo file.

Which one is which and why?

[JonnyAlpha]

While we're waiting for Johnny to get his bits and bobs, here's a comparison between an analogue capture (IOData GV-USB2, S-Video AmarecTV, LAGS) and Firewire DV transfer of the same Mini DV tape I shot this morning with a Panny GS25. The only processing I've done is deinterlaced (YADIF) both to 50fps in Virtual Dub, and cropped and resized both to 768x576 (square pixels).

Both files had audio but I have muted that for the comparison Combo file.

Which one is which and why?

Thought I could tell the difference, but then I wasn't so sure

[DB83]

Oh my.

Alwyn is now trying to be extra 'smart' here. Once a video has been re-encoded, resized, maybe more than once since two are now combined as one you can hardly tell the difference between them. Maybe that is what Alwyn is trying to say. Lossless is great. DV is fine. But at the end of the day both, handled properly, will give acceptable results.


More so since different cameras, or atleast in this case the method of transfer, will handle light, exposure, differently. So if I was to guess, and for the reasons already given since one can not give solid proof, I would put my 50/50 dime in to the right-side being the pure DV


Now if Alwyn wanted to be true he would state which was which and give his own reasoning. And be prepared for the vitrol that follows.

[JonnyAlpha]

So, today I managed to take a look at what hardware I had around.

I have a HTPC in my house that will not boot into windows, so I re-installed Windows 7 on it. Installed OK, problem is I don't have the driver disks for the motherboard and for some reason, the LAN port is not recognised and neither is a WiFi adaptor recognised when I plug it into a know working USB socket. Damm frustrating. Decided to download the drivers on my Macbook and transfer using a USB memory stick. Damm memory stick isn't recognised either
This motherboard is ASRock FM2A75M-DGS, it has a PCI-e x 16, PCI-e x 1 as well as PCI slot. In it I have an ASUS nVidia Geforce GTX750TI which uses the PCI-e x 16, but covers the PCI-e x 1 slot.

I found and ordered a Syba 2 Port 1394B Firewire Card that has 1394a and 2 x 1394b and a 1394a onboard header. This is a PCI-e x 1 board, so I needed to remove the ASUS Gfx card to install it, when it arrives. The Syba uses a Texas Instruments Chipset, which I have read on here is needed for pre windows 10.

This meant using the onboard GFX VGA and DVI. The PC sits under my main TV (A Panasonic Plasma TV), so as I have removed the ASUS card that has HDMI output, I had to use the DVI to HDMI cable. When I booted the PC the display is shifted to the right so the last 1/4 section is displayed on the right. May fix this once I install the onboard Gfx drivers, as the basic options did not seem to do anything (cannot change the Hertz).

I had a hunt around the garage but could not find a Firewire cable. Don't think I every had one. I am pretty sure I used to have a Firewire card, but had a clear out a while ago

Not to worry, I'll get it working

I also enlisted the help of a friend of mine who use to work on CCTV and had a load of DV gear. He is going to have a look in his loft as he may have a Mini DV player and cables.

Annoyingly I am recovering from a hernia op so having to take things slow

[Alwyn]

Alwyn is now trying to be extra 'smart' here. Once a video has been re-encoded, resized, maybe more than once since two are now combined as one you can hardly tell the difference between them. Maybe that is what Alwyn is trying to say. Lossless is great. DV is fine. But at the end of the day both, handled properly, will give acceptable results.

Not trying to be smart at all. I'm not like that. What I wanted to demo was that the result of the analogue process will match the result of a DV process, so where a Firewire (or DV>USB) solution is not attainable, all is not lost and a great result can still be obtained from your DV tapes.

I did encode each file twice: once through VDub for basic Deinterlacing and cropping of the analogue capture, and then in my editor, but only when putting the two videos side by side and to sync them.

Now... the big reveal you've been waiting for... the DV file is on the left. I had to slightly crop the right (analogue) file to get rid of the black side bars that came with the capture.

All that said, a DV transfer is worthwhile chasing because you retain the tape's timecode, allowing dating of the clips as well as accurate scene-splitting.

[JonnyAlpha]

So my woes continue to challenge me. I found and purchased a Syba 2 port Firewire Card on FB MarketPlace.
I opted for this one becuase the intended machine would be running Window 7 and I'd read on here that pre Windows 10 you'd need a card with a Texas Instruments Chipset.

It arrived and with excitement I installed it in my AMD FM2A75M-DGS motherboard based PC, first using the PCIe x 1 slot.

On booting there was no 'Found New Hardware' activity and when looking in Device Manager, 1394 is not listed anywhere.
I then spent nearly a day and a half troubleshooting, tried putting it in the PCIe x 16 slot, trying to find any BIOS or Windows settings that needed to be changed. Installing different Legacy drivers, following this guide (linked from the manufacturers website).

Absolutely nothing so far has worked. Either the Motherboard does not like this card or the card is DOA. It was bought second hand although looking at the listing the guy selected condition as 'New'. We have great communication before and during shipping.

My options now are:
1. Try to resurrect one of my other PCs (I have a couple to try).
2. Try my wife's iMac (its an old 2008 model, but low and behold it has 2 x FireWire ports on the back (400 and 800).
3. Buy a different TI or Via chipset PCIe card.
4. Buy the I-O Data DV - USB AD converter.

Any thoughts on the PCIe issue? Or my options?
I am going to post up on the Mac thread to get info on doing this on the iMac (buts its not the fastest and definitely not very up to date, hence wanting to to get the PC working).