Why NTSC video on PAL TV have interlace artifacts?

[anonymoustly]

Why NTSC video on PAL TV have interlace artifacts? Even original is already progressieve?


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[DB83]

I really do not know what I am seeing. But IMHO these are not interlace artifacts.

It may help if you stated:


1. The make/model of tv


2. The player used and if it has a NTSC on PAL playback setting (which themselves are anolg points and not relevant in the digital world)


And a photo taken with (assumed) a mobile (which might also introduce its own timing issues) hardly helps.


An unaltered sample of the video may also assist.

[anonymoustly]

1, is not just the TV, Samsung and Philips TV both does the same.

2, not intent too the player, LG and Sony player, both does it.

3. not about the connection, both RCA and HDMI does it, make no defference or set player on interlaced or progressieve.

4.on the PC video plays without the artifact.


[Attachment 71720 - Click to enlarge]

[Attachment 71721 - Click to enlarge]

[rrats]

because the converter is bad maybe. idk man tell me more about what is the source and all that it's really hard to tell without any context whatsoever

[anonymoustly]

A ntsc dvd-video both progressieve and interlace have the same artifact.

[DB83]

Well if you are not sharing potentially vital info ie ACTUAL model nos and this artifact is present on ANYTHING apart from a PC monitor, allow me a suggestion.

My PC monitor is set at a refresh rate of 60 hertz. NTSC sources are smooth and I see no issues with PAL sources.


So I wonder what your Tvs are set to. Do they even have a 50 hertz setting (to comply with EU power) ?. Are there settings to increase it to 60 hertz ?


My suspicion is that the artifact you see is actually 'Judder' inasmuch that the screen can not keep up with the source. But you also did not answer if the players have NTSC on PAL or even NTSC 443 settings. Neither of these are generally automatic (but could vary with the player(s) which we do not know of)


Just a thought or two so do not shoot the messenger.

[anonymoustly]

All is 230 volt 50hz devices.
Players choose automatically NTSC or PAL behind DVD input resolution. 720x480 NTSC or 720x576 PAL, however on 480 they reconized it as a PC screen.

LG BD370 progressieve setting/interlace DVD NTSC > Samsung TV (artifact occurs)
LG BD370 interlace setting/interlace DVD NTSC > Samsung TV (artifact occurs)
LG BD370 progressieve setting/interlace DVD NTSC > Philips TV (artifact occurs)
LG BD370 interlace setting/interlace DVD NTSC > Philips TV (artifact occurs)

LG BD370 progressieve setting/progressieve DVD NTSC > Samsung TV (artifact occurs)
LG BD370 interlace setting/progressieve DVD NTSC > Samsung TV (artifact occurs)
LG BD370 progressieve setting/progressieve DVD NTSC > Philips TV (artifact occurs)
LG BD370 interlace setting/progressieve DVD NTSC > Philips TV (artifact occurs)

Computer progressieve setting/interlace DVD NTSC > Samsung TV (artifact is gone)
Computer progressieve setting/progressieve DVD NTSC > Samsung TV (artifact is gone)
Computer progressieve setting/interlace DVD NTSC > Philips TV (artifact is gone)
Computer progressieve setting/progressieve DVD NTSC > Philips TV (artifact is gone)

TV = SAMSUNG UE22D5000 and Philips 46pfl9707s

On de LG BD370 it also occurs at PAL DVDs, and at the Sony UBP-X700 4K Ultra HD only at NTSC DVDs

actually the LG does it with all DVDs whether they are PAL or NTSC and progressive or not.

[dellsam34]

The artifact showed in your pictures (if indeed that's what you are referring to) is called "moiré pattern" originally a French word, It is an artifact that occurs when the source video resolution and the screen resolution are too close but don't match up, It has nothing to do with the color system and it happens at any resolution as long as the condition described above is met, The best way to avoid it is to stay back from the screen and not take closeups like the ones above, When you look for problems you'll find them.

[anonymoustly]

576p PAL also not meet the TV screen, that is 1080p, but at 576p even at that output mode the artifact is don't here.

[DB83]

English is my first, if not only main language (I can read a little French and German) but the above makes little sense.

Are you now saying that 576p is fine whereas only earlier you stated it was not (with reference to dvd output). You can hardly have it both ways.


Did you explore my own suggestion of refresh rate. But....


You now appear to introduce factors which the creators of SD never anticipated. Even SD upscaled to HD1080 is gonna depend on the quality of the upscaler beit in the tv or external player etc. Push that to 4K and who knows.

[Sharc]

Sharpening filters can also intoduce moiré artifacts. Turn down any sharpeners on your TV and playback gear.

[hello_hello]

What resolutions are the Bluray player and computers connecting to the TVs? By that, I mean are they connected to the TV at the TV's native resolution (probably for the computer) or are they connecting at 480p and 576p in NTSC and PAL modes and the TV is upscaling? I'm just wondering if that's where the difference could be.

The type of input you're sending to the TV could also be different. The computer could be outputting RGB and already doing the chroma upsampling whereas the player is probably outputting 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 YUV.

It looks like it might be a chroma upsampling problem. Maybe it's being upsampled incorrectly, or maybe the resizer used to upscale the chroma by the player or TV isn't very good.
Incorrect chroma upscampling was a problem with DVD players for a while, but maybe the issue hasn't gone away entirely.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/the-chroma-upsampling-error-an...hroma-problem/
Check out the pictures halfway down the page.

In PAL regions, all TVs (as far as I know) will refresh at both 50Hz and 60Hz and the player should switch the refresh rate according to the type of DVD it's playing. My old Sony player is even clever enough to do it according to the frame rate when it's playing video via it's USB input, but the Samsung player only does it for discs. Both the players and TVs here default to 60Hz (the player's menus for changing settings display at 60Hz) and only switch to 50Hz when playing PAL video. I doubt the refresh rate is an issue though, unless it effect's the TV's PC mode.

My Samsung TV is quite old so yours is probably different, but for my TV to switch to PC mode a particular HDMI input needs to be used and the device connected to the TV must be connected at 1080p and 60Hz. When that happens the TV automatically switches itself into PC mode, disabling much of the picture enhancing crap. Text on the screen looks horrible unless the TV is in PC mode (viewing text files etc), even if you disable all the picture enhancing crap manually in normal mode (normal mode obviously doesn't let you disable it completely).

However PC mode is activated for your TV though, could that be where the difference is?