How can you tell Digital8 vs. HI-8?

[seanmcnally]

So, getting a bit confused by the standards here. From what I've gathered from research, Digital8 cameras can record onto Hi-8 tapes in a digital format. There are also specific Digital8 Tapes...but these are actually the exact same as Hi-8 tapes, and a Digital8 camera will record in digital format no matter what sort of tape you use.

But Hi-8 cameras are analog, and they use the same tapes Digital8 cameras do. So, if you have a Hi-8 tape, it could contain either analog or digital data.

So, my question is, given that I have a box of Hi-8 tapes, how can I tell whether they were recorded digitally using a Digital8 camera, or if they were recorded in analog using a Hi-8 camera?

These tapes were previously digitized using an Insignia DVD recorder (IS-DVD 100121) via analog input (composite unfortunately), but if the source material was digital, I'd love to get that. Is there any way to tell? Thanks!

[DB83]

Surely the simple test is playback on a Hi8 camera >> No picture = digital recording.

Playback on a Digital8 camera with transfer by firewire IEEE1394 would give you a digital (DV) file regardless of what is on the tape.

[seanmcnally]

Surely the simple test is playback on a Hi8 camera >> No picture = digital recording.

Seems simple enough, but unfortunately I don't have access to one of those. Is there any other way to tell?

Playback on a Digital8 camera with transfer by firewire IEEE1394 would give you a digital (DV) file regardless of what is on the tape.

I do have a Digital8 camera. Assuming the tapes are analog, I'm wondering if transferring this way would be better quality than the original method (Analog > Insignia DVD)?

[DB83]

DV is 13 gb per hour of recording. DVD is less than that (depends on how many hours are on a disk). So higher bitrate here does mean better quality.

But you should also be able to use your analog outputs on the camera to transfer as lossless. Even better quality than DV.

[seanmcnally]

But you should also be able to use your analog outputs on the camera to transfer as lossless. Even better quality than DV.

Gotcha. I assume you mean using HuffYUV or UTVideo with VirtualDub2. I've done a bit of research on that, but I've come up short on compatible hardware. Do you have a recommendation for that? My Hauppauge PVR 2 doesn't work with Virtualdub2.

[DB83]

Hauppauge USB-Live2. Good driver support. Better to use the original virtualdub

Before you commit yourself better to complete your research that your camera can indeed playback Hi-8 for analog playback. Now I might have confused the matter with the original 8mm but certain models of Digital8 refuse to playback these tapes.

[seanmcnally]

Thanks, I’ll look into that one! Just to be clear though, when you said the VirtualDub method was “better than” DV, that was based on an assumption that tapes were analog, right? If the tapes have digital data instead, a digital transfer would be best, right? Because otherwise you’d need to go Digital > Analog > Digital, which would introduce quality degradation, I’d assume?

[Cornucopia]

Yes, you are correct in all those assumptions.


Scott

[seanmcnally]

Okay, so based on everything discussed so far...

• If the video on the tape is digital, transferring to a DV file is the best method.
• If the video on the tape is analog, transferring to a HuffYUV file is the best method.

These are mutually exclusive, choosing the wrong method lowers output quality.

Which brings us back full circle to the original question...what's on the tape? How can I tell if it's analog or digital? Is there any other way besides putting it in an analog-only Hi-8 camera?

[Brad]

Digital8 cams like DCR-TRV340 have an option to "force" analog playback mode, but I've never tested it with a Digital8 tape to see if you can really make it output garbage.

If your cam has "advanced playback options", you can try one of them on a tape. If they work, it's digital.

[dellsam34]

You wouldn't know if the tapes are V8/Hi8 or D8 unless you have a D8 camcorder capable of playing back analog tapes, The camcorder should display Hi8 or D8 on the screen, V8 played back without indication, The difference between analog and digital is the bottom section of the frame, analog has head switch noise, digital has a clean frame.

[Brad]

The difference between analog and digital is the bottom section of the frame, analog has head switch noise, digital has a clean frame.

Oh good point. As long as you're viewing the uncropped frame (not on the LCD), this difference is obvious.

I guess digital should look different in rewind/FF too.

[nicholasserra]

Playback on a Digital8 camera with transfer by firewire IEEE1394 would give you a digital (DV) file regardless of what is on the tape.

On SOME cameras. Anyone landing here via google, check Digital8 wiki page for sony models.

Which brings us back full circle to the original question...what's on the tape? How can I tell if it's analog or digital? Is there any other way besides putting it in an analog-only Hi-8 camera?

Or put it into a Digital8 cam and it'll tell you whether it's D8, HI8, or Video8 (Just shows an 8).

Digital8 cams like DCR-TRV340 have an option to "force" analog playback mode, but I've never tested it with a Digital8 tape to see if you can really make it output garbage.

It does. I always enable this mode if I know the tape is analog.

Annoying related note, if the tape is for sure Digital8, these cams have no way to force D8 playback. Had a tape that was HI8, with D8 recorded over it. Couldn't force D8 playback, had to use a D8 only cam that didn't support analog.

[aedipuss]

Originally Posted by DB83 Playback on a Digital8 camera with transfer by firewire IEEE1394 would give you a digital (DV) file regardless of what is on the tape.



On SOME cameras. Anyone landing here via google, check Digital8 wiki page for sony models.

no. with any camera able to play back d8 over firewire. if it can go over firewire the ONLY thing transferred over firewire is DV or HDV.

[nicholasserra]

Originally Posted by DB83 Playback on a Digital8 camera with transfer by firewire IEEE1394 would give you a digital (DV) file regardless of what is on the tape.



On SOME cameras. Anyone landing here via google, check Digital8 wiki page for sony models.

no. with any camera able to play back d8 over firewire. if it can go over firewire the ONLY thing transferred over firewire is DV or HDV.

My point was that only some D8 camcorders are capable of playing analog tapes. Many simply only play D8 tapes and do not offer any support for Video8 and HI8.

[seanmcnally]

no. with any camera able to play back d8 over firewire. if it can go over firewire the ONLY thing transferred over firewire is DV or HDV.

Is this actually true? I saw this Reddit post that describes using a camera with firewire output to digitize analog tapes. See the headline "Budget DV using Sony Handycam as passthrough".

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the tape I'm working with is digital. Does Analog Hi-8 contain datecode? Presumably not, right? Meaning, since I can see the recording date inside CaptureFlux while playing back via firewire, the video must be digital.

[nicholasserra]

That's my reddit post. The passthrough section is specifically about using a D8 camcorder as a capture card, basically. Aka plug in a VCR into the camcorder input, the camcorder acts as A/D device, and you capture via FireWire on the PC.

The resulting file will be a DV codec AVI.

Doesn't really have anything to do with using the camcorder to capture 8mm cassettes of any format.

[seanmcnally]

I guess I was a bit confused by this line:

With this setup you also have the capability to digitize Video8, HI8, and Digital8 tapes via FireWire, as long as the model supports it.

I thought you meant you could put a Video8 (analog) tape into a Digital8 camcorder, and capture it over FireWire. I guess you meant you'd actually need two cameras, one to feed the other via Composite or S-Video cable?

[nicholasserra]

Nope your assumption is correct. Notice the "also" in there, meaning you can use this D8 cam as a passthrough AND you can digitize Video8, HI8, and Digital8 tapes via FireWire or over the camera's Svideo port.

But only certain D8 cams will play analog tapes. Reference this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital8#Analog_recordings

[seanmcnally]

Alright, so I guess we've gone around in a circle here. Back to my original point, the assertion that only tapes that contain digital data can be transmit through firewire was incorrect. The camera can actually act as an analog to digital converter, which doesn't answer the question of "is this tape data digital" But, the link you posted will hopefully help people who find this in the future, since if their camera isn't on that list, they'll have an easier time answering the question.

Though, unless someone proves me wrong, I think seeing a datecode in capture software definitively proves that the tape has digital data, not analog.

[dellsam34]

You wouldn't know if the tapes are V8/Hi8 or D8 unless you have a D8 camcorder capable of playing back analog tapes, The camcorder should display Hi8 or D8 on the screen, V8 played back without indication, The difference between analog and digital is the bottom section of the frame, analog has head switch noise, digital has a clean frame.

It's a copy/paste of post #11 in case you missed it.

[nicholasserra]

IF a specific D8 camcorder can play analog tapes, it will output the signal via Firewire and svideo.

When you put the tape in, it will show on the screen the tape format, with a D8, HI8, or 8 indicator. That's how you'll know. But if you're transferring via FireWire it won't really matter what the format is.

I've seen some D8 and miniDV tapes that did not have datecodes embedded, so not a 100% sure indicator there. The camcorder screen will indicate the format for you.

[seanmcnally]

I had originally somewhat breezed past #11 because I thought it wasn't helpful, but looking again, I'm seeing I missed something important

You wouldn't know if the tapes are V8/Hi8 or D8 unless you have a D8 camcorder capable of playing back analog tapes.

I do.

The difference between analog and digital is the bottom section of the frame, analog has head switch noise, digital has a clean frame.

This is the part that made me breeze past it, because on my analog captures of old VHS-C Tapes, I have what you would describe as a "clean frame", there's no head noise at the bottom. But here's the important part...

The camcorder should display Hi8 or D8 on the screen

Originally, I looked for this on the camera, and thought that I didn't see it. Nothing seemed to say Digital8 or otherwise. But what I wasn't looking for, was the Digital 8 logo, which looks like a D with an 8 inside it. As I'd never seen this before, I didn't know what it was. But, the fact that my camera is displaying that symbol during playback is a surefire indicator that my tapes are in fact digital!

This was just echoed by nicholasserra. Thanks to you both!

[dellsam34]

There is still a big difference in the frame look between analog and digital, there is some noise at the bottom even if it's minor if the file is played back in the computer, there will be for sure some black bands on the sides of the frame, D8 and miniDV tapes have nothing around the frame, a precise pixel count and each pixel contains active video information.

[ConsumerDV]

DV is 13 gb per hour of recording. DVD is less than that (depends on how many hours are on a disk). So higher bitrate here does mean better quality.

Not necessarily. DV is intraframe, MPEG-2 is interframe.

But you should also be able to use your analog outputs on the camera to transfer as lossless. Even better quality than DV.

Not necessarily. DV is a well-supported format with known frame geometry and correct header info coming from a camcorder. When capturing as analog there are more variables. Also, there are different kinds of analog, SVideo is ok, but composite is less so.

Gotcha. I assume you mean using HuffYUV or UTVideo with VirtualDub2.

I prefer native Cineform with VirtualDub2. Then I edit in Sony Vegas.

Okay, so based on everything discussed so far...

• If the video on the tape is digital, transferring to a DV file is the best method.
• If the video on the tape is analog, transferring to a HuffYUV file is the best method.

These are mutually exclusive, choosing the wrong method lowers output quality.

Not necessarily. You can capture analog into DV codec like Cedocida. What is different is whether you want to allow the camcorder to convert to digital, or you want to do it yourself. I would go the in-camera route, it is simpler and it just works. Some people claim that capturing through SVideo results in better quality for their Hi8 tapes, maybe, if they have high-quality A/D capture card. Capturing through SVideo makes more sense for PAL, as PAL DV is 4:2:0. But if you are in an NTSC land, I would let the camcorder digitize, and capture as DV through FireWire.

[dellsam34]

Generally speaking capturing analog tapes to a compressed lossless codec such as HuffYUV and encode later to a more modern than a lossy DV codec such as h.264/4:2:2 or even a lossless modern codec is much better than settling with DV so Seanmcnally's statment is very correct and that would negate your statment.

[Cornucopia]

@ConsumerDV, you are mistaken. Dv is an intraframe only codec, but mpeg1, mpeg2, mpeg4, avc, hevc, etc are all capable of both intraframe only encoding and interframe encoding. All just depends on application and its settings. I have used a number of capture cards in the past that captured high bitrate i-frame-only mpeg1 and mpeg-2. Specifically so it would be easy to edit.


Scott

[ConsumerDV]

Ok, thanks for the info! Usually, most out-of-the-box solutions use MPEG-2 in Long-GOP mode. The Insignia DVD recorder that was mentioned in the thread start, uses Long-GOP with lower than 10 Mbit/s rate to conform to DVD-Video.

Digressing, it would be interesting to read about a comparison between DV and Intra-MPEG-2. While I've read enough about the history of MPEG-2, I don't know much about the history of DV.

EDIT: This article says, for example, "Variations on M-JPEG algorithm are used in desktop SD video editing systems, consumer digital video camcorders (25 Mbps), and professional SD video camcorders such as the Sony Digital Betacam (90 Mbps) and Panasonic DVCPro 50 (50 Mbps), and others." I assume that "consumer digital video camcorders (25 Mbps)" is regular DV.

This document claims that "DV coding can be thought of as something half-way between Motion JPEG and MPEG. ... At equal bitrates, DV is somewhat better than MJPEG (which is very similar), and is comparable to intraframe MPEG-2. Note that many MPEG-2 encoders for acquisition applications do not use intraframe compression."

[rrats]

The easiest way to tell them apart is the video quality. It's superior on Digital8

[DB83]

[QUOTE=ConsumerDV;2652804][

(flannel removed)


/QUOTE]


Jeez man. I am sure that elsewhere you stated you have the knowledge of DV. And now you state the opposite. Just where does your username come from ?


No. i-frame only mpg-2 is NOT DV


And long GOP ? Mpeg-2 has a restriction of 15 frames for PAL and 18 for NTSC. Hardly 'long' when compared with H264


DV does not even have a GOP length (maybe someone can correct me on this)