Blockbuster chooses Blu-ray: is the war over?

[SingSing]

The first question is still "can either HD or BD beats DVD ?"

[gshelley61]

DVD sales are declining, but DVD is still the 800 pound gorilla in terms of market share and sales. High definition discs and players are just a blip on the radar at this point - only of interest to a relatively small number of audio/video enthusiasts (like me) that have already invested in HDTV's.

It remains to be seen if either (or both) formats survive long enough in their current form until enough people actually own HDTV's, become aware of and interested in high definition discs, and see pricing low enough on players and discs in order for them to take the plunge.

There are still plenty of folks transitioning from VHS to DVD, let alone concerned about high definition.

[Lucifers_Ghost]

DVD sales are declining, but DVD is still the 800 pound gorilla in terms of market share and sales. High definition discs and players are just a blip on the radar at this point - only of interest to a relatively small number of audio/video enthusiasts (like me) that have already invested in HDTV's.

It remains to be seen if either (or both) formats survive long enough in their current form until enough people actually own HDTV's, become aware of and interested in high definition discs, and see pricing low enough on players and discs in order for them to take the plunge.

There are still plenty of folks transitioning from VHS to DVD, let alone concerned about high definition.

I agree with all of that except for the last part. I wouldnt say there are "plenty" of folks still transitioning from VHS to DVD. I would submit that they are a relatively small percentage at this point.

[SCDVD]

Both formats have flaws. Consumers that know and care resent this "Battle of the Shoguns" attempt to kill the other camps HD standard. I'm being a bit facetious but why don't we on VideoHelp define a proper HD standard. Since the techno-world is full of acronyms, we could call it PHD (Perfected High Density). We could each chip in an element of the new "PHD" spec. and then engage some sort of PR agency and issue a press release announcing this new and improved HD format. We might as well have some fun while the Shoguns slug it out.

My contribution to the new PHD spec is: All manufacturers of commercial PHD discs must clearly indicate on the disc label a statement indicating that the original source is not HD if it didn't come off of an HD camera. Upscaling is not genuine HD and the consumer should be aware if it isn't.

[rayden54]

Pooey!

Now I'm gonna either have to buy both, or hope the Exclusive titles are released for the other format. Stupid Heroes had to go and have exclusive HDDVD extras. And dang it all, it won't make any difference for me quality wise. Not with a Commodore 1701 moniter.

[DereX888]

Both formats have flaws. Consumers that know and care resent this "Battle of the Shoguns" attempt to kill the other camps HD standard. I'm being a bit facetious but why don't we on VideoHelp define a proper HD standard. Since the techno-world is full of acronyms, we could call it PHD (Perfected High Density). We could each chip in an element of the new "PHD" spec. and then engage some sort of PR agency and issue a press release announcing this new and improved HD format. We might as well have some fun while the Shoguns slug it out.

My contribution to the new PHD spec is: All manufacturers of commercial PHD discs must clearly indicate on the disc label a statement indicating that the original source is not HD if it didn't come off of an HD camera. Upscaling is not genuine HD and the consumer should be aware if it isn't.

...and how many people do you know who have a clue about the difference between upscaled and true HD content?
(not that I don't agree with you)

[SCDVD]

Both formats have flaws. Consumers that know and care resent this "Battle of the Shoguns" attempt to kill the other camps HD standard. I'm being a bit facetious but why don't we on VideoHelp define a proper HD standard. Since the techno-world is full of acronyms, we could call it PHD (Perfected High Density). We could each chip in an element of the new "PHD" spec. and then engage some sort of PR agency and issue a press release announcing this new and improved HD format. We might as well have some fun while the Shoguns slug it out.

My contribution to the new PHD spec is: All manufacturers of commercial PHD discs must clearly indicate on the disc label a statement indicating that the original source is not HD if it didn't come off of an HD camera. Upscaling is not genuine HD and the consumer should be aware if it isn't.

...and how many people do you know who have a clue about the difference between upscaled and true HD content?
(not that I don't agree with you)

Your point is valid. Very few people have any idea about the difference. But if the HD video makers are required to put a notice on the box and disc that informs the buyer that the source material is not HD, a lot of people will get a clue.

[adam]

What professional source material is there even out there that isn't at least "HD?"

SVCD, footage does not need to be filmed on an HD camera to be suitable for HD release. In fact, HD camcorders are significantly lower quality than traditional 35mm film that's been used since before 1900. Just about every film ever made will benefit from an HD release, IF the print is in good condition or can be restored/cleaned up.

The only place you will ever see upscaled footage released on HD is in a bootleg shop.

[gshelley61]

DVD sales are declining, but DVD is still the 800 pound gorilla in terms of market share and sales. High definition discs and players are just a blip on the radar at this point - only of interest to a relatively small number of audio/video enthusiasts (like me) that have already invested in HDTV's.

It remains to be seen if either (or both) formats survive long enough in their current form until enough people actually own HDTV's, become aware of and interested in high definition discs, and see pricing low enough on players and discs in order for them to take the plunge.

There are still plenty of folks transitioning from VHS to DVD, let alone concerned about high definition.

I agree with all of that except for the last part. I wouldnt say there are "plenty" of folks still transitioning from VHS to DVD. I would submit that they are a relatively small percentage at this point.

I meant worldwide. Certainly VHS purchases in the USA have dropped to nearly nothing.

[raffie]

I meant worldwide. Certainly VHS purchases in the USA have dropped to nearly nothing.

VHS is really done for man, worldwide. US/Europe (let's just say Western civilization) has made the transition, Asia had (S)VCD for commercial videos and has made the transition from that probably smoother than we have. I'm not sure what places there are left that you are talking about, Africa perhaps? Maybe you mean to say ice bears/penguins still use teh good old VCR?

I have a few boxes full of VHS tapes that i offer for free on a local auction site. I just cant get rid of them man, its been months now, i will just be throwing them in the garbage...

[MJPollard]

Regarding VHS and VCRs: as long as people like my girlfriend and her mom are around, the VCR is never going to completely go away. They just want to "stick a tape in the machine, record their soaps, and watch them wherever." The DVD recorder is never going to be that easy (not as long as RW discs -- the equivalent of the reusable VHS blank tape -- require the hassle of erasing before being used), and a DVR doesn't give them the ability to watch what they recorded in the family room -or- the kitchen -or- the bedroom, etc.

Will commercial movies distributed on VHS disappear? For all intents and purposes, they already have (as others have stated), and people like my girlfriend and her mom can easily handle playing a DVD. But as far as recording goes, the VCR is not going to go away until something comes along that's just as brain-dead simple to use and offers just as much convenience and flexibility.

[SatStorm]

I agree with MJPollard on this: Even I use the VCR to record something once in a while. And yes, I do have a HTPC, a DVD Recorder, a couple of PVRs, etc, etc...

[Lucifers_Ghost]

I agree with MJPollard on this: Even I use the VCR to record something once in a while. And yes, I do have a HTPC, a DVD Recorder, a couple of PVRs, etc, etc...

There will probably remain to be people who "use" a VCR for many years to come. I think Shelly was referring to people who "solely" use VCR and havent transitioned over to DVD yet. THAT market is pretty damn small worldwide.

Most households still have a vcr (usually in a spare bedroom or whatnot) to record from tv. It will remain that way until PVR's arent so expensive.

[SatStorm]

I don't think is about the cost. PVRs are complicated compared VCRs and you can't "carry" the recordings elsewhere.

Also, a DVB PVR cost around 120 euros in Greece right now, it's not that expensive anymore. Ofcourse, here we have C.I., UCAS and CAMS for our subscription cards, we don't have to buy what the subscription service officially offerst to the subscripters.

[gshelley61]

I think the most recent figure I saw was that 82% of US households have a DVD player, and about 89% have a VCR. About 98-99% have a TV. I would expect the US to have the world's highest (or among the highest) DVD player penetration percentage.

[MJPollard]

There will probably remain to be people who "use" a VCR for many years to come. I think Shelly was referring to people who "solely" use VCR and havent transitioned over to DVD yet. THAT market is pretty damn small worldwide.

Agreed in principle, though actual hard numbers will never be known unless we polled every person on the planet. Even my girlfriend and her mom have bowed to the inevitable, as I indicated before; hell, they even have a subscription to Netflix.

Most households still have a vcr (usually in a spare bedroom or whatnot) to record from tv. It will remain that way until PVR's arent so expensive.

But here is where I disagree with you. Like SatStorm said, it's not about cost, it's about convenience. My girlfriend can tape her soaps in the family room VCR, then watch them later in the kitchen VCR/TV while she's making dinner, and finish watching them later that night on her bedroom VCR. You can't do that with a PVR, and any UberGeek(tm) method for doing so that we might use will never fly with her or with other Joe and Jane Averages.

As the LP transitioned to the CD, so has the prerecorded VHS tape given way to the DVD. But the VCR itself will, I think, remain as the cassette tape recorder of the video world: handy, ubiquitous, and damn hard to get rid of.

[MJPollard]

I think the most recent figure I saw was that 82% of US households have a DVD player,

No surprise there. Hell, these days you can almost get one as an impulse buy; just grab one off the peg while standing in the Wal-Mart checkout line.

[vhelp]

As the LP transitioned to the CD, so has the prerecorded VHS tape given way to the DVD. But the VCR itself will, I think, remain as the cassette tape recorder of the video world: handy, ubiquitous, and damn hard to get rid of.

Good point. I'm still using my vcr for almost the same thing. And, to make things
worse in accepting with some of you's, I'm even recording them in EP and then
later, when time allows me, I might finally transfer them to another archival format,
dvd or other, for instance. yeah. For some strange reason, I just can't seem to
leave (nor live) with out it. Its as all of you having been saying, that it just too
conenience.

--> mine is the: JVC S-VHS HR-S3910U w/ Super VHS ET feature

-vhelp 4380

[Lucifers_Ghost]

There will probably remain to be people who "use" a VCR for many years to come. I think Shelly was referring to people who "solely" use VCR and havent transitioned over to DVD yet. THAT market is pretty damn small worldwide.

Agreed in principle, though actual hard numbers will never be known unless we polled every person on the planet. Even my girlfriend and her mom have bowed to the inevitable, as I indicated before; hell, they even have a subscription to Netflix.

Most households still have a vcr (usually in a spare bedroom or whatnot) to record from tv. It will remain that way until PVR's arent so expensive.

But here is where I disagree with you. Like SatStorm said, it's not about cost, it's about convenience. My girlfriend can tape her soaps in the family room VCR, then watch them later in the kitchen VCR/TV while she's making dinner, and finish watching them later that night on her bedroom VCR. You can't do that with a PVR, and any UberGeek(tm) method for doing so that we might use will never fly with her or with other Joe and Jane Averages.

As the LP transitioned to the CD, so has the prerecorded VHS tape given way to the DVD. But the VCR itself will, I think, remain as the cassette tape recorder of the video world: handy, ubiquitous, and damn hard to get rid of.

With 3 VCR's in the house, Im going to say you are in the minority. *Most* households will only have 1, MAYBE 2.

[MJPollard]

With 3 VCR's in the house, Im going to say you are in the minority. *Most* households will only have 1, MAYBE 2.

"Objection, Your Honor. Speculation. Calls for facts not in evidence."

Sorry; been watching too much Law & Order lately. That aside, you still can't refute the fact that DVRs and DVD recorders have not yet achieved the convenience and easy-of-use factors inherent in the VCR. (Forget picture quality; we all know that VHS is mediocre at best.)

With a VCR, Joe Sixpack can pop in a tape and record over it as many times as he likes just by hitting the RECORD button; doing the equivalent on a DVD recorder requires a RW disc, which needs initialization before it can be recorded on, and needs to be erased before it can be re-recorded. Joe just wants to "hit RECORD and go"; he doesn't want to go through all that extra hassle just to tape a NASCAR race. Also with a VCR, Joe can then take that tape of the NASCAR race and watch it on any other VCR-equipped TV, and can then loan that tape out to his next door neighbor (or whoever). No need to mention how that's not possible with a DVR.

Don't get me wrong: I totally agree that today's digital recording technology is superior to the VCR, in both features and picture quality. (I have a DVD recorder myself, and I get a lot of use out of it.) However, you and I and almost everyone else here has the advantage of being a lot more technically savvy than Joe Sixpack; we're willing to go the extra mile to use the latest technology. Joe Sixpack, by and large, is not, and until DVRs and DVD recorders can bridge that gap, the VCR is always going to have its place. That's all I'm saying.

[DereX888]

It takes less than 10 seconds to "initialize and wipe" DVD-RW, so its not the problem, rewind tape back on a VCR takes longer than that.
Other than that, basically all DVD-recorders I've seen in past few years, are *exactly* same and easy as VCRs were.

IMHO DVDs are perceived by general public as a "playback-only format" and it won't change anytime soon, or ever. Simply average Joe doesn't feel comfortable recording on a DVD-RWs, for whatever reason, and years of advertising "DVDs" as players took its tool.
DVD-recorders haven't been advertised as "stick-it-in and hit REC button", but they were advertised for very long time (when they were playback-only and when they were advertised at its infancy) as *players only*. After 10 years of DVDs, the common language is still "tape it" not "disc it" and IMHO it'll take generation to change, and dvd-recordables will never gain as much popularity as VCRs had (as a recording format).
Also lets not forget that probably 90% (or close to it) of those households with DVDs have *players*, not recorders. Joe Sixpack is under brainwash pressure to switch to HD since past few years, which is almost the same time since when dvd-recorders became cheap enough for him, but at that time the Big Cos skipped mass advertising of dvd-recorders mostly and pushed HD stuff.
Next generation, living in a HD world since begining, will use some ubiquitus HD format and devices as VHS/VCRs were, while recordable SD/HD DVD formats are just interim 'upgrades' until then, and probably all the BR-DVD & HD-DVD will age and wither until most of the world is HD.

[MJPollard]

It takes less than 10 seconds to "initialize and wipe" DVD-RW, so its not the problem, rewind tape back on a VCR takes longer than that.

That is a significant barrier to a lot of people. Human nature craves simplicity. It's not a matter of how much time it takes, it's a matter of it being a hassle to do. If they have to take one extra step beyond "stick it in and press RECORD," they won't do it.

Other than that, basically all DVD-recorders I've seen in past few years, are *exactly* same and easy as VCRs were.

"Other than that" being the operative phrase here. As you pointed out in the rest of your message, a lot of it is perception and flawed marketing, coupled with resistance to change. Unfortunately, Joe Average drives the market these days, so change, while inevitable, is going to come reeeeeeal slow...

[DereX888]

It takes less than 10 seconds to "initialize and wipe" DVD-RW, so its not the problem, rewind tape back on a VCR takes longer than that.

That is a significant barrier to a lot of people. Human nature craves simplicity. It's not a matter of how much time it takes, it's a matter of it being a hassle to do. If they have to take one extra step beyond "stick it in and press RECORD," they won't do it.

Other than that, basically all DVD-recorders I've seen in past few years, are *exactly* same and easy as VCRs were.

"Other than that" being the operative phrase here. As you pointed out in the rest of your message, a lot of it is perception and flawed marketing, coupled with resistance to change. Unfortunately, Joe Average drives the market these days, so change, while inevitable, is going to come reeeeeeal slow...

You know, it could have been solved by setting recorders to automatically wipe rewritable media whenever user insert new disc and pressed REC button manually (record command doesnt come from timer), maybe just with a confirmation message "do you want to continue recording on this disc [there is xxx minutes left in SP mode] or do you want erase it? CONTINUE REC/ERASE" + "are you sure you want to erase the disc? YES/NO" if it already contained some recordings. Very simple. With option in the settings to turn off the warnings
And it could have been easily implemented if manufacturers decided to, or really cared.
But I just think that, which I didnt emphasised enough in my previous reply, that all manufacturers dont give a damn about SD DVD formats anymore and they want Joe Average to switch to HD recorders of whatever format ASAP, even though they know that only 1 in 100 have a television screen that could benefit from HD recorded source. Somehow this push to HD is being done from the wrong way - "first get a HD recorder and/or a HDV camcorder, then wait until you can afford that plasma HDTV where you can really see it on" I know it sounds silly, but IMHO thats whats exactly going on on the market right now

Im shopping around for new camcorder. I know exactly what I want - no stupid 30GB harddisk MPEG4 etc shit, no WMV-HD or whatever crap I've seen, I just want standard miniDV tape in HD (aka HDV). Guess what - either most of the stores never heard of it, or they dont carry such "specialized devices", or they "can order it for me" (while I want to try it in my hand first LOL! BTW: does some of them really don't know the web exists for many years and we can get there more info on any product than they will ever be able to remember?!).
At the Sony store the manager tried to hook me with some stupid Sony miniDVD/HDD camcorder + BD player/recorder, so I could create my own SD BD-Rs I guess. Even though they had 1 model of HDV camcorder there. I think he had no clue what HDV is. The manager! Ridiculus.
It is such a mess in all retail stores with all that garbage I couldn't believe if I didn't see it.
Imagine Joe Average shopping around

[MOVIEGEEK]

It seems this thread got derailed so I will get it back on track.
My local Blockbuster only has a small section devoted to Blu-Ray,I asked an employee how many they rent a day and he said two at most(usually same person).I know NetFlix has a bigger selection but if I want to watch a new movie I don't want to wait two days when I can drive one mile and rent it.
Another gripe about Blu-Ray is the player cost:I can get a Toshiba HD-A2 for $200US but the Blu-Ray players start off at $500...WTF?!
I wish Blockbuster would have a small section for HD-DVD so I can buy a Toshiba player.

[DereX888]

Another gripe about Blu-Ray is the player cost:I can get a Toshiba HD-A2 for $200US but the Blu-Ray players start off at $500...WTF?!
I wish Blockbuster would have a small section for HD-DVD so I can buy a Toshiba player.

Perhaps such 'deals' Sony and its subsidiaries (Paramount and other studios Sony owns) had with i.e. ballbuster, are THE reason why BD players are more expensive than HD-DVD players... Companies make and sell for profit, they must offset the 'loss' somewhere else.

[jagabo]

Both Paramount and DreamWorks Animation SKG today announced their backing of HD DVD, which will entail exclusive use of the HD DVD format. The decision will see movies from Paramount Pictures, DreamWorks Pictures, Paramount Vantage, Nickelodeon Movies and MTV Films available in standard definition DVD and HD DVD, exclusively.

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070820-paramount-adopts-hd-dvd-kicks-blu-ray-to-the-curb.html

[gshelley61]

It seems this thread got derailed so I will get it back on track.
My local Blockbuster only has a small section devoted to Blu-Ray,I asked an employee how many they rent a day and he said two at most(usually same person).I know NetFlix has a bigger selection but if I want to watch a new movie I don't want to wait two days when I can drive one mile and rent it.
Another gripe about Blu-Ray is the player cost:I can get a Toshiba HD-A2 for $200US but the Blu-Ray players start off at $500...WTF?!
I wish Blockbuster would have a small section for HD-DVD so I can buy a Toshiba player.

Rent from Netflix and get the HD DVD player... they have 80,000 titles and all HD DVD and Blu-ray releases. Your local rental store can't do that. Plus, once you get the ball rolling on disc delivery from your saved list, you will get movies in the mail about every other day (more if you sign up for a higher disc rental limit plan).

[SingSing]

My favrorite rental outlet is Redbox, which carries neither format. maybe that's mean neither of them has mass market appear yet!

I just checked and don't see Hollywood video carring either formats.

I also did not come across any public library that lent either HD or BD.

Note : Redbox is updating their kiosks to hold more disc aka 500 disc.

[edDV]

Note : Redbox is updating their kiosks to hold more disc aka 500 disc.

They are cheap but title selection is poor except for recent releases and kids movies.

I use them for travel. Good thing is you can return to a different city than you rent. They should be in airports and they should offer a return by mail option.

[josetjr]

blockbuster is horrible so far. Not all stores have blu-ray. And there's only 1 copy per title I've seen, though new movies are about 2. And the online stock is awful. Just about all my Blu-ray titles in my queue are either "short wait", "Long wait", or "Very long wait".