Blockbuster chooses Blu-ray: is the war over?

[gotnotime]

Actually, its 10GB difference per layer or 66% more capacity per layer. I only mention this because I hate muti-layer anything when it comes to DVD's,HD,or bluray.

Also, videopoo, both HD-DVD and blu-ray are NEW formats. Does that mean HD-DVD has no right to bring out their format either?

[DereX888]

gotnotime, i agree size matters - but lets not forget that both HD-DVD and BD have already *more* than enough sizes to fit current HD res movies.
The "size factor" will count when everyone will move from -/+R/RW media to those large recordable/rewritable discs in either format when they appear, become affordable and hit mainstream. However at this moment at this moment, a 20GB more on BD means nothing to 99.99% consumers.
Its not that you get slightly higher resolution on BD because of slightly more space.
And after all, do you really care is there more ads or so-called "bonus features" on BD discs?

For all its worth, when Betamax was a "reigning" format, some rental businesses back then signed similar "one format only" exclusive deals too. Yet within 2 years the lesser format, VHS, overthrown the reign of Beta. IMHO it was the best example of the factor at work
Any deals can be rewritten or cancelled.
Not long ago media hailed HD-DVD to be "the one".
Now they boast BD to be "the one".
News schmucks will always write what the Editors and 'upper management' tell them to.
I really don't think anyone should give a damn about what news have to say on the subject leaping ahead even into the nearest future. They never were right with any predictions.

MS & HD-DVD - well, I am surprised as many other people were at the time, that Microsoft chose this format for its xbox.
From all the corporations, Sony is the one receiving special care and attention from Microsoft apparently, since MS licks Sony's arse as much as to even modified their Windows to work better on Sony's hardware, something they never do for any other company in the world (oh well, they'll make patches for them if they pay enough LOL). Only few companies in the world have access to Windows source code, and Sony is among them.
Thats why I always think that it was just Sony's own fault that MS sided with HD-DVD. Xbox360's release was already overdue, and BD release was dragging even more at that time, while HD-DVD was ready to go. Probably thats the main reason why MS didn't use BD. And why they don't support it now, I don't know. Maybe the deal with Toshiba forbid it? Your guess is as good as mine. But I'm rather sure, that if Sony had BD ready when x360 finally got green light, it would be BD what we would see in xboxes, even though Sony is direct competitor of Microsoft when it comes to consoles (lets not forget PS3 factor in it ).
Or maybe Microsoft deliberately chose HD-DVD to slap Sony for its 'betrayal' earlier (when they didn't kill Symbian-based line of PDA-Phones and didn't switch to Windows Mobile as obviously Microsoft would wish them to)... Who knows.
Corporations sometimes have as complicated relations as the most dysfunctional 'human' families do

or maybe Im completely wrong

[MozartMan]

So BR has no clear tech advantage over HD...yet.

Yes, it does. You don't need to boil BD disks in order to play in BD player.

I fixed both Good Sheppard and Children of men my boiling the discs cleaning them off letting them cool and then playing them.

I kid you not, this is an old trick I use to use to get old Xbox games to work with the original Xbox. At times Xbox games would have read errors and not play this trick started on a few game forums and was shown to be effective. I've done it many times for games and thought it would be worth a try on these HD-DVd's that did not work on my 360 Add-on.

Basically put water in a pan with water boil it and put the disc in for about 10 seconds, clean it off let it cool and play the disc. I use the handle end of a spoon to place the disc around so I can put the disc in without touching the edges of the pan.

Both discs would not play at all and spit out a read error on my 360 Add-on. After boiling them they both played perfectly.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=832971

[videopoo]

Also, videopoo, both HD-DVD and blu-ray are NEW formats. Does that mean HD-DVD has no right to bring out their format either

Not sure what you mean?

When did Sony say what gets pressed and what doesn't?

They own the technology to replicate BR discs. Why do you think the porn industry goes HD DVD.
Expense and Sony won't license them the technology. Although Vivid somehow found a rouge BR replicator to press "Debbie Does...Again". I'm still trying to figure out who this replicator was but I've narrowed it down to some place in Japan...I believe.

I'm sure this will changed if Blu Ray starts to pick up alot of independent work but just the fact they would make this know is enough for me to steer clear of BR. Sony and the studios have WAY too much power in the Blu Ray camp.

[gotnotime]

Also, videopoo, both HD-DVD and blu-ray are NEW formats. Does that mean HD-DVD has no right to bring out their format either

Not sure what you mean?

They own the technology to replicate BR discs. Why do you think the porn industry goes HD DVD.

Actually, I missed your point, but I got it now.

However, BR is now reaching out to the porn industry, albeit, rather quietly. Sony can quite stupid sometimes about their marketing decisions, but ultimately money is the driving factor. They are little slow to learn, but I seriously doubt that they will denying anyone a license to replicate BR disks in the end.

[gotnotime]

gotnotime, i agree size matters - but lets not forget that both HD-DVD and BD have already *more* than enough sizes to fit current HD res movies.
The "size factor" will count when everyone will move from -/+R/RW media to those large recordable/rewritable discs in either format when they appear, become affordable and hit mainstream. However at this moment at this moment, a 20GB more on BD means nothing to 99.99% consumers.
Its not that you get slightly higher resolution on BD because of slightly more space.
And after all, do you really care is there more ads or so-called "bonus features" on BD discs?
...
MS & HD-DVD - well, I am surprised as many other people were at the time, that Microsoft chose this format for its xbox.

I can't agree with you. Many of the posts we see with regard to DVD media is concern over how long the technology will last before it is replaced with something new. Therefore, the size issue is relevant now.

"Slightly more space". Are you joking, the difference is 10GB per layer or 66%, somewhat more then slight. As HD Camcorders are now becoming mainstream, that would add hours more to my home movies I could store on one disk and avoid the whole DL issue.

DL was nothing more then a sloppy solution to get more space out of the SD-DVD standard

As for the future, 1080P will surely be the standard as evidenced by the drop in market share of 720P HDTV already. That "slightly" extra space on a disk will become important with longer movies like LOTR, and yes extras help sell movies, especially re-released, extreme ultimate,.. editions and the movie industry will always want that space.

As for the Microsoft issue, I agree with you that their decision was somewhat peculiar to go with HD-DVD. Nevertheless, they did, and in for a penny, in for a pound, I'm sure they are pushing for HD-DVD to win

[videopoo]

However, BR is now reaching out to the porn industry, albeit, rather quietly. Sony can quite stupid sometimes about their marketing decisions, but ultimately money is the driving factor. They are little slow to learn, but I seriously doubt that they will denying anyone a license to replicate BR disks in the end

That may be but it still doesn't take away the fact that the porn industry or most independent developers just can't afford BR...it just too darn expensive to get a disc to press.

[rhegedus]

Erm, you can burn BD.

[videopoo]

I wasn't talking about burning your sister's wedding to BR.

[rhegedus]

I appreciate that, but what sort of numbers are independent developers having pressed in one go? Just thinking of economy of scale.

I'm not concerned about the porn industry's choice - SD is fine for them.

[videopoo]

Anywhere from 1000 to 10,000 - at least thats what my client wants to do at this point. Replication charges are 3 times that of HD DVD.

The authoring tools and the time required to spit out a working title are the issue With Blu Ray, I would need about $120,000 cash if I were to offer Blu Ray authoring to anyone. Then there's the time required to get up to speed with the technology since Sony thought it would be a great idea to re-invent the wheel then decides to keep it to themselves and the studios unless you want to pay some big bucks. Consumer authoring tools are not used in BR production at this point.

HD DVD is just a simple extension of the current DVD-Video spec. Same structure although there are additional .MAP files and VOB files are now called EVOBs. Navigation is now handled through outboard files written in HDi and ECMAScript. Replicators can use current equipment, easily modified. These are my reasons for supporting HD DVD.

You may not be concerned about HD porn but they are....so I don't see your point.

[rhegedus]

Really?

According to Martin Greenwald, CEO of Image Entertainment, BD pressing costs are $2 per disc with normal DVD pressing costs about $1 a disk. He's not a 'fanboi' since he thinks it's too expensive and is going with HD.

Is the $1 difference worth the 20Gb capacity loss?

Surely the editing and authoring should not cost any more for BD than it does for HD - it's down to software costs.

re: porn - how many HD titles are currently available a year after mainstream HD DVD? That's how concerned they are...

[videopoo]

Sorry...I'm not Martin Greenwald. I don't own 2500 titles and I don't have the luxury of meeting Sony executives about deals on my replication costs All I can say I have replication quotes in my hand. A $5000 set up fee and $2.65 per disc (not to mention a 5000 unit minimum) and this includes all artwork, packaging and shrink wraps. Compared to $1.50 a disc for HD DVD with no set up fee (but Ive done alot of work with this replicator).

A buck is a buck and me and my clients will gladly give up 10Gs when comparing costs in authoring and replication. Authoring BD takes much more time authoring the same title on HD DVD.

I don't know if the porn industry cares or not about HD on discs but they've made it clear why they have chosen HD DVD and those mirror my own.

I'd love to author a Blu Ray title if the costs and authoring times were equal to HD DVD...but they're not.

[rhegedus]

What software are you using?

[videopoo]

Right now I have to encode video and audio, hand code everything then rent some time on a Scenarist to do the mux. Scenarist is really just a big expensive muxing engine. Every BD & HD DVD title needs to be hand coded at this point

But Netblender has a new tool which has more of a graphical UI and a muxing engine as well. They even have a BD version planned. Hopefully good things will come out of it. Sonic says it will incorporate a graphical interface for Scenarist in coming months or years...

[Specialist]

There's a new firestorm on the Roxio forums right now about the question of whether manufacturers of newer-model "Blu-ray Disc" players have been pressured by the studios to revoke support for playback of consumer-authored BDMV content burned to BD-R or BD-RE media:

Link #1: http://tinyurl.com/25wnqe
Link #2: http://tinyurl.com/yp9f5f

Anybody know if there is any truth to that?

[Specialist]

Just found the PDF manual for the new Sony model BDP-S300 "Blu-ray Disc" stand alone player.

http://www.sonystyle.com/wcsstore/SonyStyleStorefrontAssetStore/pdf/BDPS300.pdf

Sure enough.

On page 6, the manual clearly states "this player cannot play" BD-Rs/BD-REs.

This suggests not even the Hitachi camcorder discs could be played in this particular player.

Why would they do that?

[videopoo]

Those links seem odd. I'd like to get more info on this. If its true...Sony is so lame!!!!

[Specialist]

There's no doubt about it.

Sony's most affordable ($499) new stand alone Blu-ray Disc player... the BDP-S300... can't play BD-R/BD-RE discs.

Says so in the manual on page 6:

http://www.sonystyle.com/wcsstore/SonyStyleStorefrontAssetStore/pdf/BDPS300.pdf

So let's say you buy one of the new Hitachi Blu-ray Disc camcorders and you then want to pop your Hitachi-recorded BD-R or BD-RE disc into your brand new Sony BDP-S300 Blu-ray Disc player only to discover your discs won't play.

Meanwhile, Toshiba's new HD-A2 HD DVD player sells for a mere $253 on Amazon.

You can then transfer the video recorded by your Hitachi (or any other high definition camcorder) via high speed USB or Firewire to your computer's hard disk.

Then you can edit the video using a $99 software package.

Many of these current version $99 software programs have the ability to burn "HD DVD-R" disc images to normal consumer DVD-/+R/RW media.

So let's assume you choose to burn your high definition image to a DVD-R.

That's what I did this past weekend... as a test.

I took my finished DVD-R to Circuit City and inserted it into a Toshiba HD-A2 and it played perfectly... with fully-functional menus.

So which choice makes more sense?

A relatively expensive Sony BDP-S300 that can't play home-authored BD-R/BD-RE discs (according to its own manual)?

Or a relatively inexpensive Toshiba HD-A2 that can play high definition video authored to standard DVDs?

[rhegedus]

There's no doubt about it.

There is doubt about it.

Apparently there are a few versions of the online manual circulating.

The latter ones do not state that restriction.

I presume a firmware update has/will remedy the situation . This is the same scenario as with the BDP-S100 when it was launched.


This was mentioned in the link you posted....

[rhegedus]

Right now I have to encode video and audio, hand code everything then rent some time on a Scenarist to do the mux. Scenarist is really just a big expensive muxing engine. Every BD & HD DVD title needs to be hand coded at this point

Scenarist costs the same irrespective fo the output format - where is the extra expense for BD?

[MozartMan]

I presume a firmware update has/will remedy the situation . This is the same scenario as with the BDP-S100 when it was launched.

Exactly.

The same issue was with PS3 with original firmware. PS3 didn't play BDMV from BD-R/RE. Sony added BDMV playback later with 1.6 firmware.

[rhegedus]

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&stor...52921665088000

BD-R/RE Read Compatibility
Yes (BD-MV only. Requires firmware higher than ver.1.55)

Another lie bites the dust.....

[videopoo]

Scenarist costs the same irrespective fo the output format - where is the extra expense for BD?

I can rent time on a Scenarist HD DVD system to do the mux - takes about a half a day....I don't want to spend $50,000 for a muxing engine. Sonic's BD tool is not working as of yet. All BD titles are being produced on Sony's own prioritory systems which is not sold to the public. On top of that there are only 20 or so available authoring seats in the world. Only 20 people at at time to author every Blu Ray title .....talk about prioritory!

Also I would need to learn the spec if I were to offer Blu Ray. Try to find info on authoring a Blu Ray title if your not an employee of Sony or Panasonic. HDi is available to the public to learn and test.

[Specialist]

Do you mean to tell me a firmware update is required for buyers of this product to get the functionality they should have immediately... without any hassles... at purchase?

Appalling!

If I'm attempting to distribute my content, I want to know that intended recipients can play it... without having to resort to a firmware update.

There's no "lie" here.

The latest manual for the Sony BDP-S300 is here:

http://www.sonystyle.com/wcsstore/SonyStyleStorefrontAssetStore/pdf/BDPS300.pdf

On page 6, it clearly states that this model can't play BD-R/BD-RE discs.

But, yes, the Sony SPECIFICATIONS TAB PAGE here...

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&stor...52921665088000

...gives the prospective Sony consumer a slightly contradictory/conditional statement.

It states that BD-R/BD-RE "read" capability for "BDMV" (Blu-ray Discs with menus) is only enabled with firmware higher than version 1.55.

Here's the exact quote:

"Yes (BD-MV only. Requires firmware higher than ver.1.55)."

Right now, there are threads all over the Web from users who can't get their BD-R/BD-RE discs to play in this player:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=99401&page=2

In addition, the consumer who doesn't know the difference between BDMV and BDAV Blu-ray Disc recording is going to have to read all of this with extreme caution.

Why?

Because many BD-R/BD-RE discs will feature BDAV recordings and not BDMV recordings.

I own a Sony camcorder and other Sony products and I like the ones that I have, but I don't consider myself a "shill" for Sony and I get the impression that some people are more willing than I am to excuse the major mistakes made by the Blu-ray Disc camp to date.

And the mistakes are major for those who want compatibility for home-authored BD-R/BD-RE discs; no doubt about it.

[Dv8ted2]

In a side note, Blockbuster has decided to buy movielink.

source

[Specialist]

By the way, the Sony isn't the only model without decent support for consumer-authored BD-R/BD-RE discs.

Panasonic also seems to have screwed up in the same way.

Example is the Panasonic Blu-ray Disc player... model DMP-BD10AK.

If you visit the Panasonic Web site page for that model...

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?surfModel=DMP-BD10AK&...1&displayTab=R

...look down on the page to the SUPPORT AND RESOURCES TAB.

Click that tab.

Now you should see the link to the OPERATING INSTRUCTIONS PDF.

Open that PDF manual and then go to page 5.

Panasonic clearly states the DMP-BD10AK Blu-ray Disc stand alone player can't play "BD-R/BD-RE v1/v2."

Go to the Pioneer Web page.

Go to the Web page of every Blu-ray Disc player manufacturer.

Some models *do* offer decent support; some models -- many newer models -- don't.

It's a disaster, in my opinion.

[ViRaL1]

How is the support for consumer authored HD-DVDs in comparison?

[Specialist]

Is "HD DVD" compatibility better?

Well, I'll tell you my experience from this past weekend.

I used a $99 Windows video editing software package to edit high definition (HDV) video to a DVD-R disc, which I then carried to the local Circuit City and inserted into a Toshiba HD-A2 "HD DVD" player.

The player instantly recognized the disc, played it flawlessly, and the menus worked perfectly.

That's my personal experience with "HD DVD."

So far, it's a far more friendly format to budget video producers than "Blu-ray Disc."

[MozartMan]

Is "HD DVD" compatibility better?

Well, I'll tell you my experience from this past weekend.

I used a $99 Windows video editing software package to edit high definition (HDV) video to a DVD-R disc, which I then carried to the local Circuit City and inserted into a Toshiba HD-A2 "HD DVD" player.

The player instantly recognized the disc, played it flawlessly, and the menus worked perfectly.

That's my personal experience with "HD DVD."

So far, it's a far more friendly format to budget video producers than "Blu-ray Disc."

The question was about HD DVD, and you said DVD-R. Get the point?