Blockbuster chooses Blu-ray: is the war over?

[FulciLives]

Is "HD DVD" compatibility better?

Well, I'll tell you my experience from this past weekend.

I used a $99 Windows video editing software package to edit high definition (HDV) video to a DVD-R disc, which I then carried to the local Circuit City and inserted into a Toshiba HD-A2 "HD DVD" player.

The player instantly recognized the disc, played it flawlessly, and the menus worked perfectly.

That's my personal experience with "HD DVD."

So far, it's a far more friendly format to budget video producers than "Blu-ray Disc."

The question was about HD DVD, and you said DVD-R. Get the point?

You can author HD-DVD content to a DVD-R disc ... the only limitation is that you can't fit much on it running time wise. Yet it does work.

The point being ... HD-DVD is easier to "deal with" than Blu-Ray.

That was the point that you missed :P

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[guns1inger]

The question was about HD DVD, and you said DVD-R. Get the point?

That is in part the point. The average punter will most likely get a player before they get a burner. That they can create playable discs on their DVD burner that contain HD video is a big plus for any format.

Yes, from a commercial perspective it is of little import, but from a consumer perspective it is an angle that should not be underestimated. It is the only cost effective outlet for all the consumers who have purchased a HD video camera over the past 12 months.

[Specialist]

Correct.

I know of only two sub-$150 consumer-level video editing programs that support both "HD DVD" output and "Blu-ray Disc" output.

Moreover, their "HD DVD" capability is limited to the burning of "HD DVD" images -- with menus -- onto standard consumer DVD-recordable discs.

In addition, their "Blu-ray Disc" capability is limited to "BDAV" (no menus).

So if you want...

1. menus

...and....

2. high definition discs playable in high definition players

...then the only practical consumer choice available right now is "HD DVD" images burned to standard DVD discs.

If you want more than that, you have to pay more... MUCH MORE.

And even if you pay more, you had better watch out.

Even the output from many EXPENSIVE authoring programs CAN'T be played by many current models of players.

I stand by the original statement that "HD DVD" players -- by far -- are more friendly (and less expensive) than Blu-ray Disc players for budget video producers at this point in time.

[Specialist]

One more thing.

There is one reason that somebody might want to buy the $499 Sony Blu-ray Disc player.

While this player probably won't be able to play many types of BD-R/BD-RE discs, it will -- ironically -- play the small 8cm standard DVD discs recorded in AVCHD high definition camcorders as long as you choose a DVD-R/+R or DVD-RW/+RW 8cm disc.

So -- for AVCHD camcorder owners who just want to pop the disc from their camcorder into a player -- the Sony model player makes sense.

I happen to own a Sony AVCHD camcorder.

So I've thought about buying one.

But -- at this point -- I'm more tempted to simply copy the video from the camcorder disc to my hard drive... edit... create menus... and then burn an "HD DVD" disc image to a conventional DVD for playback in an "HD DVD" player.

That way I get nice 16:9 menus.

But every individual's needs are different.

[DereX888]

This whole discussion is just beating around the bush.
At this moment ONE person EVERY ONE HUNDRED is using high-def.
It will supposedly double by next year, which will make it all of TWO people out of 100.
Anyone of you might as well pronounce [choose your format] the winner and I'm sure you won't be wrong (usual error margin for polls is 2%, therefore you can't be wrong ).

But
I bet my very strong (at this moment) loonie (thats canadian dollar) against any of your green bucks, britpounds, or swiss cheese (aka franks, whatever) that in less, much less, than 5 years from now, we all will be using some another high-def format (neither HD-DVD or BD).
Any takers?

[rhegedus]

You can author HD-DVD content to a DVD-R disc ... the only limitation is that you can't fit much on it running time wise. Yet it does work.

The point being ... HD-DVD is easier to "deal with" than Blu-Ray.

That was the point that you missed :P

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

I think the lack of HD-R was being alluded to.

Putting HD content on DVD is equivalent to putting DVD content on CD.

[videopoo]

I bet my very strong (at this moment) loonie (thats canadian dollar) against any of your green bucks, britpounds, or swiss cheese (aka franks, whatever) that in less, much less, than 5 years from now, we all will be using some another high-def format (neither HD-DVD or BD).
Any takers?

I'll take that bet! No way the Studios and their DRM policies are going to go with another format. It's BD and/or HD DVD or nothing at this point. Too much time and money has been invested. The loser has to fly out and buy the other guy lunch

[SatStorm]

Putting HD content on DVD is equivalent to putting DVD content on CD.

Not exactly: With HD DVD, putting HD on DVD-R is on specifics. Puting DVD to CD is -X-. Some standalones support it, but it is not an official choice. HD on DVD-R using HD-DVD authoring is official.

[rhegedus]

I meant with respect to size.

I just burned some BD content to a DVD: it played on PS3. Essentially the PS3 sees the DVD as a data disc and plays it that way.

Whether or not BD standalones will play such material is a different matter, but I suppose the relevance of this is dependent on the number of PS3s sold against the number of BD standalones.

[valvehead]

I think the lack of HD-R was being alluded to.

Actually, there's no lack of HD DVD-R media:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817130016
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817132033
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=3971944
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=4281601
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=4146470

All that is needed now is a burner.

I'm starting to get really fed up with Sony. I love Vegas, but I won't upgrade until they give us a way to author and play our own HD material.[/b]

[MozartMan]

I think the lack of HD-R was being alluded to.

Actually, there's no lack of HD DVD-R media:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817130016
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817132033
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=3971944
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=4281601
http://www.mwave.com/mwave/viewspec.hmx?scriteria=4146470

All that is needed now is a burner.

I'm starting to get really fed up with Sony. I love Vegas, but I won't upgrade until they give us a way to author and play our own HD material.[/b]

What about HD DVD Re-Writable disks?

[SatStorm]

@rhegedus: Interesting! Does it play authored, with menus etc, or just the files?

[rhegedus]

I think the lack of HD-R was being alluded to.

Actually, there's no lack of HD DVD-R media:ria=4146470[/url]

All that is needed now is a burner.

Exactamundo! How long has HD-R been waiting for a burner?

The media is about as useful as a pack of condoms on a desert island.

[rhegedus]

@rhegedus: Interesting! Does it play authored, with menus etc, or just the files?

I didn't use any menus, I just took a 3Gb m2ts file from my Casino Royale rip and authored it back with TsRemux into BDMV and CERTIFICATE folders and just burned it as data.

I suspect the PS3 is treating the DVD with the m2ts file as video data as opposed to BD, but without a BD authoring prog I can't tell for sure.

[Specialist]

Using the PlayStation 3 as a playback device might seem viable now.

But for those who think this is the "answer," be very, very careful.

Why?

Future firmware updates represent real risk for every Sony playback device until we know, for certain, what is motivating the lack of BD-R/BD-RE support in newer Sony devices.

Some individuals claim they've been told by their dealers that Sony is deliberately pressuring manufacturers to remove support for BD-R/BD-RE playback due to concerns that consumers might rip high definition Blu-ray Disc films from commercial discs and then burn them to consumer media.

I don't know if this is true or not; but I would like to find out.

If it's true, then I would be extremely cautious about buying any Sony HD playback device, including the PlayStation 3... because some individuals claim they have been told that future firmware updates might remove support for BD-R/BD-RE playback.

If that's false, then I'd like somebody to point me to a news story where a Sony representative puts his name on the line to deny it.

If it's true, then I'm definitely not interested in investing my money into playback devices with crappy support for consumer-authored BD-R/BD-RE discs.

You can read all about this on the Roxio forums because Roxio currently offers one of the most affordable "BDMV" enabled authoring software for consumer-burned Blu-ray Discs.

Here's a link:

http://forums.support.roxio.com/index.php?showtopic=25294

...and this issue of BD-R/BD-RE compatibility is discussed in several threads here:

http://forums.support.roxio.com/index.php?showforum=120

We need Sony to answer this question definitively.

Otherwise, I would say now is *not* a good time to buy into this technology until we know if this is just a mistake made by the manufacturers or is it something they have done *on purpose* to thwart piracy of Hollywood movies.

My guess is that the home/small business video production market is the least of their concerns.

They're probably more concerned about protecting Hollywood's interests.

The problem with that is that consumers -- faced with an incredibly difficult "firmware fiasco" -- end up getting the short end of the stick.

[Specialist]

One more point.

I would urge caution even with "HD DVD-R" drives.

Toshiba's new $3,199.99 Qoxmio G45-AV680 laptop features an "HD DVD-R" burner.

http://www.toshibadirect.com/td/b2c/pdet.to?seg=HHO&poid=383406

But I don't yet have any experience with burning high definition video to "HD DVD-R" discs.

Not many people do, at this early point.

But if I learn that this laptop can burn "HD DVD-R" discs that *do* play successfully in inexpensive "HD DVD" players, then I'm very likely to go in this direction.

If the "HD DVD-R" discs *don't* play in the "HD DVD" players, then I'll be satisfied -- for now -- with burning "HD DVD" images to standard DVD-R discs... because I know they play.

I've tried it; and it works.

If anybody buys this new Toshiba laptop, and if you test the disc playback, please share your experiences here.

[rhegedus]

Using the PlayStation 3 as a playback device might seem viable now.

But for those who think this is the "answer," be very, very careful.

Why?

Future firmware updates represent real risk for every Sony playback device until we know, for certain, what is motivating the lack of BD-R/BD-RE support in newer Sony devices.

It is possible to downgrade PS3 firmware.

Some individuals claim they've been told by their dealers that Sony is deliberately pressuring manufacturers to remove support for BD-R/BD-RE playback due to concerns that consumers might rip high definition Blu-ray Disc films from commercial discs and then burn them to consumer media.

I don't know if this is true or not; but I would like to find out.

If it's true, then I would be extremely cautious about buying any Sony HD playback device, including the PlayStation 3... because some individuals claim they have been told that future firmware updates might remove support for BD-R/BD-RE playback.

If that's false, then I'd like somebody to point me to a news story where a Sony representative puts his name on the line to deny it.

If it's true, then I'm definitely not interested in investing my money into playback devices with crappy support for consumer-authored BD-R/BD-RE discs.

If, if, if...

You can read all about this on the Roxio forums because Roxio currently offers one of the most affordable "BDMV" enabled authoring software for consumer-burned Blu-ray Discs.

Wow what a salespitch!!!

But then that's not really new, is it...

http://www.ulead.com/userstory/msp/jerryJ.htm

[Specialist]

So I'm a guy who bought Ulead software and I gave them permission to use my testimonial a few years ago.

Big deal; they didn't pay me anything for that.

As for Roxio, I don't own any of their software.

So if you think I'm shilling for Roxio, you are incorrect.

Speaking of shilling, you seem to be quite a shill for Sony.

[rhegedus]

So I'm a guy who bought Ulead software and I gave them permission to use my testimonial a few years ago.

Big deal; they didn't pay me anything for that.

As for Roxio, I don't own any of their software.

So if you think I'm shilling for Roxio, you are incorrect.

You can read all about this on the Roxio forums because Roxio currently offers one of the most affordable "BDMV" enabled authoring software for consumer-burned Blu-ray Discs.

You could have just said, "You can read all about this on the Roxio forums."

Speaking of shilling, you seem to be quite a shill for Sony.

Yeah? All you have to do is find a 'testimonial' of mine on a Sony site.

[Specialist]

You're right; Sony wouldn't want your testimonial.

Especially when so much of what you write is obviously not factual.

And cheap-shot, phony innuendos don't boost one's credibility, either.

[rhegedus]

You're right; Sony wouldn't want your testimonial.

Especially when so much of what you write is obviously not factual.

Such as?

[FulciLives]

I'm starting to get highly annoyed by rhegedus in this here thread.

Do you realize how ******* annoying you are with all your Sony BullShit?

Give it a break man!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[rhegedus]

Really?

Where exactly have I come out with Sony bullshit? I did not start this thread and have only responded to posts made by others.

[DereX888]

I bet my very strong (at this moment) loonie (thats canadian dollar) against any of your green bucks, britpounds, or swiss cheese (aka franks, whatever) that in less, much less, than 5 years from now, we all will be using some another high-def format (neither HD-DVD or BD).
Any takers?

I'll take that bet! No way the Studios and their DRM policies are going to go with another format. It's BD and/or HD DVD or nothing at this point. Too much time and money has been invested. The loser has to fly out and buy the other guy lunch

Its a deal

(AFAIR *that* company is actualy known for notoriously wasting years of R&D and tons of money for often great, yet abandoned formats, devices, gadgets and many others So I hope you won't back out and deny me a free lunch in August 2012 because I'm half the world away )
BTW
I think the companies will sooner rather than later realize, that there is no way to protect any digital files with stuff like DRMs.
Every time they spend billions on new protection, there is always some geek, nerd, or simple black marker to wipe out years of development and mountains of cash spent on it
They were much better off and secure even with plain and unprotected (unfucked by macrovision) VHS tapes than they are with any digital medium, if you think about it...
The ONLY "content protection" they really need, is a LOW PRICE.
If they say they can't go lower than ~$20 then obviously its a lie.
Great movies are often made for less budget than they spend on a single "star" accomodation.
Ever seen old movies (those sold for $5 or less) being pirated?
"New" movies become "old" in few months - and they end up with "on sale" stickers, until finally they are sold for $5-$7 year or two later anyways.
If "new" movie would have been sold since begining for $5, it would have sold in much much much higher volume than it sells for $20, making probably much higher profit, and it would completely eliminate 99% of domestic piracy (unless they'd sell them in the same time overseas as well, then it would eliminate 99% of piracy worldwide perhaps).
But who cares
Thanks to greed of the studio suckers whole bunch of Asian pirates make very good living LOL
/edit/
This is their DRM-ed, protected and secured high-def stuff thats being currently pirated by kids on just one torrent-sharing site (just a part);
note the titles that are not yet available on BD or HD-DVD (apparently these are transport mpeg dumps of off HDTV, supposedly secure and DRM-ed too LOL)

Me thinks you don't need more proof that the studios *will* abandon their current "DRM policies" (and possibly formats) on a whim of anything (supposedly) better coming?

Really?

Where exactly have I come out with Sony bullshit? I did not start this thread and have only responded to posts made by others.

To read one's post does not equal to "must reply"
Buy a dog, go for a walk once in a while...

[jagabo]

"Gamers largely clueless about next-gen console media capabilities"

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070809-report-gamers-largely-clueless-about-nex...abilities.html

[videopoo]

Its a deal biggrin.gif

(AFAIR *that* company is actualy known for notoriously wasting years of R&D and tons of money for often great, yet abandoned formats, devices, gadgets and many others biggrin.gif So I hope you won't back out and deny me a free lunch in August 2012 because I'm half the world away biggrin.gif )

Sounds good....If I lose where will I be going? Also I hope you like Southern California . Talk to you in 2012

[DereX888]

Sounds good....If I lose where will I be going?

South-east Asia

Also I hope you like Southern California . Talk to you in 2012

yes & yes

[lordsmurf]

"Gamers largely clueless

You could stop the sentence there. 8)

[Lucifers_Ghost]

Interesting article ...

===============

http://money.canoe.ca/News/Sectors/Consumer/2007/08/10/4408396-ap.html





LOS ANGELES (AP) — People who own an HD DVD player can forget about watching “Spider-Man 3” in high definition when it goes on sale during the holiday season. The movie from Sony Pictures will only be available in the Blu-ray DVD format.

Likewise, people with Blu-ray players won’t be able to enjoy the action-thriller “The Bourne Ultimatum,” which Universal Pictures will release only in HD DVD.

These exclusive arrangements, plus aggressive price cuts for high-def DVD players, are designed to persuade consumers to finally embrace one format or the other.

But analysts wonder if the moves will anger consumers, just as the studios and consumer-electronics companies are hoping to boost high-def DVD sales as growth in standard DVDs stalls.

“The frustration for consumers is not knowing what format is going to win,” said Chris Roden, an analyst at Parks Associates.

Consumers, many of whom are still smarting from the VCR format battle between VHS and Betamax, need to know their expensive equipment won’t become obsolete if the competing format wins, said Steven J. Caldero, chief operating officer of Ken Crane’s, specialty electronics chain in Southern California.

“People are still frustrated there is a format war to begin with,” he said. “The studios are making people choose. What consumers want is something that will play everything so they don’t have to choose.”

Until recently, many consumers were able to defer the choice because players have been so expensive. But prices have been slashed by about half — Sony Corp.’s Blu-ray player now sells for $499 and Toshiba Corp.’s cheapest HD DVD player sells for $299, with both likely to include as many as five free movies as an incentive. (Players that read both formats remain expensive.)

Both sides are also releasing blockbuster titles such as the new “Pirates of the Caribbean” movie aimed squarely at the demographic most likely to upgrade to high-def.

The stakes couldn’t be higher for Hollywood, which has seen sales of traditional DVDs, once a reliable profit engine, slow to a trickle. Direct digital delivery online, while promising, is still years away from profitability because current Internet capacity simply can’t handle the enormous high-definition files.

Yet consumers remain profoundly confused by the two formats, both of which deliver crisp, clear pictures and sound but are completely incompatible with each other and do not play on older DVD players. Many haven’t even heard of either format.

HD DVD, developed by Toshiba and backed by powerful companies like Microsoft, has the lead in standalone players sold because they are cheaper and hit the market first.

In the United States, standalone HD DVD players have 61 percent market share, while Blu-ray players have 36 percent share and the few dual-format players have a 3 percent share, according to market research company The NPD Group Inc.

But Blu-ray, backed by Sony and a majority of Hollywood studios, got a big boost when Sony introduced its PlayStation 3 game console, which comes standard with a Blu-ray drive. Counting those machines, there are more Blu-ray players out there.

Although Microsoft’s Xbox 360 can play HD DVD movies, the drive has to be bought separately. Only 160,000 drives have been sold so far, compared with 1.5 million PS3 consoles, according to NPD.

In terms of discs sold, Blu-ray has always had the lead. Time Warner Inc.’s Warner Bros. and Viacom Inc.’s Paramount Pictures release movies in both formats, and in such cases Blu-ray has outsold HD DVD by nearly 2-to-1.

Blu-Ray is getting an even bigger boost as Blockbuster Inc. announced it would stock only Blu-ray titles when it expands its high-def DVD offerings this year. Target Inc., the nation’s second-largest retailer, said it will only sell Blu-ray DVD players in its stores in the fourth quarter.

Sony Pictures, News Corp.’s Twentieth Century Fox, The Walt Disney Co., and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer are releasing only in Blu-ray. Universal, owned by General Electric Co., is the only major studio to back HD DVD exclusively.

Nonetheless, Warner Bros. believes both formats can coexist and has been urging Blu-ray backers to begin supporting HD DVD as well. The studio has developed a dual-format disc and has said it would license the technology to other studios willing to back both.

“The fourth quarter is critical for the formats to show growth and momentum,” said Steve Nickerson, Warner Home Video’s senior vice president of marketing. “It’s more than about winning or losing. If you can continue to show growth (in both formats), that’s a positive in a situation where standard DVD sales aren’t growing.”

To counter Blu-ray’s recent gains, the HD DVD camp is planning an advertising campaign touting the interactive elements of the format, which allow users to connect to the Internet to download special features.

“This is not about a high-def movie on a disc,” said Craig Kornblau, president of Universal Studios Home Entertainment. “It’s about a fully immersive experience, connected interactivity.

That’s what is going to separate these high-def formats.”

Kornblau said he isn’t worried about Blu-ray’s momentum and doesn’t believe there’s a need for one to knockout the other.

“To call this market nascent is to a degree to pay it a complement,” he said. “The people who have bought so far aren’t early adopters, they are early, early adopters.”

Analysts said even lower prices for players could be the key to determining a format winner. Some believe that until prices hit the $200 range, consumers simply won’t upgrade from their current machines, many of which cost less than $100.

Chinese-made HD DVD players selling for $199 are expected to hit store shelves by December, while Sony is widely expected to cut the cost of its Blu-ray machine to as low as $299 by year’s end.

“When that occurs, the studios and Sony are going to pull out the big guns,” said Phillip Swann, president of the technology-oriented Web site TVpredictions.com. “They are going to release more titles, big titles, and really go for the kill this holiday season.”

[lordsmurf]

I'd like to point out the sentence: "Many haven’t even heard of either format. "