Panasonic AG-1980P - Chroma Lines

[ENunn]

i'm having this issue that just popped up with my vcr. on some tapes, there are chroma lines and i don't know why it happens.


it shows up on:
-a direct s-video connection from my vcr to my capture card (gv-usb2)
-a direct composite connection from my vcr to my capture card
-a direct s-video connection from my vcr to my other capture card (wintv hvr-1290)
-a direct s-video connection from my vcr to my retrotink 5x
-a direct composite connection from my vcr to my retrotink 5x
-an s-video connection through my dmr-es15

but here's the thing:
-it doesn't show up on a crt through composite
-it doesn't happen when i run my vcr through my datavideo tbc-3000 (s-video or composite)
-it doesn't show up on a direct composite connection to my wintv card
-it doesn't show up on a composite connection through my es15
-it doesn't show up on a dvd recording through s-video on my es15
-it doesn't show up when the tape is paused
-it shows up less when the vcr set to detail/norm, but not fully (it mostly shows up at the bottom of the picture)
-it doesn't show up on all tapes. i've only seen these on retails, some with macrovision, some without. it's not showing up on any of my home recordings that i've tried


here's a screenshot through my tbc-3000. as you can see, the issue isn't there.


what gives? why is it only showing up on certain connection/hardware configurations, and why does it not happen on all tapes?? is my vcr biting the dust?? it got recapped over a year and a half ago.

[aramkolt]

Hard to say since the details of the refurb aren't really known, but who did the recap and what was all recapped? Deter, for example, doesn't change the "through hole" capacitors on the TBC card (only changes the surface mount ones) to my knowledge, but not sure if that is contributing to your issue or not since I always change all electrolytic capacitors during a refurb.

Does it do it when the internal TBC is turned on vs off?

Seems like the difference in what does or doesn't cause the problem comes down to whether the colorburst/sync signal is being rebuilt or not after it leaves the machine. It not being visible on a CRT doesn't really say much since it could just appear more blended, or it might process the colorburst differently. Some capture cards might also tolerate colorburst abnormalities better than others.

On the other hand, since it doesn't do it with all tapes and it is repeatable on tapes that have the problem consistently, it sounds more handling something about those specific tapes in a non-ideal way.

The next step would be to see if this is reproducible across other AG1980's or not with those specific tapes to know whether yours is doing something that others won't. If you want to send me a tape or two, I can verify if my refurbished AG1980's do the same thing or not with those specific tapes, but I don't think this issue is particularly widespread since I haven't seen many other posts about it, though it could just be that most people aren't capturing macrovision/commercially produced tapes to have seen it, or another part of their chain might be masking the issue as you mentioned.

[ENunn]

Hard to say since the details of the refurb aren't really known, but who did the recap and what was all recapped? Deter, for example, doesn't change the "through hole" capacitors on the TBC card (only changes the surface mount ones) to my knowledge, but not sure if that is contributing to your issue or not since I always change all electrolytic capacitors during a refurb.

it wasn't deter. i got the vcr from alitek/the toon archivist who recapped at least the video board. i'll ask him if there was anything else when he's free.

Does it do it when the internal TBC is turned on vs off?

it happens regardless of whether the tbc is on or not.

Seems like the difference in what does or doesn't cause the problem comes down to whether the colorburst/sync signal is being rebuilt or not after it leaves the machine. It not being visible on a CRT doesn't really say much since it could just appear more blended, or it might process the colorburst differently. Some capture cards might also tolerate colorburst abnormalities better than others.

On the other hand, since it doesn't do it with all tapes and it is repeatable on tapes that have the problem consistently, it sounds more handling something about those specific tapes in a non-ideal way.

The next step would be to see if this is reproducible across other AG1980's or not with those specific tapes to know whether yours is doing something that others won't. If you want to send me a tape or two, I can verify if my refurbished AG1980's do the same thing or not with those specific tapes, but I don't think this issue is particularly widespread since I haven't seen many other posts about it, though it could just be that most people aren't capturing macrovision/commercially produced tapes to have seen it, or another part of their chain might be masking the issue as you mentioned.

i might be able to send something sometime. but i found out from someone on the domesday86 discord server that i can filter it out in avisynth.

raw capture, es15:

Mergechroma(separatefields().vinverse().weave())

raw capture, tbc-3000:


at least i can filter it out, it just sucks that the issue is there to begin with. its super weird.

[jagabo]

Those are Hanover bars, the native state of analog pal video.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanover_bars

TVs will filter them out, of course. Some capture devices do, some don't.

[ENunn]

but my VCR is ntsc and my tapes are ntsc. how can that happen?

[jagabo]

Oh, sorry. I should have been paying more attention. Other possible problems: dirty heads, worn heads, bad capacitors, bad cables... I've seen many AG-1980P caps with the same problem here.

[alitek12]

Hey this is Ali, I just came across this while browsing the web. So does this issue only happen with retail tapes? I know usually retail tapes can be a mixed bag when it comes to digitizing. I wonder if it could be the S-Video cable, in my personal case I had many years of banding or whatever you want to call that when I used certain S-Video cables with the Dazzle DVC-100. Finally at some point I replaced the cable and it fixed my issue.

Considering that I recapped TBC board was in full, I wouldn't think it would have to be that. I wonder if the front display board needs a new recap because I know that can interfere with the picture quality also and create interference if not properly recapped.

Is the VCR making a hiss noise when you turn it on? That will tell you if the front display needs a recap.

[ENunn]

hiii ali

it's only happened on retails so far (is the ussb tape in the screenshots I sent a retail? its a promo tape I know that) I haven't come across it on an off air tape...yet. but that might change.

I tried multiple s-video cables and the issue persists on all of them. it even happens through composite on some setups (namely through my retrotink and my gv-usb2).

my VCR isn't making any noise. I forgot what all you recapped lol, thanks for letting me know about that. I could've swore I read online that capacitor replacements don't last that long on 1980s, but I can't find it. it might not be true.

[alitek12]

Hey Enunn, I apologize for not getting back to you about this matter, it's just been a lot of life related matters going on lately.

When I recapped your TBC board, I used Panasonic branded capacitors, they should last a good amount of time. From what I know those original capacitors died out pretty early due to the manufacturing process at the time, even new old stock 1980's I have noticed the video would have the same exact issues. Newer current capacitors shouldn't fail like the original ones as far as I know, they should have a pretty long life ahead.

[ENunn]

it's all good man stuff happens.

that's what I figured. I knew the capacitors were recent and high quality.

the only other thing I can think of that may have caused it is my es15 being on top of my 1980 and being on for months on end. maybe that heated the board up and caused issues. part of me thinks it's not a big deal because I can filter it out in post but I don't know. maybe I should be more concerned if I get more issues with the picture. which thankfully I haven't had any other issues.

[lordsmurf]

That appears to be part of the overscan head-switching noise.
Expected, normal.

[ENunn]

That appears to be part of the overscan head-switching noise.
Expected, normal.

nah it can't be normal. this particular issue shows up on the bottom right area of the screen, sometimes in the whole image. here it is on another tape.


and another


on that particular tape, the issue doesn't show up on input 2, but it shows up on input 1.

[lordsmurf]

For whatever reason, you are getting Hanover lines/bars.
Odd.
That has to be a chrome issue within the VCR.

[Sharc]

-it doesn't show up on all tapes. i've only seen these on retails, .....

You don't know the origin of these retails and how they have been processed. Maybe at one stage they were PAL, and the hanover bars somehow "survived" the conversion to NTSC ..... just guessing.

on that particular tape, the issue doesn't show up on input 2, but it shows up on input 1.

Input 1,2 of what? Can you try with another VCR?

[ENunn]

You don't know the origin of these retails and how they have been processed. Maybe at one stage they were PAL, and the hanover bars somehow "survived" the conversion to NTSC ..... just guessing.

to my knowledge none of these are pal sourced.

Input 1,2 of what? Can you try with another VCR?

the es15. tried my d-vhs deck and the lines aren't there. but that digitizes the signal internally before spitting it out to s-video, so i don't know if it's accurate. plus it's the only other working vcr i have.