Panasonic DVD recorder passthrough settings (DMR-ES10, DMR-ES15, DMR-ES25)

[Thermaltake]

Anyone tried passthrough with DMR-EZ28K ?

[Sharc]

* - I was a bit surprised that it records in 704x576 and not 720x576

704+black borders is normal for Panasonics

Well, the successors of ES10 already recorded in 720x576 (DMR-EH57 etc.).

I assume that those with HDMI output would record in 720x576.
But how is it output on the S-Video OUT? As 704+2*8 sidebars, or as 720x576 filled with picture content?

MPEG2 (HDD/DVD) also records in 720x576.
PAR (HDMI output) is exactly the same as ES10 with its 704x576 (12:11). Of course DAR is different.

Screenshots with PAR 1:1.

No big surprise.
Your ES10 screenshot is the 704x576 picture expanded by SAR 12/11 -> 768x576 (your screenshot 1)
The EH585 HDMI picture got deinterlaced, slightly cropped on the left (about 8 pixels into the active picture) and padded (or overscanned) to 720 adding black borders, then expanded by SAR 12/11 -> 785x576 (your screenshot 2).
As a capture and master for postprocessing I prefer the interlaced ES10 version.

[rgr]

wow it really clears the picture and stabilize it.

Remember that the quality of both frames is not comparable, because the ES10 frame is interlaced and the EH585 frame is deinterlaced (which improves its quality). The images were only to show aspect ratio.

[rgr]

MPEG2 (HDD/DVD) also records in 720x576.
PAR (HDMI output) is exactly the same as ES10 with its 704x576 (12:11). Of course DAR is different.

Screenshots with PAR 1:1.

No big surprise.
Your ES10 screenshot is the 704x576 picture expanded by SAR 12/11 -> 768x576 (your screenshot 1)
The EH585 HDMI picture got deinterlaced, slightly cropped on the left (about 8 pixels into the active picture) and padded (or overscanned) to 720 adding black borders, then expanded by SAR 12/11 -> 785x576 (your screenshot 2).

Yes.

As a capture and master for postprocessing I prefer the interlaced ES10 version.

Right. Unfortunately, my HDMI grabber cannot capture interlaced video. But you don't lose much, because I see Panasonic makes quite a simple and reversible deinterlace. When the OSD is on the screen, it looks even better than QTGMC with default settings.

[Thermaltake]

wow it really clears the picture and stabilize it.

Remember that the quality of both frames is not comparable, because the ES10 frame is interlaced and the EH585 frame is deinterlaced (which improves its quality). The images were only to show aspect ratio.

So If I capture with ES10 passthrough with JVC S9760E picture quality should be better ? As I see on most comparison here.

[Sharc]

wow it really clears the picture and stabilize it.

Remember that the quality of both frames is not comparable, because the ES10 frame is interlaced and the EH585 frame is deinterlaced (which improves its quality). The images were only to show aspect ratio.

So If I capture with ES10 passthrough with JVC S9760E picture quality should be better ? As I see on most comparison here.

Yes. Just do it.

[Thermaltake]

wow it really clears the picture and stabilize it.

Remember that the quality of both frames is not comparable, because the ES10 frame is interlaced and the EH585 frame is deinterlaced (which improves its quality). The images were only to show aspect ratio.

So If I capture with ES10 passthrough with JVC S9760E picture quality should be better ? As I see on most comparison here.

Yes. Just do it.

Do I need to turn off all enhancements on my vcr like video stabilization, tbc and B.E.S.T when I connect ES10 ?

[rgr]

Turn off video stabilization, it works terrible. BEST on + mode: edit (just below BEST setting).

[Thermaltake]

Turn off video stabilization, it works terrible. BEST on + mode: edit (just below BEST setting).

Thank. And TBC will turn off on it's own when I connect passthrough or I need to do it manually ?

[Thermaltake]

Got dvd player today ES10 but need to recap to whole PSU unite, it has 2 leaked and 1 buldged cap. It's working but funny working.


EDIT:
Ordered all caps, going to replace all 13 caps on power supply board. And two funny RJX and RJF caps on motherboard, hoping after that everything will be ok, I clean the player, clean the lens everything looks great now inside, except those caps that needs replacement.

[rgr]

Turn off video stabilization, it works terrible. BEST on + mode: edit (just below BEST setting).

Thank. And TBC will turn off on it's own when I connect passthrough or I need to do it manually ?

And I don't know that. It's best to download the manual, it is generally useful to read the "Playback" section. Perhaps in models with TBC the "video stabilizer" option refers to the TBC.

[Thermaltake]

Ok, will do. Thanks.

[dellsam34]

Ok, will do.

I noticed something on my VCR while digitalizing tapes. When my VCR is cold and when I insert tape to record same tape that I record the day after when VCR was hot, it record it without any sutter or maybe just one stutter in like hour maybe even without any. Why is that ? Could it be that capacitors are weak or something ?

This is not the right section to post for VCR problems, This is for DVD recorders.

[Thermaltake]

Ok, will do.

I noticed something on my VCR while digitalizing tapes. When my VCR is cold and when I insert tape to record same tape that I record the day after when VCR was hot, it record it without any sutter or maybe just one stutter in like hour maybe even without any. Why is that ? Could it be that capacitors are weak or something ?

This is not the right section to post for VCR problems, This is for DVD recorders.

Sorry my bad.

[rgr]

[ deleted ]

Nevermind: I found out that ES10 only accepts NTSC3.58, not 4.43.

[Bartoloni]

Hi guys, any idea if there is a way to reduce the brightness of EUROPEAN DMRs used as passthrough?
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/414910-Panasonic-DMR-E55H-%28pal%29-and-E85H-%28pa...ht#post2741803

i'm losing details on white spots... 3 DMR recorder are doing the same and the EUROPEAN firmware is lacking any adjustment.

[Alwyn]

Just drop the levels a bit (Brightness and Contrast) in your digister's proc amp. I made up a adjuster box for the Luma line of the S-Video cable, but the result was basically the same as adjusting the proc amp. If you're not into AVISynth, I've written a guide on using Virtual Dub's histogram to set the levels here.

[Sharc]

Just drop the levels a bit (Brightness and Contrast) in your digister's proc amp. I made up a adjuster box for the Luma line of the S-Video cable, but the result was basically the same as adjusting the proc amp.....

Yes, this is the first remedy to try. However, adjusting the "proc amp" settings of the capture device only helps if the analog input of the DVD recorder and the analog input of the capture device are not overdriven by a too strong signal.

[rgr]

Isn't it enough to change the range afterwards?

From my extensive research it turns out that the details are not lost, but they are outside the 16-235 range.

[Sharc]

Isn't it enough to change the range afterwards?

From my extensive research it turns out that the details are not lost, but they are outside the 16-235 range.

You can always make such adjustments as long as your luma is not clipped in the 0....255 range. However, when clipping happens at the analog level or by overdriving the A/D converter, adjusting the "proc amp" setting does not help to recover anything because one would only shift the clipped signal up or down. One cannot "unclip" the signal. What is lost is lost.
I put "proc amp" in quotation marks because with USB dongles (for example) these adjustments are done at digital level AFTER the digitization, means after the A/D conversion. So when the A/D converter or any other analog circuit in the signal path is overdriven (=clipping) these digital "proc amp" adjustments won't help to recover anything. One would just shift the straight and sharp horizontal luma values in the waveform monitor up and down.

Edit:
Here a demo how one can recover the picture when the luma is not clipped in the 0...15 or 236...255 range (superdarks, superbrights)

Edit2:
You can also use this demo clip to check how your player/TV displays superdarks and superbrights. If so, you will see something vaguely in the middle picture rather than just solid black or white.

[lollo]

Isn't it enough to change the range afterwards?

From my extensive research it turns out that the details are not lost, but they are outside the 16-235 range.

As Sharc already explained, if you are able to recover them is because they are not lost, but captured in the range 0-16 or 235-255. But the procamps of most of the captures cards act only at digital level once the input analog signal has been digitized. It is helpful only to stay in the capture range of the capture card (that's why I always say to set to the capturable input range and not to 16-235 range) avoiding loss of not capturable details.

But if the problem is at analog input level, only a luma reduction before the capturing process (as showed in the German forum for the Panasonic DVD Recorders used in passthrough mode) is effective.

[Sharc]

... that's why I always say to set to the capturable input range and not to 16-235 range) avoiding loss of not capturable details.

The problem with capturing to the full or "capturable" (max.) range using huffyuv lossless for example is that some NLEs convert the YUV immediately to expanded full range RGB at import time. Means Y(0...16) and Y(236....255) get clipped, unrecoverable. See pdr's many comments about certain NLE's mistreating certain lossless YUV codecs. So one must "legalize" the YUV captures before opening them in these NLEs to avoid unrecoveralble clipping, or use an NLE which stays in YUV colorrange, or converts to float RGB.
Capturing to 16....235 a priori increases quantization noise / banding a bit though, but is otherwise generally safer IMO.

[lollo]

Yes, but is is better to capture in the allowed card range and then reduce the range to 16-235 in post-processing (AviSynth and dithering) rather than do it while capturing with the procamp

[Sharc]

Yes, but is is better to capture in the allowed card range and then reduce the range to 16-235 in post-processing ...

That's part of the highly recommended "legalizing" which I mentioned

[rgr]

But if the problem is at analog input level, only a luma reduction before the capturing process (as showed in the German forum for the Panasonic DVD Recorders used in passthrough mode) is effective.

I have a Toshiba VCR which Panasonic DMR captures to a range of 16-255 (but from a Panasonic VCR to a range of 16-235). All I need to do is shift the digitized video to the range of 16-235.

[Bartoloni]

Isn't it enough to change the range afterwards?

From my extensive research it turns out that the details are not lost, but they are outside the 16-235 range.

using PAL units, and connecting a TV at the video-out of DMR.. the brightness/luma level is much higher .. and details on very white areas are lost... this not seems to be related to the capture card not capturing 0-15 range... but just something wrong with the video chip that is doing the "stabilization" job)...
tried using any combination of Video inputs and video outputs... via scart composite... svideo.. component... same levels on output (too bright)

[rgr]

Isn't it enough to change the range afterwards?

From my extensive research it turns out that the details are not lost, but they are outside the 16-235 range.

using PAL units, and connecting a TV at the video-out of DMR.. the brightness/luma level is much higher .. and details on very white areas are lost... this not seems to be related to the capture card not capturing 0-15 range... but just something wrong with the video chip that is doing the "stabilization" job)...
tried using any combination of Video inputs and video outputs... via scart composite... svideo.. component... same levels on output (too bright)

Depends on the VCR. It's best to include a sample. It can be MPG from the recorder.

[Brad]

Clipping of overly-bright details happens with both the NTSC and PAL units. You can verify that it's happening internally and can't be recovered on the capture card side by comparing to either a MPEG-2 DVD recording or HDMI capture, depending on the unit.

NTSC examples including HDMI captures: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-w...e7#post2341969

[rgr]

Clipping of overly-bright details happens with both the NTSC and PAL units. You can verify that it's happening internally and can't be recovered on the capture card side by comparing to either a MPEG-2 DVD recording or HDMI capture, depending on the unit.

NTSC examples including HDMI captures: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-w...e7#post2341969

It's hard for me to comment on this, because I don't use DMR-ES15/25, only DMR-EH575/585. And I get a signal without clipping at the output (or in other words: there is data in the range of 235-255, and how much depends on the VCR). At least in the MPG file, but I suspect it's identical via HDMI.

And another note. By copying the same fragment of a VHS tape several times, you can get a different histogram each time, depending on what the VCR automation considers appropriate.