UK DMR-ES10 For capture

[Standard Definition]

Hey all,

Given the scarcity of N. American Panasonic ES-10s on the market, can anyone tell me if using the UK version would there be any difference for capture setting ie. in Vdub. after plugging it into a proper up/down converter for use here? I'll be using S-vid connections.

Thanks in advance,
SD

[Eric-jan]

As far as i know the US (NTSC) versions don't have the SCART RGB option, RGB in SCART was used to have better quality then composite, on CRTv's and was used for TELETEXT/CEEFAX passthrough, so this will be also difference in the menu settings of the recorder.
Most of the time it is an advantage to have a EU/UK model….. there's a Sticky Subject for the Panasonic recorders, maybe that will contain some of your answers for your questions..
What i discovered for my combo ES35V is, that US version akso has the VHS refresh "feature"
Canada had also SECAM as tv-system in de past ? A US model would not have any options for that ?

[Standard Definition]

Thank you much for your response Eric-jan. I am familiar with the SCART connection and it's benefit over composite connections.

I thought I had read somewhere on this forum a while back that prior to capture there is an option, say in Vdub or maybe it was another software, that one can pick a hz setting prior to capture ie. 50hz or 60hz etc.. I am wondering if this is necessary for those of us that use devices such as a UK a version of this recorder in N. America due to the input power supply difference i.e. lower hz.....50hz over there instead of 60hz here.

Would this difference, despite converting the volts / amps and hz from UK to N.American standard necessitate a change in any setting in capture software. If all is fine w/using the ES-10 after converting the power w/o no setting change, then that is perfect and what I was hoping to find out here.

Thanks again for your feedback. I was starting to wonder if my post was visible to others so you have put my mind at ease for that.

Cheers,
SD

[Standard Definition]

Will check out the "sticky" you mention as well.

[Eric-jan]

Will check out the "sticky" you mention as well.

The other difference i know also is the blacklevels are different between NTSC and PAL > IRE
NTSC = 7.5 PAL and NTSC Japan = 0.0
If you have a good Analog to Digital (SDI or HDMI) converter, you can also try the (red green blue) RCA component output when available, and when
VHS is also outputed over this ofcourse… most of the time interlaced or progressive can be selected, The EU/SCART models should also be selected for component video, and not for RGB, because RGB SCART and RCA component can't be used at the same time, the manual has all the info for that.
I guess which codec you use to capture, makes some difference too, lossless or invisible lossless is preffered.
further… frame rate differs, PAL and NTSC have different frame rates both 2 fields due to the mains frequency of EU 50Hz and USA 60Hz there's a wiki that explains it very well, for Vdub there are already many posts about this on the forums.
Important is that you know what the tv-system format of your video tapes are, are they PAL, NTSC, or MESECAM and will the VHS player/vcr output that also correctly, an EU/SCART (dvd/combo) recorder should be no problem to pass that through, or record, pre-recorded (official duplicates) can have copy protection in the form of Macrovision.
Upconversion is not wanted/advised most of the time, this does not add any advantage, this also means that sometimes the aspect ratio changes or have added black bars at the sides.

[Standard Definition]

Am on your link page now - thanks.

Will be using my JVC S9500U either with:

I-O DATA Video Capture USB Connection GV-USB2 (arriving today) or my ADVC 110 to convert w/Vdub1.9.X....

S-vid will be the connection and will shoot for an uncompressed signal.....i.e. Huffy or Lagarith codec.. Will be doing some testing soon. I am aware that DV is a bit compressed and that the I-O DATA can capture lossless or so I read.

[Standard Definition]

Sorry - there was no additional link sent. misunderstood the VH update notification.

Cheers,

SD

[usually_quiet]

Operating instructions for Panasonic DMR-ES10 DVD recorders that includes information for both a SCART version of the recorder and a US version of the recorder: https://panasonic.ca/viewing/all/dmr-es10/oi/rqt8020-1l/rqt8020-1l.pdf

When playing an NTSC DVD, the version of the DMR-ES10 recorder with SCART can output a PAL 60 analog signal which has the same number of lines as NTSC (525) and a 60Hz refresh rate like NTSC but with the PAL color subcarrier at 4.43mhz, which NTSC doesn't provide. However, that doesn't mean that they could accept a PAL 60 analog signal or NTSC analog signal as input.

The UK version of the Panasonic DMR ES10 DVD recorder (with SCART) is almost certainly designed to only accept PAL analog signals as input and then output PAL analog signals because the analog sources they were intended to record from all used the PAL standard. UK analog TV broadcasts used the PAL standard, UK video cameras used the PAL standard, and UK VCRs output video that used the PAL standard when playing homemade tapes recorded from UK TV.

[Eric-jan]

I-O DATA Video Capture USB Connection GV-USB2 ……. in this range an Elgato or Avermedia device would be better, but these devices are generally not that good.
Capturing these days by computer is very tricky, there's a lot to considder, due to the many variables, most of the time the new operating systems ar not compatible with old devices, or crappy china products.
ES10 SCART https://www.manualslib.com/download/798874/Panasonic-Diga-Dmr-Es10.html

Newer Panasonic models will have more options then the ES10

[oln]

The UK version of the Panasonic DMR ES10 DVD recorder (with SCART) is almost certainly designed to only accept PAL analog signals as input and then output PAL analog signals because the analog sources they were intended to record from all used the PAL standard.

That's not correct, it (and other european model panasonic dvd-recorders from that year and on) can handle standard NTSC. They can be switched between PAL/SECAM (625-line) and NTSC (525-line) in the menus.

As noted in the other thread, you preferably want to use s-video via the scart output, or the component output to avoid a brightness flashing issue.

[Standard Definition]

Greatly appreciate the info. and link, usually_quiet.

Was considering placing a bid on a UK ES-10 being put up for auction and which is ending in 30 or so minutes. You and Eric-jan's feedback has helped.Will hold off and keep looking for a N. American unit hopefully in good order.

[lordsmurf]

I have the PAL ES10, and it can swap modes to NTSC. It works fine via s-video in/out. (But I bought it for PAL needs, don't use it for NTSC. Already have NTSC version, bought on release day in 05/06, whenever it was.)

ES10 works great for anti-tearing needs, when net result is better outcome that other hardware/methods. Noting that it's not a TBC, not a TBC replacement. But it can be useful in the right situations.

[Standard Definition]

Thanks as well, oln for chiming in w/ with your experience.

[Eric-jan]

Greatly appreciate the info. and link, usually_quiet.

Was considering placing a bid on a UK ES-10 being put up for auction and which is ending in 30 or so minutes. You and Eric-jan's feedback has helped.Will hold off and keep looking for a N. American unit hopefully in good order.

Page from ES10 manual

[Standard Definition]

Will wait for a good looking NTSC version as well. Sorry to hear that the I-O Data GV-USB2 arriving shortly may not be that good of a product. Thought I had read on here in a few posts that it was fairly good. Hopefully it is not one of the ones from China selling thru a fake Japanese Ebay account or whatever. Fingers crossed that it may be a

[Eric-jan]

Will wait for a good looking NTSC version as well. Sorry to hear that the I-O Data GV-USB2 arriving shortly may not be that good of a product. Thought I had read on here in a few posts that it was fairly good. Hopefully it is not one of the ones from China selling thru a fake Japanese Ebay account or whatever. Fingers crossed that it may be a

Well, if this particular model was mentioned it could be above average from what is expected from these types of EZcap devices, the price is also in the higher range,
it also helps to switch off background tasks that are running, all depends how "strong" the pc/laptop is, also a capture device with USB3 can perform better than a USB2 device.

[Standard Definition]

Thank you too, lordsmurf!

[usually_quiet]

That's not correct, it (and other european model panasonic dvd-recorders from that year and on) can handle standard NTSC. They can be switched between PAL/SECAM (625-line) and NTSC (525-line) in the menus.

I missed that section, on P. 39 in the manual.

TV SYSTEM

Change this setting if you connect an NTSC television or to record NTSC video from another source.

1 While stopped Press [FUNCTIONS].
2 Press [e, r] to select “To Others” and press [ENTER].
3 Press [e, r] to select “SETUP” and press [ENTER].
4 Press [e, r] to select “Connection” and press [q].
5 Press [e, r] to select “TV System” and press [ENTER].
6 Press [e, r] to select the TV system and press [ENTER].

•PAL (factory preset)
– Select when connecting to a PAL or Multi-system television. Programmes recorded using NTSC are played as PAL 60.
– Select to record television programmes and PAL input from other equipment.

• NTSC
– Select when connecting to a NTSC television. Television programmes cannot be recorded properly.
– Select to record NTSC input from other equipment. The confirmation screen appears.

The only source that it can't record from is the analog tuner since it isn't an NTSC tuner.

[Standard Definition]

Good to know for the future - Thanks again to all!

[Alwyn]

I-O DATA Video Capture USB Connection GV-USB2 ……. in this range an Elgato or Avermedia device would be better, but these devices are generally not that good.

Do you actually own the GV-USB2? I do, and it is very good, as good as the Live2, 710-USB and the USB3HDCAP.

[lollo]

Will be using my JVC S9500U either with:

I-O DATA Video Capture USB Connection GV-USB2 (arriving today) or my ADVC 110 to convert w/Vdub1.9.X....

If your tapes are in good conditions you may not need anything more. JVC S9500 is one of the best VCR and I-O DATA GV-USB2 one of the recommended capture card.

Add the ES-10 only for problematic tapes where the lineTBC correction of the VCR in not enough.

Capture Y/C signal in YUV 4:2:2 lossless; use AmarecTV instead VirtualDub, especially if your OS is Windows 10.

No component signals, no combo player devices, no upscaler devices. The statement "Capturing these days by computer is very tricky" is quite false in your case.

[Eric-jan]

[QUOTE=lollo;2686330]

The statement "Capturing these days by computer is very tricky" is quite false in your case.

Still i think it's valid, not everyone, who is starting/trying to capture has all the knowledge needed, hence (still) the need for forums like these here, and ohters,
There's a lot of negative response, towards starting users, in the form of "the best is only good enough" most starting users have a tight budget, and have no idea which details are important, and it takes time for this to kick in, plus, only few USB dongles are above EZcrap standard, and which are exceptions is not always very clear, or which details make them worthless.
Also, updates to operating systems, and upgrades to computer hardware specs have a negative effect on existing capture capture setups/devices, this is both valid for Microsoft windows, and Mac.

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[Standard Definition]

Hi lollo,

I did quite a bit of looking around on DigitalFAQ and this website for feedback on which device to purchase. It came down to the one I bought, the Hauppauge Live 2 (such as shown on your ytube channel) or perhaps a Pinnacle USB 510 / 710 USB. At the end of the day it was still a bit of a toss-up and although none seem perfect it seemed like GV-USB2 might be worth a try if I could get my hands on an authentic one and none cheap Chinese copy as it could do uncompressed AVI. I checked out some of the vids. on your channel and many of your posts along w/lordsmurf and many others which was quite helpful. Nice to see the results you get w/ your S9500U and Live 2USB.

The tests with the GV-USB2 thus far have been thru both programs you mention, AmarecTV / Vdub 1.9...... on Win10 w/S9500 set with TBC (ON), S-Vid connection to I-O capture device, R3, Vid stabilizer (off). 720 X 480 avi w/ Lagarith capture on device. Am not upscaling or applying any filters at this point. Trying to get my head around the best basic capture at the moment.

Currently I am experimenting with and trying to decide whether to leave the Video calibration on or off for best results. I guess it depends on the tape in some cases. There is also a "Tape Dub" setting, i.e. perhaps the mysterious "EDIT" setting mentioned previously by other posters also being on our deck but which I can not find anywhere in the function setup menu. I am making an assumption that the Tape Dub setting is what is meant. Any thoughts on whether this should be left off or should I turn it on? I believe one of the other users, Oln says to turn this on as it might turn off some unwanted processing. I'll do some tests on this.

If I'm lucky enough to get my hands on a decent one, any ES-10 will only be used for those problematic tapes in the future as you say. Have also been checking out older Datavideo SE-800s for an external TBC should the line TBC of the S9500 not play well with some tapes. Not sure about it's TBC though as it is an older unit (not sure how good the TBCs were back then) with features I don't feel I would ever use so am still to do some research on that. Would be nice if the TBC-1000s and certain Big Voodoos were still available new or more plentiful used in good condition at reasonable price today!

The I-O GV VHS caps I've made thus far do not seem to play back (look) too well w/VLC. This is could be an issue w/ some of my settings in VLC, age / condition of VHS recording I'm capturing and use of an LCD monitor. I am going thru the VLC settings and setting them to default. They look fine played back in Vdub and Win Media Player. Vdub seems to capture with the I-O GV fine. I had to connect the ADVC 110 to the computer via it's firewire to get the capture device recognized in Windows for capture in Amarec and Vdub though. I found that odd. Was having a heck of a time and felt like pulling out some hair.

Anyway, also have an early 90's Sony 20inch Trinitron which I'll be hooking up and using for future monitoring and cap eval.. It's in great shape but so far only playing back the caps on LCD / LED computer monitors which doesn't look too pretty.... at least for the older VHS caps..

I have a few screen grabs of my AmarecTV settings. Could I get your feedback on them. I think they are correct but not sure. Won't be doing any live streaming, just VHS (S9500U), Hi8 and 8mm caps (Sony DCR-TRV530 enroute) . Thanks again. SD


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[Standard Definition]

[QUOTE=Eric-jan;2686364][QUOTE=lollo;2686330]

The statement "Capturing these days by computer is very tricky" is quite false in your case.

Still i think it's valid, not everyone, who is starting/trying to capture has all the knowledge needed, hence (still) the need for forums like these here, and ohters


Agreed and thanks to you all again. This discussion and all that I have read have been very helpful.

[lollo]

Still i think it's valid, not everyone, who is starting/trying to capture has all the knowledge needed, hence (still) the need for forums like these here, and ohters

I am not saying that no help is needed, that's why this forum exists. I meant that the "computer" route is not that difficult once you have the right workflow, as it is the case here. And will provide much better results than the (supposed) easier way.

I did quite a bit of looking around ...

Thanks for sharing your experience with many details!

mysterious "EDIT" setting ...

In general I prefer the "edit"=off setting, together with "d3r"=on (this processing is what makes the image of the high end JVC S-VHS nice). But there is some higher ghosting at scene change, because the chroma noise reduction. On top of that, it also dependes on the tape, and finally I often use also the mode "edit"=on and "d3r"=off.

Some discussion here:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/399048-JVC-HR-S9600-comparisons#post2597201
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/401232-JVC-S-VHS-settings-for-capture-%28again%29

Some comparison here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1jpyNRGNGY&list=PLCvrZEXO1laHx3S8NbicMC7e3mAr6svPh&pp=gAQB

Could I get your feedback on them. Any thoughts on whether this should be left off or should I turn it on?

They are ok. I use "999" as frame rate to force AmarecTV to capture at the framerate of the card, rather than at its setting. And do not deinterlace in preview window, to do not add extra activity while capturing.
A guide to AmarecTV settings here: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12986-amarectv-virtualdub-inserts.html

[Standard Definition]

Thanks for clarifying any confusion as well as for your feedback and the links, lollo

I will alter the framerate back to 999, turn off deinterlacing in preview and keep experimenting. At some point I'll check back in w/ some observations and perhaps clips or some such.

I am hoping to learn how to apply AviSynth and QTMG (sp?) to my caps as soon as I can. Looks a bit more complicated and am not quite there yet.

Anyway, and sorry for this redundancy, I still wonder whether that "EDIT" feature that you mention having on your S9500 is the same as the "TAPE DUB MODE" setting option under the N. American S9500 Main Menu - Function Set? , SD


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[Standard Definition]

The "Tape Dub" setting issue has been answered. Dug up and read the old manual.

Turned on it does turn off the Active Calibration. By appearance it also seems to be turning off some other filtering that's going on behind the scenes but that is not stated in the manual as I read it. There is a noticeable increase in noise in the video playback when on.

I have no doubt that this has already been noticed or known about by others on the board and posted about on the forum.

[lollo]

I am hoping to learn how to apply AviSynth and QTMG (sp?) to my caps as soon as I can. Looks a bit more complicated and am not quite there yet.

You can start from here: https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/12549-deinterlacing-video-sharing.html#post82958

[Standard Definition]

Thanks for the links.

I have been to your Avisynth page in the past and I thought the results were impressive. The processed clips do appear cleaner, w/ better color and sharper.

Look forward to giving it a go......I still have some hair left to pull out.