interlace help

[jagabo]

I think I get you a little bit.
Handbrake always passes video as prograsive.

No. The frames that are passed to the encoder may be interlaced or progressive. But Handbrake always tells the encoder the frames are progressive.

[edDV]

I think I get you

If both fields are displayed at the same time this is a prograsive Frame.

And if both fields have to be interlaced like we talked about above this is Interlaced Frame.

I do get this so I think it is the way I am asking things so I am going to put it another way.

Handbrake has all these diferant settings for De Interlacing and Decomb and you can do a lot for De Interlace.
So when you do any kind of De Interlace you are making it Prograsive?
Am I right on this?

So this tells me Handbrake is for taking interlaced video and making it prograsive?
Am I right on this?

Think of Handbrake as a car with manual transmission. The user selects the method by which interlace or progressive input files get filtered. The user must analyze the source file to know how to set the filters. The user must determine whether the source should be considered normal interlace, telecine interlace, 23.976 progressive (soft telecine), 29.97 progressive or 59.94 progressive. Some of the needed information is provided by a programs like Mediainfo* or GSpot* but the user must do further analysis to detemine hard or soft telecine.

Think of an HDTV video processor as a car with automatic transmission. HDTV processors accept a narrower set of formats that are more predictable. If the frame rate is 59.94 or 23.976, the TV assumes progressive. If the incoming frame rate is 29.97, the TV processor must analyze for the hard telecine field repeat pattern. If it finds telecine, it switches in the inverse telecine filter. If it does not find telecine, it switches to an adaptive deinterlacer. The sophistication of the deinterlacer will vary.


* Mediainfo and GSpot just report header data. The actual video may differ from the header information.

[nymph4444]

That is what I ment.

Handbrake has all these De Interlace settings because it pass everything as Prograsive.
So even if you set De Interlace to OFF Handbrake still puts a weave so it can pass it as Prograsive?

[jagabo]

I give up.

[edDV]

So that is the big picture but we are still at step 1.

We are near 100% certain that the "Land of the Lost" TV series is normal interlace although there may be some 23.976 elements in the effects sequences. How do we know this? First Mediainfo reported 29.97 fps. That is all the information you've told us so far. Second I researched the production history for the series and found the stage scenes were shot at a film studio lot* but with video cameras from Compact Video of Burbank**. We also know Compact Video composited the effects scenes in video equipment. It is not known whether the stop frame puppet animations were done at 29.97 or 23.976 rate or less. This could be determined by further frame by frame analysis.


* General Service Studios in Hollywood now known as Hollywood Center Studios.

** Compact Video specialized in mobile video production equipment that could be used on a film lot or film stage. By doing so, a producer could use all the props and services of a film studio but shoot and edit in less expensive video format. They pioneered the methods later used for HD TV series production today. And this was in 1974.

[edDV]

That is what I ment.

Handbrake has all these De Interlace settings because it pass everything as Prograsive.
So even if you set De Interlace to OFF Handbrake still puts a weave so it can pass it as Prograsive?

Didn't we all agree to that several pages back? Are you reading anything since?

The only important mode missing from Handbrake is passing interlace input to x264 as interlace. x264 is capable of interlace h.264 encoding but Handbrake does not support that mode. Handbrake only outputs progressive video.

We also established that several pages back. It's now time to encode something.

[Gavino]

If the two fields are from the same picture the frame is progressive. If the two fields are from different pictures the frame is interlaced.

I think I get you

If both fields are displayed at the same time this is a prograsive Frame.

No, it is a progressive frame if both fields were filmed at the same time.
That in turn determines how it should be displayed.

[jagabo]

The only important mode missing from Handbrake is passing interlace input to x264 as interlace.

It can pass interlaced frames to x264. It just can't tell h.264 the frame is interlaced.

[nymph4444]

OK I am sorry but this is were you loss me.

I get what you say about Handbrake is a GUi interface over all the codecs.
And even if you set De Interlace to OFF it still does a De Interlace weave because it has to do some kind of De Interlace to pass it along.

Do I have these 2. things right?

[edDV]

OK I am sorry but this is were you loss me.

I get what you say about Handbrake is a GUi interface over all the codecs.
And even if you set De Interlace to OFF it still does a De Interlace weave because it has to do some kind of De Interlace to pass it along.

Do I have these 2. things right?

Not quite. Let's try to explain it this way.

The VOB gets decoded to fields then odd and even fields get grouped into a frame.

If the original video was interlace, the two fields were originally sampled 1/60th apart in time.
If the original video was progressive, the two fields were originally sampled at the same time.

In OFF mode, Handbrake tells the x264 encoder that the frame is progressive in both cases.
In Deinterlace, Decomb or Detelecine mode, Handbrake assumes the source is interlace.

So, in Deinterlace or Decomb mode, 29.97 fps interlace will be converted to 29.97 fps progressive h.264.

In Detelecine mode, the inverse telecine filter will be invoked resulting in 23.976 fps progressive h.264. This will only work if the original file was interlace hard telecine.

In OFF mode, original progressive video gets encoded as progressive.

In OFF mode, original interlace video gets encoded as progressive. In this mode, a weaved progressive frame shows line split during motion.

[jagabo]

even if you set De Interlace to OFF it still does a De Interlace weave because it has to do some kind of De Interlace to pass it along.

How many times have I said this? Every MPEG 2 decoder outputs interlaced video as pairs of fields woven into frames. If you don't use the deinterlace funtions, Handbrake doesn't do anything to the frames. It just passes them along to x264. But it neglects to tell x264 the frames are interlaced.

1) Handbrake asks the MPEG 2 decoder for one frame of video.
2) The MPEG 2 decoder decompresses one frame and says, "here's your frame, it's interlaced".
3) Handbrake passes the frame to x264 saying "please compress this frame of video, it's progressive."
4) x264 compresses the interlaced frame as if it's progressive because that's what Handbrake told it to do.

Steps 1 to 4 are repeated until the entire video is converted.

[nymph4444]

OK so nomatter if I put an interlaced video or a prograsive video Into Handbrake.
Handbrake will always tell the H246 it is Prograsive.

[jagabo]

OK so nomatter if I put an interlaced video or a prograsive video Into Handbrake.
Handbrake will always tell the H246 it is Prograsive.

Yes.

[edDV]

OK so nomatter if I put an interlaced video or a prograsive video Into Handbrake.
Handbrake will always tell the H246 it is Prograsive.

Yes but in Deinterlace, Decomb or Detelecine modes it actually converts interlace to progressive.

The quality of the conversion is a trade off with processing time and the quality of the source.

DVD conversions usually go well.

[jagabo]

In short:

progressive source --> progressive output: ok
interlaced source --> deinterlaced --> progressive output: ok
interlaced source --> progressive output: bad

[nymph4444]

OK I get it now.

Handbrake always tells H246 that it is geting a Prograsive video.

This is why even if I set De Interlace to OFF Handbrake will step in a give it a De Interlace weave.
Because Handbrake must give some kind of Prograsive video to H246.

Do I have it right?

[jagabo]

This is why even if I set De Interlace to OFF Handbrake will step in a give it a De Interlace weave.
Because Handbrake must give some kind of Prograsive video to H246.

Do I have it right?

No. Handbrake gets interlaced frames from the MPEG decoder and hands those interlaced frames to x264. It just tells x264 the frames are progressive.

[edDV]

OK I get it now.

Handbrake always tells H246 that it is geting a Prograsive video.

This is why even if I set De Interlace to OFF Handbrake will step in a give it a De Interlace weave.
Because Handbrake must give some kind of Prograsive video to H246.

Do I have it right?

No. In OFF mode it sends two fields as a frame with instructions that the frame is progressive. Then x264 weaves the frame as if it were progressive and you see line split when viewed. yada yada said several times.

So you would not use OFF with interlace source in Handbrake right?

Or are you on a political campaign to get Handbrake to support interlace h.264 output?

When you hit a road block, you use the next best route which is deinterlace or decomb.

Why are you stretching this out? What encoding result are you getting on your player?

[nymph4444]

I get it now you say
Handbrake gets interlaced frames from the MPEG decoder and hands those interlaced frames to x264. It just tells x264 the frames are progressive.

I think I understand it all now
If I open an interlaced video in Handbrake I can set all the Deinterlace options my self of how I want it to make it prograsive.

Or I can set Deinterlace to OFF but even if I set it to off the Handbrake decoder will still tell H246 is is prograsive.

Did I understand it now?

[jagabo]

I get it now you say
Handbrake gets interlaced frames from the MPEG decoder and hands those interlaced frames to x264. It just tells x264 the frames are progressive.

I think I understand it all now
If I open an interlaced video in Handbrake I can set all the Deinterlace options my self of how I want it to make it prograsive.

Or I can set Deinterlace to OFF but even if I set it to off the Handbrake decoder will still tell H246 is is prograsive.

Did I understand it now?

Yes. And since the interlaced frames are compressed by x264 in progressive mode players will not play the video correctly.

[edDV]

Yes, so try Decomb or Deinterlace for "Land of the Lost". Try the result on your player.

I've watched 3 episodes of "Buck Rogers" on Netflix. It looks all classic film technique to me. So the filter settings and encoding will be different.

[nymph4444]

Ok now that I understand you I just have a fue things.

1. If Handbrake takes the Interlaced video and tells H246 it is prograsive and it encodes it as prograsive why would this make it not play right?

And 2.
I am right am I not that Handbrake is made to take Interlaced videos and make them Prograsive?

[edDV]

Ok now that I understand you I just have a fue things.

1. If Handbrake takes the Interlaced video and tells H246 it is prograsive and it encodes it as prograsive why would this make it not play right?

And 2.
I am right am I not that Handbrake is made to take Interlaced videos and make them Prograsive?

2 has been answered a dozen times. Handbrake was originally intended as a simplified GUI targeted to popular media players, originally Apple products. Then came other media players and cell phones... then, iPhone and iPod.

Many of these player devices lack any interlace support. So the safe route for the Handbrake team was to focus on a few device targets and narrow the codecs supportted.

In defense of the Handbrake team, they were one of the few that went for multi OS support including Apple Mac OSX, Windows, Umbuntu and other Linux. This was smart because the vast majority of iPhone and iPad users are not on Apple Mac OSX.

With those priorities, supporting interlace for optimal to HDTV display became a future maybe.

[edDV]

Ok now that I understand you I just have a fue things.

1. If Handbrake takes the Interlaced video and tells H246 it is prograsive and it encodes it as prograsive why would this make it not play right?

See the violin player picture. That is how OFF would play on any player including an HDTV.

[jagabo]

In defense of Handbrake, they were one of the few that went for multi OS support. Apple OSX, Windows, Umbuntu and other Linux. This was smart because the vast majority of iPhone and iPad users are not on Apple Mac OSX.

With those priorities, supporting interlace for optimal to HDTV display became a future maybe.

All they have to do is add a switch for interlaced video. --tff or --bff for x264. That's probably 5 minutes work for someone who knows the program.

[edDV]

In defense of Handbrake, they were one of the few that went for multi OS support. Apple OSX, Windows, Umbuntu and other Linux. This was smart because the vast majority of iPhone and iPad users are not on Apple Mac OSX.

With those priorities, supporting interlace for optimal to HDTV display became a future maybe.

All they have to do is add a switch for interlaced video. --tff or --bff for x264. That's probably 5 minutes work for someone who knows the program.

But they were probably waiting for Steve Jobs' permission

Don't want to risk political incorectness.

[nymph4444]

OK if all the devices that Handbrakes videos are ment for can not play Interlaced Videos thats ok because Handbrake takes Interlaced Videos and tell H246 it is Prograsive.

And H246 encodes it as Prograsive so why would it not play right ?
If the devices want prograsive then it sould be OK????

[edDV]

OK if all the devices that Handbrakes videos are ment for can not play Interlaced Videos thats ok because Handbrake takes Interlaced Videos and tell H246 it is Prograsive.

And H246 encodes it as Prograsive so why would it not play right ?
If the devices want prograsive then it sould be OK????

We have no experience with your player. It would need testing.

Most media players expect progressive. Some will take interlace in but do the same simple weave, or may attempt a deinterlace. Very few will inverse telecine.

SD interlace NTSC TV sets didn't need a video processor. They just displayed the field sequence directly.

Progressive displays need processing depending on source format.

[nymph4444]

OK I am sorry my Match Speed Trio 5000 did not play Handbrakes videos in a Dable screen with one video playing at the Top of the screen and the same video playing at the Bottom of the screen.

My Player and my VLC both play Handbrakes videos ok.
When I opened my Interlaced videos in a program called Format Factory and I converted it to MP4 H246 I would set Prograsive to YES.

The video it would output would play that way in split screen.
But if I set Prograsive to NO the video it outputed would play ok.?

Sorry for the misunderstanding on that part.
But I do have one thing I don't understand.

You say Handbrake takes Interlaced video and tells H246 it is Prograsive and then the H246 ecodes it as Prograsive.

If I am right then the H246 just encodes it as Prograsive it does not make it Prograsive.

Handbrakes coders are doing this part befor it gets to the H246.
Am I right

[edDV]

...
But I do have one thing I don't understand.

You say Handbrake takes Interlaced video and tells H246 it is Prograsive and then the H246 ecodes it as Prograsive.

If I am right then the H246 just encodes it as Prograsive it does not make it Prograsive.

Using Handbrake in OFF mode, interlace fields are identified as progressive. After h.264 encoding, the media player sees the file's progressive flag and plays as progressive. The resulting display would look like the violin player picture during motion.

Using Handbrake in Deinterlace mode, the interlace video is deinterlaced before being passed to the encoder as progressive. After h.264 encoding, the media player sees the file's progressive flag and plays as progressive. Most would say the resulting playback display looks better. Others would criticize the quality of the deinterlace.

Handbrakes coders are doing this part befor it gets to the H246.
Am I right

No Handbrake follows your menu selection. You choose OFF, Deinterlace , Decomb or Detelecine and handbrake does what you asked. Just like a manual transmission car. If you select first gear, the car will drive in first gear.

The result of the mode you choose is sent to the x264 encoder flagged as progressive.