interlace help

[jagabo]

1. If Teleicen is when they take 24 fps and make it 30 fps then when you Detelecine a video you are reversing it Right?
You are taking the 30 fps and making it 24 fps?

Yes.

2. De Interlace Cobine is when the take two interlaced fields and make one image that will stay on screen am I right I whent on Wikapedia?

Yes.

3. If I open Land Of The Lost TV show or Buck Rogers TV show or any movie in mediainfo it say frame rate 29.97 so am I right it has some kind of Teleicen doen to it?

Probably. As was noted, most program only read the first MPEG header in a file an report what that header says. A VOB or MPG file can change back and forth from interlaced to progressive-with-pulldown-flags at any time.

[edDV]

Note - While I was reading the Handbrake Forum and writing the response below, I didn't see your messages above. Let me quick comment that interlace and telecine are separate issues and we should discuss them separately.

"Land of the Lost" was mostly shot with NTSC interlace video cameras. I'm separating the step frame animations for now as a separate issue. Interlace video can be kept interlace or filtered with deinterlace or decomb filters.

"Buck Rogers" was mostly or all 24 fps film source. Telecine only applies to 24p source. Only 24p source can be soft telecined to DVD. So let's discuss these shows separately. The technology and encoding strategy is different.


Original post...

I read your 6 threads in the Handbrake forum. They offered similar advice that interlace source like "Land of the Lost" is best encoded interlace to preserve best quality. But as I discovered, Handbrake does not offer an option for h.264 interlace output, so next best for quality is deinterlace, followed by decomb.

If instead you want an h.264 interlace encode for "Land of the Lost", I suggested Sony Vegas as an option which comes with two h.264 interlace encoders. I haven't yet discovered an easy to use free GUI for x264 that supports interlace output.

If you don't care so much about quality, decomb offers a faster processing time compared to deinterlace. When you use deinterlace, you turn decomb and detelecine to off. When you use decomb, you turn deinterlace and detelecine off.

Now, you seem most confused about "weave" as a method to convert two separate fields into a progressive frame or as Smithcraft described it "'flatten' out the two fields into a progressive frame ". So let's work on that a bit, or drop it if you desire. Weave happens when all Handbrake filters are turned off.

Let me try to review.

Interlace video is a sequence of fields odd-even, odd-even, odd-even. For interlace video, a frame is defined as an odd-even pair but an interlace frame does not exist at a single point in time because odd lines and even lines are sampled (scanned) 1/60th second apart in time.

A progressive display like your media player, a computer monitor or an LCD TV can't deal with odd and even fields. They require odd and even lines be combined into a 480 line (progressive) frame so it can be written to the display all at one time.

The process of reading 240 odd lines + 240 even lines into a flat 480 line picture is called a "weave" or "flattening".

It would be nice if it was that easy but the result is what you see for the violin player above. The odd lines were sampled by the camera at one point in time, then the even lines were sampled 1/60th (1/59.94th actually) second later. As you can see there can be significant movement in 1/60th sec causing the odd and even lines to move relative to each other. This displacement is often called an interlace artifact.

Deinterlace and decomb are methods to reduce the artifacts caused by a simple weave.

I'll stop here and let you catch up. Note that nothing in this post has anything to do with telecine. "Land of the Lost" is mostly a straight TV camera shoot so ignore telecine for this discussion.


Correction - Above I said "causing the odd and even lines to move relative to each other". The lines didn't move, the violin player moved in the 1/60th second resulting in the apparent line split.

[edDV]

3.
If I open Land Of The Lost TV show or Buck Rogers TV show or any movie in mediainfo it say frame rate 29.97 so am I right it has some kind of Teleicen doen to it?
Because everything is and says 29.97 fps so this means it is ready for TV screens?

When we examine all of the lines in media info we are looking for two types of encoding

1 Interlace, 29.97fps - this can be straight video or hard telecine. Impossible to tell the difference unless you examine the individual frames in the VOB. Some programs switch back and forth from interlace to hard telecine on the fly.

2 Progressive (soft telecine) stored 23.976 fps but played at various frame rates.

We can be 100% sure that "Land of the Lost" is encoded interlace. "Buck Rogers could be either.

[nymph4444]

Ok in an interlace the first Field starts to fade then the next Field is drawn.
But in de interlace combin the 2. Fields are shown togather you say.
But if every Field will be ever so diferant then wont it look like a dable exposed image?

And 2.
I you do a Deteleicen you revers and make 30 fps 24 fps why?
If you are converting to say avi or mp4 you still need 29.97 fps or 30 fps to watch it smothly?

And 3.
I am in no way trying to piss anyone off
But can you try in a diferant way to explane De Inerlace weave again?

I know you say they take the Od Field and Even Field and weave them and the image you showed me looked like a dable image.
But why do they say it will encode as prograsive and out put interlace or something like this?

[jagabo]

Ok in an interlace the first Field starts to fade then the next Field is drawn.
But in de interlace combin the 2. Fields are shown togather you say.
But if every Field will be ever so diferant then wont it look like a dable exposed image?

Yes, that's why you aren't supposed to view the entire frame at once. You're supposed to see one field, then the other field 1/60th second later.

And 2.
I you do a Deteleicen you revers and make 30 fps 24 fps why?

To restore the original 24 fps progressive film frames. That gives you better compression (progressive frames compress better than interlaced frames, and 24 fps takes less bitrate than 30 fps) and then you don't have to worry about how good your deinterlacer when you view the video on a progressive display.

If you are converting to say avi or mp4 you still need 29.97 fps or 30 fps to watch it smothly?

No.

And 3.
I am in no way trying to piss anyone off
But can you try in a diferant way to explane De Inerlace weave again?

I know you say they take the Od Field and Even Field and weave them and the image you showed me looked like a dable image.

Yes.

But why do they say it will encode as prograsive and out put interlace or something like this?

Handbrake doesn't have the option to tell x264 that the incoming frames are interlaced. So x264 encodes them as if they are progressive. Then upon playback the h.264 decoder tells the player the frames are progressive because that's the way they were encoded. Then the player doesn't display the two fields separately, it shows the full frame.

[edDV]

OK we need to back off a bit and ask this basic set of questions to you Nymph4444.

1. You have collection of MPeg2 VOBs, or a VIDEO-TS folder containing VOBs from a DVD that you own.

2. You bought a progressive media player*.

3. You attempted to play the VOBs and you said they played fine on your media player.

So, why aren't you happy playing VOBs from a Video-TS folder?

You said you wanted an AVC (h.264) file encoded at 500 Kbps vs the DVD which is around ~4500 Kbps average. Why is this important to you? Please answer. It isn't a trick question.; Just trying to understand your goal.


* you also wrote you have a standard interlace NTSC TV and an undefined video projector. Plus you obviously have a computer.

[edDV]

Separate from above, you have also asked questions about the way interlace and progressive scan works. If you really want to get it, keep asking. Most don't get it or are operating from false assumptions.

But display and video encoding, although related, are separate subjects.

[nymph4444]

Ok so k\now I know de interlace combine will take the two fields and show both togather at the same time and that is why it looks like a dable image.

And if de interlace weave will weave the two fields togather and it will look like a dable image as well what is the diferance between de interlace combine and de interlace weave??

And about de interlace weave I think I am getting you?
Handbrake can't take in any interlaced videi so it my give it some kind of de interlace first this is why you say even de interlace OFF is still de interlace weave.

So it gives it some sort of de interlace then it can ecode it as prograsive am I right?

And one thing.
If de interlace combine will make it look like a dable image then why make it? Why would anyone use it what is it used for?

[jagabo]

Ok so k\now I know de interlace combine will take the two fields and show both togather at the same time and that is why it looks like a dable image.

And if de interlace weave will weave the two fields togather and it will look like a dable image as well what is the diferance between de interlace combine and de interlace weave??

Weave and combine are the same thing. Just two different names.

And about de interlace weave I think I am getting you?
Handbrake can't take in any interlaced videi so it my give it some kind of de interlace first this is why you say even de interlace OFF is still de interlace weave.

So it gives it some sort of de interlace then it can ecode it as prograsive am I right?

Once again, every MPEG decoder I know of outputs fields of woven frames. Handbrake gets those frames from the MPEG decoder. If you tell Handbrake not to deinterlace or decomb it passes those frames to x264 without telling the h.264 encoder the frames are interlaced. So x264 encodes them as if they are progressive. Then at playback the player is told the frames are progressive because x264 was told they were progressive. So the player plays them that way.

And one thing.
If de interlace combine will make it look like a dable image then why make it? Why would anyone use it what is it used for?

Fields woven into frames are standard for all digital video. I've never seen any format that saves fields separately. It's compact and when there is no motion the two fields look a progressive frame.

[nymph4444]

I am soory I sould have asked it like this?

Handbrake is used for taking Interlaced Video and converting it to other formats.
It has all the Deinterlace options and everything to help with making it Prograsive.

This is why I did not understand you when you told me that Handbrake can't handle interlace video coming in?

[Smithcraft]

Who said that Handbrake can't handle interlaced video. I haven't seen anyone say that here or at the Handbrake forums.

SC

[Gavino]

Once again, every MPEG decoder I know of outputs fields of woven frames.
...
Fields woven into frames are standard for all digital video. I've never seen any format that saves fields separately.

Exactly.
That's why I think edDV is confusing the OP by talking about 'weave' as a deinterlace method.

For example, when deinterlace is OFF, Handbrake doesn't do a 'weave deinterlace', it just does nothing, leaving the fields as it receives them from the decoder, ie already woven into frames.

[jagabo]

Who said that Handbrake can't handle interlaced video. I haven't seen anyone say that here or at the Handbrake forums.

Where's the switch for telling x264 to encode interlaced?

[jagabo]

I think edDV is confusing the OP by talking about 'weave' as a deinterlace method.

I've never liked that characterization either. But edDV isn't the only one who does it.

[nymph4444]

OK I am reading the other posts and someone just Posted that if you set De Interlace to OFF Handbrake will do no De Interlace it wont do a weave ether?

And 2.
Do you mean if I encode with H 246 that encoder will not encode interlace?

[jagabo]

OK I am reading the other posts and someone just Posted that if you set De Interlace to OFF Handbrake will do no De Interlace it wont do a weave ether?

Handbrake doesn't do the weave -- the MPEG decoder does. Every MPEG decoder I've ever seen outputs interlaced video as woven frames. The process of converting your DVD VOB files includes first decompressing the MPEG 2 video to uncompressed video frames. Then those frames are handed to x264 to be compressed. Handbrake gets interlaced (woven) frames from the MPEG 2 decoder but doesn't tell x264 the frames are interlaced. So x264 doesn't flag the video as interlaced and they don't play back properly. You've already seen that in your own experiments.

And 2.
Do you mean if I encode with H 246 that encoder will not encode interlace?

It won't encode an interlaced source with flags indicating it's interlaced. So the player won't know the video is interlaced. x264 has the ability to encode interlaced frames and flag them as interlaced. But Handbrake doesn't tell it the frames are interlaced.

[edDV]

I think edDV is confusing the OP by talking about 'weave' as a deinterlace method.

I've never liked that characterization either. But edDV isn't the only one who does it.

I was speaking more in terms of the end result rather than where the weave happens - in the decoder, Handbrake or x264. Many codec GUIs also list weave under "deinterlace" options even though it means essentially "do nothing".

So to clarify, I agree with Jagabo that the MPeg decode results in fields woven into a frame and that Handbrake in filter OFF mode is telling x264 to consider that frame to be progressive. In "Deinterlace" or "Decomb" filter modes, it also reports the result as progressive.

x264 is capable of encoding interlace source to interlace h.264 but Handbrake does not currently support that mode.

I hope I didn't confuse things further.

[edDV]

And about de interlace weave I think I am getting you?
Handbrake can't take in any interlaced videi so it my give it some kind of de interlace first this is why you say even de interlace OFF is still de interlace weave.

So it gives it some sort of de interlace then it can ecode it as prograsive am I right?

So ignore the term "deinterlace weave". Your options for interlace source are OFF (weave), Deinterlace or Decomb.

And one thing.
If de interlace combine will make it look like a dable image then why make it? Why would anyone use it what is it used for?

We suggeted you use Deinterlace or Decomb for "Land of the Lost".

OFF would be used by those who want the fastest h.264 encode and don't care about picture quality. They only want the file smaller. Decomb and Deinterlace add to processing time.

I use this mode when batch encoding financial stories. I just want the files small and don't care about line splits during motion.

[nymph4444]

OK can I use Handbrake to output as avi?

And will the avi let me encode as interlace and keep my interlace?

[edDV]

OK can I use Handbrake to output as avi?

And will the avi let me encode as interlace and keep my interlace?

No and no in Handbrake.


For your player, I'd first try h.264 in MP4 container (the default). It isn't clear your media player supports MKV so you would have to test that.

If none of those work, Handbrake also offers an option for MPeg-4 (FFmpeg codec).

[Smithcraft]

OK can I use Handbrake to output as avi?

No.

SC

[Smithcraft]

I am soory I sould have asked it like this?

Handbrake is used for taking Interlaced Video and converting it to other formats.
It has all the Deinterlace options and everything to help with making it Prograsive.

This is why I did not understand you when you told me that Handbrake can't handle interlace video coming in?

Who said that Handbrake can't handle interlaced video. I haven't seen anyone say that here or at the Handbrake forums.

Where's the switch for telling x264 to encode interlaced?

Nymph4444 said that someone said that Handbrake can't handle interlace video coming in. My question was who said that? Not how it handles interlaced files.

SC

[nymph4444]

But you told me just all mpeg encoders wont encode as interlace.
avi is not an mpeg codec?

And 2.
Everything in Handbrake is for taking videos and I would gess interlaced videos beacuse everything is here to De Interlace it so it will make it prograsive.
So is all codecs just for encoding prograsive?

[Smithcraft]

Where did I tell you that?

Avi, mov, mpg, mp4, and mkv are containers. They are like a suitcase. Suitcases can hold different things in different manners. Some suitcases are able to do more than others. Avi, and mov containers are fairly limited.

Handbrake does not output avi containers.

SC

[edDV]

And 2.
Everything in Handbrake is for taking videos and I would gess interlaced videos beacuse everything is here to De Interlace it so it will make it prograsive.
So is all codecs just for encoding prograsive?

nymph4444,

I suggested you learn Handbrake first because the user interface is fairly simple and well documented. Also, Handbrake will generate h.264 files playable on your media player from DVD VOBs of three types.

1. interlace
2. hard telecine or
3. progressive (soft telecine)

We are still stuck on number 1. You were to encode a sample show from the "Land of the Lost" DVD using either Decomb or Deinterlace and play it on your media player. I suggested you experiment with Decomb and Deinterlace using constant quality 20 or 500 kbps bit rate.

Please report your progress.

Next we can proceed to the "Buck Rogers" DVD. First step there is to determine whether the DVD is hard or soft telecined.

[nymph4444]

What I ment is you told me
Handbrake doesn't do the weave -- the MPEG decoder does. Every MPEG decoder I've ever seen outputs interlaced video as woven frames.

So I am sorry if I miss understood you.
When you say every mpeg decoder outputs as woven.
Then this meens every mpeg output as prograsive?

[jagabo]

What I ment is you told me
Handbrake doesn't do the weave -- the MPEG decoder does. Every MPEG decoder I've ever seen outputs interlaced video as woven frames.

So I am sorry if I miss understood you.
When you say every mpeg decoder outputs as woven.
Then this meens every mpeg output as prograsive?

If the two fields are from the same picture the frame is progressive. If the two fields are from different pictures the frame is interlaced.

This is further complicated by the fact that the uncompressed frame my be YUV 4:2:0 format, YV12. But I don't want to get into that here. It will just confuse you.

[nymph4444]

I think I get you

If both fields are displayed at the same time this is a prograsive Frame.

And if both fields have to be interlaced like we talked about above this is Interlaced Frame.

I do get this so I think it is the way I am asking things so I am going to put it another way.

Handbrake has all these diferant settings for De Interlacing and Decomb and you can do a lot for De Interlace.
So when you do any kind of De Interlace you are making it Prograsive?
Am I right on this?

So this tells me Handbrake is for taking interlaced video and making it prograsive?
Am I right on this?

[edDV]

What I ment is you told me
Handbrake doesn't do the weave -- the MPEG decoder does. Every MPEG decoder I've ever seen outputs interlaced video as woven frames.

So I am sorry if I miss understood you.
When you say every mpeg decoder outputs as woven.
Then this meens every mpeg output as prograsive?

Handbrake is a graphical user interface over several modular applications including the MPeg2 decoder, deinterlacer and x264 codec being used for "Land of the lost". The MPeg2 decoder decodes the VOB to uncompressed fields, weaves them into progressive frames and passes them to the next module. The descriptive header data can indicate to the next module whether the fields of the frame should be considered interlace or progressive. In Handbrake the user interface overrides the header from the user interface.

When the user sets filters to OFF, Handbrake identifies the frame as progressive. In Deinterlace, Decomb or Detelecine mode, the filters are instructed to assume the input fields are interlace. These three filters will convert interlace to progressive using different methods. Handbrake always passes progressive frames to the x264 encoder.

[nymph4444]

I think I get you a little bit.
Handbrake always passes video as prograsive.

And all the De Interlace filters I can set are to make it prograsive so it can pass it.
But even if I set De Interlace to OFF it still weaves the fields to a prograssive because it has to pass Prograsive.

just tell me if I got this?