interlace help

[edDV]

OK now one thing about Prograsive CRT screens?

They draw the image

Top Field
Bottom Field
Top Field
Bottom Field

And keep going like this all the way down the screen.

Now when you draw the image like this you are mixing some of the Od Field with some of the Even Field at the same time.

With interlace the Top Field starts to fade away then the Bottom Field is drawn.

But Prograsive the two Fields are mixed togather all the way down the screen.
Why does it not look like a Dabble Image?

No progressive monitors don't work that way.

A progressive TV needs to convert all input formats to 59.94 progressive frames per second (some TV sets do 119.88 frames per secon or more). The various inputs get converted this way.

Interlace 29.97 fps -- Gets deinterlaced
Telecine 29.97 fps -- Gets inverse telecined 23.976 fps then frame repeated to 59.94 fps
Progressive 59.94 fps -- No conversion necessary

A progressive CRT will scan the screen top to bottom 59.94 times per second. LCD or Plasma displays refresh the screen 59.94 times per second or more.


PS: Some recent HDTV sets accept HDMI video from Blu-Ray players at 23.976 or 24 fps rate. In that case the input frames are repeated 2x 3x to a 59.94 rate or 5x to 119.88 rate. Also, all ATSC tuners are required to accept 480p, 720p or 1080p at a 23.976 fps rate.

[edDV]

I just read you reply to me about if I set de interlace to OFF and you told me it will then do a weave deinterlace

What is this?

A weave is the most basic way to convert interlace fields to progressive frames. The odd and even fields are written to a progressive raster together. Since the fields were shot 1/60 th second apart in time, any motion will show split lines.

Telecine video will show two split field frames out of every 5 video frames.

[nymph4444]

Yes and it looks ok.

But am I right when I opened Buck Rogers in mediainfo it says frame rate 29.97
So my gess is they already Telecene it am I right?

Because if they did not it would say frame rate 24 right??

And I just got vertaulDub and it wont open my VOB files.
But will this program let me convert with out de interlace?

[jagabo]

But am I right when I opened Buck Rogers in mediainfo it says frame rate 29.97
So my gess is they already Telecene it am I right?

Because if they did not it would say frame rate 24 right??

No:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/334839-interlace-help?p=2084758&viewfull=1#post2084758

And I just got vertaulDub and it wont open my VOB files.

Get the MPEG 2 source plugin for VirtualDub.
http://home.comcast.net/~fcchandler/index.html

But will this program let me convert with out de interlace?

Yes, but you'll have to learn a lot to use it.

[edDV]

Yes and it looks ok.

But am I right when I opened Buck Rogers in mediainfo it says frame rate 29.97
So my gess is they already Telecene it am I right?

Because if they did not it would say frame rate 24 right??

And I just got vertaulDub and it wont open my VOB files.
But will this program let me convert with out de interlace?

First post all the info from mediainfo as I requested.

Hard telecine looks just like normal interlace in the specs. You must do the 5 frame player advance as described above to determine if it is hard telecine (i.e. two split frames out of five during motion)

Virtualdub needs an MPeg2 codec. Easier to use VLC as I described above with the "Frame by Frame" button enabled.

[edDV]

Because if they did not it would say frame rate 24 right??

Hard telecine would show 29.97 fps.

Soft telecine would normally show 23.976 fps (or something near) and "progressive".

Some formats report odd variations. That is why you need to step through a motion sample to finish the evaluation. Still for MPeg2 there are many program examples where there is a shift from straight interlace to telecine and back. This is common with these budget sci-fi shows.

"Land of the Lost" is an example of a show mostly done with video cameras but with stop frame film effects.

"Stargate" or "TNG" are shows shot mostly on film but use video effects.

Two sides of the same coin. This why encoding interlace is the better option because the HDTV processors are adept at switching from deinterlace to inverse telecine on the fly.

[jagabo]

Because if they did not it would say frame rate 24 right??

Hard telecine would show 29.97 fps.

Soft telecine would normally show 23.976 fps (or something near) and "progressive".

The version of MediaInfo I have (0.7.41) doesn't show 23.976 fps and progressive with soft telecined MPEG 2. It shows 29.97 fps and doesn't say progressive or interlaced or report field order. GSpot will show 23.976 pics/sec, 29.97 frames/sec, 59.94 fields/sec and interlaced. And they only report what the first MPEG header says. MPG and VOB files can switch back and forth between hard and soft telecine at any time.

[edDV]

Because if they did not it would say frame rate 24 right??

Hard telecine would show 29.97 fps.

Soft telecine would normally show 23.976 fps (or something near) and "progressive".

The version of MediaInfo I have (0.7.41) doesn't show 23.976 fps and progressive with soft telecined MPEG 2. It shows 29.97 fps and doesn't say progressive or interlaced or report field order. GSpot will show 23.976 pics/sec, 29.97 frames/sec, 59.94 fields/sec and interlaced. And they only report what the first MPEG header says. MPG and VOB files can switch back and forth between hard and soft telecine at any time.

You are right. I should have said "ideally". The header information may not reflect the true format and for mixed format sci-fi it doesn't matter.

[edDV]

Here is what mediainfo (v 0.7.44) reports for a pure film progressive DVD VOB

General
Complete name : M:\VIDEO_TS\VTS_02_2.VOB
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 1 024 MiB
Duration : 25mn 48s
Overall bit rate : 5 547 Kbps

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 25mn 48s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 4 605 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 9 800 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 23.976 fps <<<<<<<<
Standard : Component
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive <<<<<<<<
Scan order : 2:3 Pulldown <<<<<<<
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.556
Stream size : 850 MiB (83%)

[jagabo]

They must have fixed it recently. Here's what 0.7.41 says:

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 5ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 4 005 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 8 000 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.387
Stream size : 2.44 KiB (0%)

I updated to 0.7.44 and it shows the same thing with the VOB file I was testing! So I checked another VOB file and it said that one was 23.976 fps and progressive. The first file was also 23.976 fps and progressive so this is a case where the first MPEG header did not properly describe the full video. In short, you can't trust what MediaInfo says about a VOB or MPG file.

[nymph4444]

I need to know some things?

1.
When you say mediainfo say my Buck Rogers is frame rate 29.97 you say they may be 23 with pulldown Flags.
But to take 23 up to 29.97 is pulling it up not down am I right or am I missing something?

2.
Remeber you told me Buck Rogers may have been shot with Film so it may be 24 fps so if mediainfo says frame rate 29.97 to me that says they did do some kind of Telecen.
Because Telecen is when they ad framnes or show frames longer am I not getting you on this?

3.
Remember you told me if I set De Interlace to OFF it will do a De Interlace weave.
And there may not be a way to turn De Interlace OFF .
I whent to Handbrake forum and asked about the De Interlace settings.
I told them if Slow will do a minamum de interlace and Slowest does another typ then if I set it to OFF will it do a de interlace weave?

They told me What made you think that when you set de interlace to OFF it is OFF.
Then they Blocked me from asking a new thread.

So do you know for sure if when I set it to OFF it will do a de interlace weave?
I thought because it is there website they may know but they may be playing with me?

[edDV]

All very good questions. I will have to answer later. Busy at the moment.

Send us the full mediainfo report on Buck Rogers. I might order a copy from Netflix.

[jagabo]

1. When you say mediainfo say my Buck Rogers is frame rate 29.97 you say they may be 23 with pulldown Flags.
But to take 23 up to 29.97 is pulling it up not down am I right or am I missing something?

The process is called "pulldown".

2. Remeber you told me Buck Rogers may have been shot with Film so it may be 24 fps so if mediainfo says frame rate 29.97 to me that says they did do some kind of Telecen.
Because Telecen is when they ad framnes or show frames longer am I not getting you on this?

All film has to be telecined to be show on NTSC TV. The question is whether it is hard telecined of soft telecined or a combination of the two.

3. Remember you told me if I set De Interlace to OFF it will do a De Interlace weave.
And there may not be a way to turn De Interlace OFF .
I whent to Handbrake forum and asked about the De Interlace settings.
I told them if Slow will do a minamum de interlace and Slowest does another typ then if I set it to OFF will it do a de interlace weave?

They told me What made you think that when you set de interlace to OFF it is OFF.
Then they Blocked me from asking a new thread.

So do you know for sure if when I set it to OFF it will do a de interlace weave?
I thought because it is there website they may know but they may be playing with me?

Every MPEG 2 decoder I know of outputs interlaced video as woven frames. It then becomes the downstream software's responsibility to handle the frames correctly.

[nymph4444]

I whent into mediainfo and this is it for Buck Rogers.

Size 1.80 GiB
Container - mpeg PS
1. video stream - mpeg video
Audio - AC - 3
Video stream 720x48 4:3
29.97 fps NTSC mpeg
Audio - 192 kbps 48 kHz 2. CH.

I whent into Tree Vieu and I still see nothing about interlace or prograsive.

What about the things I asked????

[edDV]

I need to know some things?
1. When you say mediainfo say my Buck Rogers is frame rate 29.97 you say they may be 23 with pulldown Flags.
But to take 23 up to 29.97 is pulling it up not down am I right or am I missing something?

Missing something. First the General and Video mediainfo specs and version number.

Second if it shows 29.97 fps, you need to check for telecine with a frame step viewer.

[jagabo]

No matter what MediaInfo shows you need check the video. DgIndex is the best tool to use. It will parse the entire file and report what percentage of the video is progressive frames (the remaining are interlaced or hard telecined). You can then use the index file it creates, opened via an AviSynth script with VirtualDub, to view the video frames.

A simpler, but less reliable method, is to open the VOB or MPG file with VirtualDubMod. Check the frame rate (23.976 or 29.97) and scan through the video looking for comb artifacts.

[nymph4444]

I have these files and folders in VirtualDub folder and I don't know if I need them.

folder aviproxy
folder plugins
file auxsetup.exe
file copying
file vdicmdrv.dll
file vdremote.dll
file vdsvrink.dll
file vdub.exe
file virtualdub.chm

Do I have to keep all these in one folder or can I get rid of some?

[jagabo]

Leave the files where they are.

[edDV]

I whent into mediainfo and this is it for Buck Rogers.

Size 1.80 GiB
Container - mpeg PS
1. video stream - mpeg video
Audio - AC - 3
Video stream 720x48 4:3
29.97 fps NTSC mpeg
Audio - 192 kbps 48 kHz 2. CH.

I whent into Tree Vieu and I still see nothing about interlace or prograsive.

What about the things I asked????

I asked for all the General and Video info like my postings above. We aren't talking about audio.

I need to know some things?
1.
When you say mediainfo say my Buck Rogers is frame rate 29.97 you say they may be 23 with pulldown Flags.
But to take 23 up to 29.97 is pulling it up not down am I right or am I missing something?

Read what I said above about "Soft Telecine" and how to use video player frame steps to distinguish hard vs soft telecine. Hard telecine is 29.97 fps and will have the same specs as simple interlace.

[edDV]

2.
Remeber you told me Buck Rogers may have been shot with Film so it may be 24 fps so if mediainfo says frame rate 29.97 to me that says they did do some kind of Telecen.
Because Telecen is when they ad framnes or show frames longer am I not getting you on this?

We know "Buck Rogers" was shot on film. The pilot was even distributed to Cinemas. The question is how they edited the prime time TV show and made the DVD. They had two choices:

Film style editing to a 24p master - This would require all the effects to be done film optical style like was done for the early Star Wars films. If the edit master is 24p they can do a progressive (soft telecine) DVD with frames stored at 23.976 rate. They can also easily release a PAL DVD for the rest of the world. Down side of this alternative is the high cost of optical effects. At that time it was much more expensive to produce a show like this at 24p but the payoff was easy international distribution to PAL broadcast and DVD and an easier future transition to high definition.

Edit as telecine NTSC - This allows use of cheaper standard def video effects. DVD release would be mixed telecine and standard interlace 29.97 fps. Downside is a separate edit is required for PAL or the PAL release could be done with electronic standards conversion. It also requires any future high def version to be edited from scratch from a fresh film transfer. This is the fate of series like "Star Trek - The Next Generation".

They would have used the first option if their major goal was international broadcast. TV series make most of their money in international distribution and syndication. "Buck Rogers" made it into USA prime time, but due to the high cost of special effects, it is more likely they went the telecine route.

The only way to know for sure is to step frame through the VOB looking for mixed frames in telecine pattern.


PS: Today it would be cost effective to digital edit a show like this at 1920x1080 24p. The cameras could be film or HD video.

[edDV]

3.
Remember you told me if I set De Interlace to OFF it will do a De Interlace weave.
And there may not be a way to turn De Interlace OFF .
I whent to Handbrake forum and asked about the De Interlace settings.
I told them if Slow will do a minamum de interlace and Slowest does another typ then if I set it to OFF will it do a de interlace weave?

They told me What made you think that when you set de interlace to OFF it is OFF.
Then they Blocked me from asking a new thread.

So do you know for sure if when I set it to OFF it will do a de interlace weave?
I thought because it is there website they may know but they may be playing with me?

We have learned that when all filters are turned off in Handbrake, an interlace source will receive a simple weave. A weave just means the odd and even fields are written to a progressive frame without further processing. Many encoders list weave as one of the "deinterlace" options. Handbrake just defaults to a weave when all other filters are turned off.

Do you have a link to your Handbrake forum discussion?

[edDV]

I checked at Netflix, Buck Rogers is on the instant play list but the DVD isn't available.

I watched the first episode. Looks like all film effects to me.

[nymph4444]

1.
I think I get you a little bit when you say setting de interlace to OFF will take the Od and Even Fields and written to a progressive frame.
Now I know what prograsive is and if they write it to prograsive frame is this making it prograsive then?
Or is this not what you meen?

And 2.
When I did read Telecene I did read that Hard is were they take real Frames and make copies and ad them were it needs to be. The player does this I meen.
And they say Soft is were they just ad Flags or Code to tell it how long to show a Frame at diferant places.

Is this Right before I re read again?

And sould I stay away from VertualDub?

[Gavino]

Do you have a link to your Handbrake forum discussion?

https://forum.handbrake.fr/search.php?author=robertbiferi&sr=topics&submit=Search

[nymph4444]

Here is the link to the topic
https://forum.handbrake.fr/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21275

[edDV]

Weave just writes odd lines from field 1 and even lines from field 2. For interlace source the result is line split during motion. Not what you want.



For "Land of the Lost" try Deinterlace Slow

For "Buck Rogers" try Detelecine default.

[nymph4444]

OK I did more reading about telecine and I know it is when they make 24 fps 30 fps.

And soft Teleine is when they just use Code to tell the player how long to show a Frame.

Am I right on this?

And when I looked at the photo you put up for setting De Interlace to OFF will make it just do De Interlace weav.
And I see the line brake but I still don't understand what it is?

When you have De Interlace Weav you say it takes Od Lines and Even Lines and rights them to a Prograsive frame. But what is a prograsive Frame?
Do you mean it takes the Od Lines and Even Lines and puts them togather to make one frame?

[jagabo]

When you have De Interlace Weav you say it takes Od Lines and Even Lines and rights them to a Prograsive frame. But what is a prograsive Frame?
Do you mean it takes the Od Lines and Even Lines and puts them togather to make one frame?

An interlaced frame is a frame in which the two fields come from two different pictures. A progressive frame is a frame where both fields come from the same picture.

An interlaced frame represents two different points in time. A progressive frame represents one point in time.

The two fields in an interlaced frame are intended to be viewed separately. The two fields in a progressive frame are intended to be viewed at the same time.

[nymph4444]

Sorry I thing it will go faster if I just ask a fue things at a time?

1.
If Teleicen is when they take 24 fps and make it 30 fps then when you Detelecine a video you are reversing it Right?
You are taking the 30 fps and making it 24 fps?

2.
De Interlace Cobine is when the take two interlaced fields and make one image that will stay on screen am I right I whent on Wikapedia?

3.
If I open Land Of The Lost TV show or Buck Rogers TV show or any movie in mediainfo it say frame rate 29.97 so am I right it has some kind of Teleicen doen to it?
Because everything is and says 29.97 fps so this means it is ready for TV screens?

[nymph4444]

Let me go slow and you can tell me if I lost you?

I know now interlace is were the Od Field is one picture and the Even Field is another picture.
Eatch one I know is at two diferant times and every Field has a little bit of movement.

And they are interlaced I know this.

Now prograsive is you say the Od Field and Even Field are shown as one.
But if you put both Fields up togather they will look like a doble image?

So let me gess I got what you just to me rong.
Prograsive is when they take the two Fields that are interlaced and show them one at a time as seperate images??