Which of these two different ways of capturing analogue video is best?

[Marvolo]

Hi,

attached are two versions of the same video clip. Titled Seq1 and Seq2. Both captured under different setups (players, cable connections) and with different codecs / compression.

Whithout telling you how each version was captured, I'd ask you to decide merely by comparing them / analyzing them which one yields the better results, if any.

Seq2 is attached below, Seq1 exceeded the forum's file size for attachments, so I uploaded it here: https://we.tl/t-uc8wig1rZU

Thanks a lot in advance!

[Alwyn]

This'll be fun! A blind test. "You can't do that!"

[DB83]

Beats me why you needed to open a new topic rather than post the samples as a continuation of your other one which you recently brought back to life.

Nothing wrong with DV. The 'uncompressed' one (which is not AFAIK true uncompressed) adds nothing but excessive bitrate which is over 3 times what you would achieve with a straight forward lossless codec.

[Marvolo]

The 'uncompressed' one (which is not AFAIK true uncompressed) adds nothing but excessive bitrate which is over 3 times what you would achieve with a straight forward lossless codec.

I know. I was going to convert the uncompressed into a lossless format after capture. I thought that capturing uncompressed might be the least strain on my computer, avoiding dropped frames as best as possible. And after capture, I can then put the files into any NLE or converting software.

[poisondeathray]

For uncompressed video, you can zip /7zip etc.. archive them to fit the forum file limit restrictions .

What criteria are you using ? "better" in what way ?

Seq1 has drops so it would already be disqualified for me

[Marvolo]

Seq1 has drops so it would already be disqualified for me

Interesting... VirtualDub2 did not show or mention any dropped or inserted frames... How can there be drops?

[Sharc]

Seq1 has drops so it would already be disqualified for me

Interesting... VirtualDub2 did not show or mention any dropped or inserted frames... How can there be drops?

This has already been explained a couple of times before..... And when will people stop to ask for "best"? What is the "best" car? In which respect?

[Marvolo]

This has already been explained a couple of times before.....

Can you link to the answer in the other thread (which has grown so large that it's hard to find anything again)?

In which respect? I'm thinking of picture quality (Colors, noise, artefacts, etc). Does one look significantly better than the other.

As for the supposed drops:
I'm really at my wit's end here. I set up a new OS (Windows XP) and only installed the Blackmagic Intensity software for the least amount of usage and strain and used VirtualDub (as some of you have suggested) for capturing, not BM Media Express and apparently there are still dropped frames?

It seems there is no way to avoid them, then?

[Sharc]

Can you link to the answer in the other thread (which has grown so large that it's hard to find anything again)?

If you are lazy to search I am lazy. And there are more threads addressing that subject, not just yours.

In which respect? I'm thinking of picture quality. Does one look significantly better than the other.

Define picture quality. What criteria? It matters what looks good or better to you, to your eyes.

[Marvolo]

This has already been explained a couple of times before.....

Can you link to the answer in the other thread (which has grown so large that it's hard to find anything again)?
If you are lazy to serach I am lazy. And there are more threads addressing that subject, not just yours.

In which respect? I'm thinking of picture quality. Does one look significantly better than the other.

Define picture quality. What criteria? It matters what looks good to you, to your eyes.

Refresh the page. I edited my post.

[poisondeathray]

Seq1 has drops so it would already be disqualified for me

Interesting... VirtualDub2 did not show or mention any dropped or inserted frames... How can there be drops?

I don't know, I'm just reporting what I see . A field drop near the beginning, I haven't looked farther on, there might be more

You can see this in vdub2, double rate deinterlace with yadif or bob - so it's a essentially a resized preview of fields. The frame number will correspond to the field number. Look around frames 8-11 (corresponding to actual fields 8-11)



My opinion - for general use DV is perfectly fine for this type of analog source for most scenarios.

For archival scenario - I wouldn't use DV if possible. Compression artifacts, macroblocks. But it can be difficult technically to get a proper lossless capture as you are experiencing....

I'm thinking of picture quality (Colors, noise, artefacts, etc). Does one look significantly better than the other.

"better", and "colors" are subjective categories

A lossless capture will preserve the original noise and color (and if original had problems, preserve more of the original problems) . It's a better starting spot because you can adjust colors/noise/artifacts in post.

Artifacts are objective - DV adds ompression artifacts, macroblocks. If you have trouble seeing them, you can zoom in and apply a sharpen . It shouldn't make that much of a difference for general use - but for archival, restoration scenarios - it's less ideal. Many current and future workflows (machine learning) will enhance those macroblocks. There is literally less signal to noise for a DV version

[Marvolo]

Thank you, yes, I was experimenting with AI based enhancement techniques and thus thought I needed a capture as pristine and clear as possible. So I wasn't going to use the DV files for that purpose.

I'm still stumped as to why my setup produces dropped frames and the DV setup didn't... Neither is my system in any way close to be maxed out during capture nor does VDub notify me of any drops. Is there anything I can possibly do or just give up at that point?

[poisondeathray]

I'm still stumped as to why my setup produces dropped frames and the DV setup didn't... Neither is my system in any way close to be maxed out during capture nor does VDub notify me of any drops. Is there anything I can possibly do or just give up at that point?

No idea, I can't think of anything else that wasn't already suggested in your other thread

If you can, I would try some experiments on some friends/ neighbors computers .

[Sharc]

I'm still stumped as to why my setup produces dropped frames and the DV setup didn't... Neither is my system in any way close to be maxed out during capture nor does VDub notify me of any drops. Is there anything I can possibly do or just give up at that point?

Dropped frames have recently been discussed here, for example. In general people have been advised against using VDub2 for capturing. You have to try what works best for your setup though.

[dellsam34]

What's with those horizontal alternating bright lines? Are they in the viewfinder?

[DB83]

A simplistic take on a possible reason for the dropped frame(s) in Seq1

Seq1 = 'uncompressed' @ 166 mb/s
Seq2 = DV @ 24 mb/s


Not tested but....
typical lossless @ 46 mb/s


And we know little to nowt about your system. PC or laptop ?. No of drives etc.

[johnmeyer]

Good grief, I have to download almost a gigabyte of video?

There is no reason in the entire world to EVER use uncompressed.

As for this being a blind test, since DV is not uncompressed, I think everyone can guess which is which.

I will try to take a look, probably later in the day when your gigantic file finishes downloading.

[Marvolo]

What's with those horizontal alternating bright lines? Are they in the viewfinder?

Those horizontal lines must have been recorded by the camera. I can't explain what they are, how they came about and why they're there. Nearly all of my Video8 tapes have them.

[Marvolo]

Good grief, I have to download almost a gigabyte of video? .

Doesn't almost everybody have highspeed connection these days? Here in Germany, you can't possibly get lower than a 50 mbit/s connection, even if you wanted because no-one sells those anymore. 1 GB file takes a couple seconds for me.

But I appreciate the effort of downloading it for comparison purposes.

[Marvolo]

And we know little to nowt about your system. PC or laptop ?. No of drives etc.

Board: https://www.gigabyte.com/de/Motherboard/GA-EX58-UD5-rev-10#ov
CPU: https://www.amazon.de/Intel-i7-920-2-66GHz-LGA1366-Prozessor/dp/B001H5T7LK
RAM: 12 GB
HDDs: 2 SSDs (Dual Boot configuration) for system, 2 1TB HDDs for capturing. They're empty, ready to capture.
OS: Dual Boot configuration:
Windows XP SP3 x86 (SSD 1) for capturing with nothing but the capturing software installed and mandatory drivers
Windows 10 x64 (SSD 2) for normal, everyday usage.

During capture, VDub2 reported CPU activity around 2-4%.

[Bogilein]

Good grief, I have to download almost a gigabyte of video? .

Doesn't almost everybody have highspeed connection these days? Here in Germany, you can't possibly get lower than a 50 mbit/s connection, even if you wanted because no-one sells those anymore.

That may be off-topic, but I can't leave it like that. That's just wishful thinking, especially in rural areas. The largest provider in Germany still offers 16 Mbit/s connections although in some areas even these speeds are still not available.

Skiller has already given you the answer for the dropped frames here:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/410065-The-old-war-of-opinion-Capture-8mm-tapes-in...12#post2696078

The most important thing for me would be that audio and video are synchronized.

[Marvolo]

The most important thing for me would be that audio and video are synchronized.

While capturing with VDub2, this doesn't always seem to be the case. I noticed a slight offset in audio/video sync compared to when I was capturing using the Blackmagic Media Express Software a couple months ago.

[Sharc]

What's with those horizontal alternating bright lines? Are they in the viewfinder?

I have often seen these lines for SONY analog PAL video. Usually fixable in Avisynth with

separatefields()
vinverse()
weave()

No idea what's causing these stripes. Something like Hanover bars?

[Marvolo]

What's with those horizontal alternating bright lines? Are they in the viewfinder?

I have often seen these lines for SONY analog PAL video. Usually fixable in Avisynth with

separatefields()
vinverse()
weave()

No idea what's causing these stripes. Something like Hanover bars?

The original camcorder which recorded those tapes was a Blaupunkt CR-8000. I always assumed that the cam was faulty.

[Bogilein]

I recommend that you read through all the posts on the German video forum again.

https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/47587-massive-a-v-asynchronit%C3%A4t-bei-di...030#post455030
https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/46713-zeitgem%C3%A4%C3%9Fes-hochwertiges-an...usb-oder-hdmi/
https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/47572-tutorial-hochwertiges-digitalisieren-...en-und-andere/
https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/46740-aufruf-welche-ger%C3%A4te-stabilisier...talisierung-t/
https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/47775-dv-f%C3%BCr-s-vhs-als-arbeitsformat-a...hend/&pageNo=1

[johnmeyer]

There is no meaningful difference in color, noise, or detail. I didn't have the time to look for dropped frames, but if your fancy capture has dropped frames, as it did in the past, then that is enough to completely rule out using that.

Use the capture you've had all along and finish the project. You have WAY more issues to deal with (color correction, stabilization, and other enhancements). Those will make a much bigger difference in viewing enjoyment.

P.S. I am in a rural area. I have 25 mbps download, and 5 mbps upload.

[Marvolo]

but if your fancy capture has dropped frames, as it did in the past, .

Apparently, it does.
I don't know what else to do.

I'll try one more time and use a different software for capturing. Not VDub and not Blackmagic Media Express and if it produces dropped frames again, then I'm seriously done.

Never thought that capturing non-DV would be that complicated.

[DB83]

The answer is simple and especially if you are capturing on a non-Win10 system (I use Win7 but XP should also be fine)

Download and install the huffyuv lossless codec and download Amarectv as the capture program installing that codec.


The capture will be as good as that 'uncompressed' one and much, much smaller.

[Marvolo]

I'll try and then post the results.

[themaster1]

What's with those horizontal alternating bright lines? Are they in the viewfinder?

You have to use the Destripe filter in avisynth:

Before/after:
https://imgsli.com/MjM3MDE2

AVISource("Horizontal lines.avi")
assumetff()
converttoyv12(interlaced=true)

#1)  Deinterlacing in  LOSSLESS MODE with QTGMC:
QTGMC( Preset="fast", SourceMatch=3, Lossless=1, Sharpness=0.4, TR2=2, EdiThreads=4)
Selecteven()

#2) DESTRIPE FILTER (AS MANY INSTANCES AS REQUIRED TO GET RID OF THE STRIPES):

TurnLeft()
DeStripe(2,3,16)
DeStripe(2,2,16)
DeStripe(2,1,12)
TurnRight()

#3) Take care of residual combing with vinverse:
Vinverse()


#########################################

function DeStripe(Clip C, int "rad", int "offset", int "thr")
{

    rad = Default(rad, 2)
    offset = Default(offset, 0)
    thr_ = Default(thr, 256)


    Blurred = Rad == 1 ? C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : C
    Blurred = Rad == 2 ? offset == 0 ? C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 0 1 0 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : Blurred
    Blurred = Rad == 3 ? offset == 0 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : offset == 1 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : Blurred
    Blurred = Rad == 4 ? offset == 0 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) :  offset == 1 ? C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) :  offset == 2 ? C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : Blurred
    Blurred = Rad == 5 ? offset == 0 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) :  offset == 1 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) :  offset == 2 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) :  offset == 3 ?  C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : C.Mt_Convolution(Horizontal=" 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 ", vertical = " 1 ", u=1, v=1) : Blurred
        Diff = Mt_Makediff(C, Blurred)

    THR=string(thr_)
    MedianDiff =  Rad == 1 ? MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 1 0 -1 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : Diff
    MedianDiff =  Rad == 2 ? offset == 0 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 1 0 -1 0 2 0 -2 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 2 0 -2 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MedianDiff
    MedianDiff =  Rad == 3 ? offset == 0 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 1 0 -1 0 2 0 -2 0 3 0 -3 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : offset == 1 ? MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 2 0 -2 0 3 0 -3 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 3 0 -3 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MedianDiff
    MedianDiff =  Rad == 4 ? offset == 0 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 1 0 -1 0 2 0 -2 0 3 0 -3 0 4 0 -4 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : offset == 1 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 2 0 -2 0 3 0 -3 0 4 0 -4 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : offset == 2 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 3 0 -3 0 4 0 -4 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 4 0 -4 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MedianDiff
    MedianDiff =  Rad == 5 ? offset == 0 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 1 0 -1 0 2 0 -2 0 3 0 -3 0 4 0 -4 0 5 0 -5 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : offset == 1 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 2 0 -2 0 3 0 -3 0 4 0 -4 0 5 0 -5 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : offset == 2 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 3 0 -3 0 4 0 -4 0 5 0 -5 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : offset == 3 ?  MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 4 0 -4 0 5 0 -5 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MT_Luts(Diff, Diff, mode="med", pixels = " 0 0 5 0 -5 0 " ,  expr = " X Y - X Y - X Y - abs 1 + * X Y - abs 1 + "+THR+" 1 >= "+THR+" 0.5 ^ "+THR+" ? + / - 128 +", u=1,v=1) : MedianDiff
        ReconstructedMedian = mt_makediff(Diff, MedianDiff)
            Mt_AddDiff(Blurred, ReconstructedMedian)

Return(Mergechroma(Last, C, 1))
}