Blockbuster chooses Blu-ray: is the war over?

[edDV]

... and I'll miss the times when the popcorn goes flying when the films break.

The DVD player could still jam.

[FulciLives]

The Carmike theatre chain has converted nearly 1200 screens to DLP digital including the Carmike 10 in Pittsburgh

You beat me to t.
http://www.carmike.com/showtimedetails.aspx?theatrenumber=075865

The main advantage with a digital cinema is the film never gets dirty.

This is amusing as this movie theatre is all of 5 or so miles from me LOL

It's not the theatre I normally go to though and the last time I was there was when LAND OF THE DEAD was out and it wasn't digital then and that really wasn't all that long ago.

I'll have to check it out. I wouldn't mind seeing the new DIE HARD film.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[SatStorm]

Just to add my (euro)cent to this conversation.

Panasonic technicians, called some EISA members 3 months ago to tell them that on TV Screens less than 50", when you watch through a distance around 3 - 3.5 meters, you don't see visually any difference between 720p and 1080i/p
3 meter is the average distance the Europeans watch TV.

Pioneer, called 2 months ago some other EISA members, to show them that on 37 and 40" LCD screens, upscaled DVD Video (to 720p) and 1080i downscaled to 720p, looks visually the same. On full HD panels and 42" screens, some may see a slighty difference between upscaled DVD to 720p and a true 1080i source.

In Germany, on late May, Anga Cable took place. Various companies and especially homecast. golden interstar, humax, vantage and Kaon, told and show to visitors typical (German and Austrian usually) DVB channels upscaled with their new DVB S2 recievers to 1080i and 720p. They compared those upscaled channels with Euro1080, Anixe and ProSieben HD (some also show movies from Premiere HD). Those are true 1080i DVB S2 channels. On 40" and 42" LCD / Plasma screens, those upscaled TV channels looked the same as the HD channels.

Samsung, that suplies Sony's latest LCD screens, created 3 filters the last 5 years with M.S.U. (yes, the same M.S.U. of the famous smart deblocking filter). Samsung use those 3 filters to the LCD panels (and some of them on the plasma ones, but not combined with 100hz) for the so called "Motion Drive Engine". That engine does the following: de-interlace the source, convert 576i to 480p using all the 576i lines and - here is the good one - adds around 12 fake frames every second to the 25 of PAL. Those 12 fake frames, are made up not by pulldown technics, but using morphing technics! That creates an amazing motion effect, almost 3D. It makes EVERY movie look like a BBC Theater presentation (which is very good, if you like realism, but also bad because shows all the flows and the cheap FX of the movies...).

Why I mention this?
Because of all those various observations I posted here, Samsung LOCKed those fuctions on their newest TVs (tulip series,etc) and they are also locked on the latest Sony LCD TVs. By using HDMI 1.3 and who knows what else, when those TVs detect upscaled video signal, automatic shut down the use of those filters and do a "pass through" operation to the upscaled signal direct to the panel. So, you loose all those benefits that those technologies gives you, combined with upscaled signal.

The only unlocked TVs I know that exist with those technologies, are Samsung M71 (both 32" and 40") and M91 (only 40"). Combine them with a Pioneer 696 or a DVB S2 reciever with upscale abilities and you see how High Definition blows in your eyes. On 40" you see no difference between upscaled DVDs and HDDVD/Blu Ray

And an "inside" info from Samsung...
The latest "Tulip" Samsung TVs (and Sony ones...), when you connect a DVD through SCART and RGB (that means 576i) you have better picture that connect them with HDMI.

The reason? With analogue 576i PAL signal, those build in MSU filters take over to convert video to 480p and upscale them to 1366x768 or 1920x1080 panels. If you use HDMI and you upscale the signal to 720p or 1080i, the TV gonna "pass through" it and de-activate the motion drive (only use the 100Hz if the panel runs them). If you set your DVD player / DVB S2 reciever to 576p, then the TV set gonna convert the picture to 480p by dropping lines and not using the build in filters (those from MSU). The rest filters (upscale to 720p/1080i and the frame rate convertor filter that adds fake frames created with morphing technics between true frames) are remain active.
In short terms: use HDMI and with PAL you loose around 96 lines... Use RGB through SCART, a 30 year old analogue technology, and you have a better picture. I don't know if the trick works with component connections.

Now the question is: Why this happens?
The answer is very obvious: Since with PAL and filters/techincs you have on 40" screens visually a picture equally with a 720p picture from 1080i sources, then why to buy HD sources?
To see a difference you need 50" screens (according to Panasonic)

So, the big ones de-activate all those solutions to push HDTV. And since Sony use Samsung TV panels and the same "motion drive" technology (based on the MSU filters) it is more than obvious that there is a connection here...

Did Sony "forced" Samsung to de-activate those filters on the latest TVs, so to create a fake impression to the costumers? Without those filters, a true 1080i picture (from BD/HDDVD) looks indeed far better a typical DVD or the DVB channels on 40" screens (or more).

Finally, let me also point something: 1080p at 24 framerate has motion problems on today's TVs. Full HD panels don't support that framerate. You see a stroboscopic like picture. You have to switch to 1080i at 50/60hz to avoid this problem.

The botton line: Sony somehow is related with this. And just because of this, I won't support Blu Ray. I won't accept as a person, cheap technology tricks to switch to HD. I searched and bought my M91 from Samsung, a Homecast DVB S2 reciever and a Pioneer 696 DVD player, and for the next 5 years, I can show the "bird" to Blu Ray.
Mean while, I found a use for HD DVD players today: I can burn regular DVD-Rs and author them as HD DVD using x264 compression and have TODAY my own (fake) HD DVDs, sourced from HD DVB S2 channels, very - very cheap. An alternative I also have, is burning on regular DVD-Rs around 8 hours of x264 material, at 720x576 framesize, that is authored as "HD DVD". Those play perfect on my LG Blu Ray/HD DVD combo player. And because of x264, I have a picture equally to superbit DVDs in the 1/4 of that bitrate!

[dvd3500]

that on TV Screens less than 50", when you watch through a distance around 3 - 3.5 meters, you don't see visually any difference between 720p and 1080i/p
3 meter is the average distance the Europeans watch TV.

WOOHOO!! GReat! I didn't want a new TV anyway!

[Nilfennasion]

To see a difference you need 50" screens (according to Panasonic)

Panasonic apparently live in a world where everyone needs Coke-bottle glasses if they really believe that. And I am not saying that to rubbish anyone. I am saying that in a world where there are endless variations on human size, skin colour, eye colour, hair colour, muscular development, nervous development, and even physical brain structure, the idea Panasonic have that everyone needs 50" screens to see the difference between upsampled 576I and native 1080I is utterly dumbfounding.

But then, I speak as someone who still can make out the individual dots that make up a 576I DVD frame on an eighty-centimetre cathode ray tube, so I might just be speaking for the mere one in a hundred and fifty that I represent. Which still happens to translate into more people than live in the countries called Australia, Sweden, or Norway, among others, so its not like we can be dismissed as insignificant.

[edDV]

To get the full resolution and movie experience for a 50" 16:9 screen,

Maximum recommended SMPTE viewing distance (30 degree viewing angle) is
6.8ft ~ 2.0m

Maximum THX viewing distance (26 degree viewing angle) is
7.9ft ~ 2.4m

Recommended THX viewing distance (36 degree viewing angle) is
5.6ft ~ 1.7m

Mind that this is intended for an immersive movie experience, not the 11pm news. These are similar proportions to those used for cinema design. If you sit farther back, you don't need 1920x1080 resolution.

Ref: http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html

[edDV]

...

Finally, let me also point something: 1080p at 24 framerate has motion problems on today's TVs. Full HD panels don't support that framerate. You see a stroboscopic like picture. You have to switch to 1080i at 50/60hz to avoid this problem.

No display shows 24p directly.

Normal analog PAL runs 24p as 50i to lessen flicker. LCD sets repeat 25p to 50p or 100p.

Analog NTSC telecines film and displays resulting fields at 59.94Hz. LCD sets repeat 23.976p frames 3x then 2x for effective 59.94Hz refresh. Newest high tech sets repeat 23.976p frames 4x to 96Hz or 5x to 120Hz refresh.

I like the idea of interpolating intermediate frames at display. It was only a matter of time.

[SatStorm]

@Nilfennasion: I think you missunderstood me: Panasonic said that true 720p and true 1080i/p looks the same on TV screens less than 50" when you watch them from a 3m distance.

@edDV: Exactly. They market 24p as the best thing Blu Ray / HD DVD can offer, and technical speaking it might be the best thing. But at the same time there are no TVs out there today to support that framerate! So, what's the point?
Watching Casino Royal at 24p, looks like watching cinema at 18fps...

[edDV]

@edDV: Exactly. They market 24p as the best thing Blu Ray / HD DVD can offer, and technical speaking it might be the best thing. But at the same time there are no TVs out there today to support that framerate! So, what's the point?
Watching Casino Royal at 24p, looks like watching cinema at 18fps...

24p storage and/or transmission mainly has advantage for "NTSC" environments.

24p storage allows longer playing times or higher bitrate per frame for DVD or more efficient use of bandwidth for transmission.

Since PAL is already 25fps there isn't as much to be gained going to 24fps. For telecined NTSC, the efficiency gain is ~20% going from 1080i 29.97fps to 1080i 23.976fps.

NTSC progressive DVD stores frames at 23.976 but outputs at 480i/29.97fps or 480p/59.94fps. HD/BD DVD currently do the same for 1080p/23.976 native movies. The next gen HD/BD DVD players will allow output at 23.976fps directly to the display over HDMI. The various displays will take the 23.976 and frame repeat to 3x, 4x, 5x without the need for IVTC for 29.976 or frame decimation for 59.94.

Nobody talks about the advantages for transmission. Currently 1080i/23.976 is sent at 29.97fps and 720p is sent as 59.94. ATSC allows 1080p/23.976 and 720p/23.976 transmission. In the case of 720p, two movies could be sent at 23.976 in the bandwidth now used for one. It would even be easy to send three 720p/23.976 movies in one 19 Mb/s ATSC channel. This only works for movies and other 24p material.

So expect to hear more about 24p for these reasons.

[SatStorm]

All those you mention, are well known. I'm not against 24p and I hear a lot of 24p already. It is the future, probably the universal standard in the next generation of what they gonna make! With HDTV they eliminate the framesize differences we had with PAL/NTSC and now they try to eliminate the framerate differences. This is a step in the right direction.
Technically speaking, 24p has plenty benefits and most of all you have a source which is not a product of any kind of convertion (if the source is Film of course...).

The "What's the point" I said, goes here: They marketing 24p in the wrong way! They says "24p" is the best. With "24p" you have the best source. Watch "24p" for a true-movie like experience. They don't mention it's about the storage, the technology. the best source. They just say "better", "best",etc.
And people expects to use 24p direct and see best!

When you have a full HDTV around 50", HDMI 1.3 connetions and a BluRay/HD DVD that supports and outputs to 24p, you have "the best" of today's technology and you expect the best. You have paid much for the best.

Well, Stroboscopic-like movement is not what you expect. Neither "downscale" to 1080i looks acceptable. It's about people's psychology! You bought something that outputs 24p, the "best" in today's technology and you set up to watch to 1080i? No way!

IMO, the next couple of years, we gonna see many "average joe" costumers disatisfied with this situation. I mean, ok with movies but a stroboscopic like movement in sports... Can you imagine it?

[edDV]

I'd vote to move everything to 30p-60p myself. They could promote "in tune with natural earth rotation". 24p was an arbitrary choice made for economic rather than artistic reasons back when sync sound was introduced in the 1930s. It was the slowest they could move the film without the audience getting physically sick. Now 24p is part of the sacred "film look" and the extremely conservative theatrical "artistic" community has resisted any improvement in frame rate.

For the technical community it has been a legacy support issue. For those reasons alone, 48p would make more sense. As the industry moves from film stock to electronic acquisition and display, 24p has lost any lasting economic advantage to the "film" industry although the telcos like slow frame rates. The technical idea to interpolate intermediate frames to smooth motion is a thinly disguised effort to move to 48p.

Real film is never projected at 24p. The projector gate repeats frames 2x, 3x or 4x to control flicker. Electronic displays do the same.

24p would never be acceptable for "live" programming or consumer video. 48p to 72p is needed. More would be nice.

[gotnotime]

If you are going to do things right, I vote for IMAX HD, with an estimated 10,000 x7000 resolution at 48fps.

I think the viewing distance to discern the difference in quality would be about 3 inches.

Too bad we don't have HDTV that can produce that kind of resolution. However, it would make blu ray and DVD-HD obsolete as we would probably need a 1 terabyte disk to hold the movies

[SCDVD]

The botton line: Sony somehow is related with this. And just because of this, I won't support Blu Ray. I won't accept as a person, cheap technology tricks to switch to HD.

From everything we hear about Sony, it seems like everything they do is somehow a "cheap trick".

[SatStorm]

You can't imagine how silly most current Hollywood movies look with the "motion drive" engine. At the same time, you really sit down to watch old movies from the "golden age" of Hollywood. You know, those that airs on TCM and such. I was never a fan of those old movies (except some comedies) but watching B/W or colour musicals from the 30s and 40s, turns to an amazing experiance with this technology! And you can see the quality of the production, the human touch on those movies. It's like being there in a theater and watch a live show! And I'm also amazed with what this technology does with the classic cartoons: It's like watching them for the first time! And not only this: TV Series, especially those from the 70s and early / mid 80s. They look amazing! The quality of the production on those series now really shows compared those current cheap productions.

And suddently because they wish to push HDTV, they "lock" all this wonderfull technology from the upscaled DVDs and the DVB channels!

A technology crime! That is what they doing...

[Nilfennasion]

@Nilfennasion: I think you missunderstood me: Panasonic said that true 720p and true 1080i/p looks the same on TV screens less than 50" when you watch them from a 3m distance.

I guess so. I still reject such an idea. 1080 is 1.5 times the pixels of 720, a difference that is quite significant on monitors (I still remember when I ran a VESA display in 480 x 360 and was blown away by how much of an improvement it offered over 320 x 240, but I am funny like that).

I still believe Panasonic were just pulling that statement out of a hat, but that's just me.

[jawgee]

Here's some interesting analysis to restoke the fire:

http://blog.pixelperfectproductions.com/?p=54

I think HD DVD is playing Solitare from a Pinochle deck, but like folks here have mentioned, there's plenty of pie left to divvy up.

Thanks,
jawgee

[lordsmurf]

http://blog.pixelperfectproductions.com/?p=54

This page is a perfect example of why the Internet is full of losers. From the original article all the way down to the final comment. Between fudged statistics and the insistence that porn decides who wins a format war, I can't decide which person on that page is a bigger dumbass.

Simpletons are over-simplifying a complex matter.

[DereX888]

http://blog.pixelperfectproductions.com/?p=54

This page is a perfect example of why the Internet is full of losers. From the original article all the way down to the final comment. Between fudged statistics and the insistence that porn decides who wins a format war, I can't decide which person on that page is a bigger dumbass.

Simpletons are over-simplifying a complex matter.

OMFG
(I checked the link... didnt read to the end though, just can't stomache that much idiocy at once)

[FulciLives]

I just wasted my time reading all that garbage. I can't seem to understand why the Blu-Ray format has so many "fan boys". Is it all because of the PS3? It seems that way *shrug*

I've been thinking of buying either an XboX 360 or PS3 this Christmas coming and at first I was leaning towards the PS3 because I know there are some good games coming to it that are supposedly exclusives ... stuff I really want ... like RESIDENT EVIL 5 and the next FINAL FANTASY.

BUT ... the Xbox 360 has SO many more games and even more of the type I like that the PS3 seems almost like vaporware in comparison. Where are all the PS3 games? I see almost no exclusive PS3 titles that are "must buys". At least nothing that is currently available. My guess is RESIDENT EVIL 5 eventually comes out for the XboX 360 making the next FINAL FANTASY title the only PS3 exclusive that excites me.

I might just have to buy an Xbox 360 instead.

Oh wait ... thought just occurred to me ... no wonder the PS3 fanboys are pushing Blu-Ray movies so hard. That's about all they can do with their PS3 since it hardly has any games available for it LOL

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[rhegedus]

Oh wait ... thought just occurred to me ... no wonder the PS3 fanboys are pushing Blu-Ray movies so hard. That's about all they can do with their PS3 since it hardly has any games available for it LOL

I'm neither a gamer or a fan-boy

The choice just came down to numbers.

[Nilfennasion]

FulciLives: People were saying similar things about the PS2 when the battle was between Dreamcast, PS2, and N64. Hate to sound like a broken record, but its worth mentioning.

I am not a fanboy, either. In fact I have no plans on buying a PS3. I only bought a PS2 like eighteen months ago. Games are a non-issue for me until EA's control over the market is broken. Or EA goes back to the way they were in the Commodore 64 days when they made games that did not suck dead bunnies through straws.

But it is ironic that you should compare the available games for 360 and PS3, because if you substitute "films" for "games", that is exactly the force that drives me toward Blu-Ray. Almost every title I have any desire to see in high definition is on Blu-Ray. I have been chomping at the bit to see Casino Royale on Blu-Ray ever since I saw the SD-DVD and reflected how much of a comedown from 4000P 576I really is. If I get the spare cash to buy a player and PS3 turns out to be the most economical choice, then so be it. But somehow I believe I will be going in another direction brand-wise.

[dphirschler]

N64 was a PS1 competitor. The Gamecube was Nintendo's PS2 challenger. But your point is still valid.

However, I remember when DVD was fresh and new and EVERYBODY wanted in. But this time with Bluray and HDDVD, I don't see the same kind of universal buzz. Personally, I think people are content with what DVD has to offer. Maybe when more people have hidef TVs that will change. But I've heard time and again how good a proper anamorphic DVD looks on a hidef display. So maybe it will be "good enough" even then.

I don't see either format really taking off.


Darryl

[DereX888]

N64 was a PS1 competitor. The Gamecube was Nintendo's PS2 challenger. But your point is still valid.

However, I remember when DVD was fresh and new and EVERYBODY wanted in. But this time with Bluray and HDDVD, I don't see the same kind of universal buzz. Personally, I think people are content with what DVD has to offer. Maybe when more people have hidef TVs that will change. But I've heard time and again how good a proper anamorphic DVD looks on a hidef display. So maybe it will be "good enough" even then.

I don't see either format really taking off.


Darryl

People in majority still use the old "standard resolution" TVs. Obviously there is no advantage whatsoever for them to buy *any* high-resolution player.
"Battle" between BR-DVD and HD-DVD will be "fought" and resolved when most of people finally cave in and replace SD with HD tv screens.
But by then there may be another format on the market...

[FulciLives]

I only bought a PS2 like eighteen months ago.

Funny you said this ... I only bought a PS2 as of March 2006 ... so I've only had mine for about 16 months now LOL

Prior to that I bought a PSOne the Christmas that the PS2 was first released.

I'm a bit "behind" on console game machines LOL

But I have a 51" 16x9 WS HDTV so I'm dying to see some Hi-Def games as well as Hi-Def movies (and not just stuff on PAY-PER-VIEW or Cable TV etc.)

I'm leaning towards HD-DVD myself but Anchor Bay Entertainment recently announced that later this year they will be releasing some quality cult films on Blu-Ray (including my favorite movie of all time ... the original DAWN OF THE DEAD) so now I'm really torn as they mentioned only Blu-Ray

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Nilfennasion]

I have just been to the Blu-Ray website (don't laugh), and RoboCop is expected by this time next year, care of Fox's Blu-Ray unit. So it's game over, HD-DVD. At least as far as I am concerned.

But then, with only one studio exclusively supporting HD-DVD, calling it Sony fanboyism is extremely shallow. This is more than just Sony now. Almost every part of Hollywood has ruled in favour of Blu-Ray. So that Anchor Bay might join the Blu-Ray pack exclusively is neither surprising nor bad.

Quite honestly, today's video games are so good that I am playing tabletop model games and Dungeons & Dragons. And this is coming from someone who used to spend entire afternoons doing nothing but playing C64 games.

[lordsmurf]

I wonder what the stats are on used games vs new games. For my observations, old games seem to own the market still. Companies like Sony won't see it, but a lot of money still trades hands for NES, SNES, N64, Genesis, Gamecube, Gameboy, Atari, etc. When somebody tells me they bought a Wii, the excitement in their voice is never as intense as those who just bought a NES or Atari 2600, or even the more recent PS2 and XBOX.

It all comes down to satisfaction. Most folks seem to be satisfied with the items currently available, especially at used prices.

This does not bode well for next-gen technology. Each successive generation does not make a previous generation "obsolete" as much as it makes it more readily available and accessible, even on a lemonade stand income. Those old products do not disappear.

Why buy a next-gen HD disc player and HD movie when I can just as easily buy 10 DVD players and 10 movies, and probably still have money left over for a year-long subscription to Netflix.

There are still stores that specialize in VHS. It's far from dead.

[Nilfennasion]

There is a chain popping up all over Australia called Gametraders that sells either second-hand or liquidated stock. Generally speaking, they are hailed by local gamers not because they sell games for machines no longer in production, but because they introduce some competition into areas. But the kicker is that in one conversation with a manager, I was informed the real reason Gametraders only sell new stock in areas where it is impossible to get liquidated stock is because there is no margin whatsoever in selling new. Apparently the price retailers like Harvey Norman or Evil Boutique buy the games at is such that when they charge a hundred dollars, they are lucky to have a dollar left once their overheads are paid.

As I indicated earlier, EA has created a situation where it is no longer profitable to make fun games, only games with a recognisable license. Resident Evil 4 was literally so bad that it holds the distinct honour of being the only Resident Evil game I have not played to completion. I gave up after repeating the same button-mash sequence so many times that I had to go to the doctor because I ruptured a blood vessel screaming things like "[expletive] off, you filthy rigging [expletive]". I might be a minority in letting it show that much, but it should tell you something about why video games are not viewed with anywhere near the awe we had in the Commodore Amiga days.

VHS would be dead if all life support were cut off, however. People were crying out for a format that looked the same on the first play and the thousandth long before DVD-Video was an itch in Toshiba's pants. I still look at what my father records on VHS as a time-delay, and it never ceases to amaze me that we put up with it for this long.

[msspurlock]

HD DVD players are outselling Blu-ray 3 to 1 in Europe.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/10371.cfm

Blockbuster is about one month away from bankruptcy at any given time.

Netflix has just sealed a deal with Amazon and TiVo that will make store rentals practically obsolete.

Anyone who says it's over isn't paying attention or has an axe to grind.

[MozartMan]

HD DVD players are outselling Blu-ray 3 to 1 in Europe.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/10371.cfm

Blockbuster is about one month away from bankruptcy at any given time.

Netflix has just sealed a deal with Amazon and TiVo that will make store rentals practically obsolete.

Anyone who says it's over isn't paying attention or has an axe to grind.

It's all FUD.

[gotnotime]

HD DVD players are outselling Blu-ray 3 to 1 in Europe.

http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/10371.cfm

Blockbuster is about one month away from bankruptcy at any given time.

Netflix has just sealed a deal with Amazon and TiVo that will make store rentals practically obsolete.

Anyone who says it's over isn't paying attention or has an axe to grind.

Europe??? Oh yeah they have a profound impact on the U.S. market like the PAL format for TV's. The biggest force for determining the HD format remains with the money, and that is the movie industry. With about 5% of gross revenues from U.S. movies coming from eurotrash, the european market has no impact.

I agree with you that Blockbuster is in big trouble. However, their decision to drop the HD DVD format is a cost cutting measure based on their best guess of which format will predominate. They are gambling that bluray will prevail. The fact that a vast majority of the movie companies produce bluray DVD's supports their decision.

This Netflix-Amazon deal has been going on since 2004. The new "unbox" is just a form of Video on demand that we have had with cable and satellite companies for years and is no where near making rentals obsolete. Even when they do become extinct, this has no impact on the demand for HD DVD or bluray as people will still want to have personal archives of their favorite movies.

Furthermore, have you seen the quality of this system? its less then standard DVD, and you cant even get widescreen. Best of all they use our favorite video format Microsoft's WMV and for that reason alone, I will not use it.