Blockbuster chooses Blu-ray: is the war over?

[SatStorm]

HD to SD reminds me a bit of VHS to SVHS...
Back then, you needed around 29" TV to see the difference between VHS and SVHS.
Right now, you need a 46" or more to see the difference between a PAL DVD and HD.

Without marketing tricks (like locking the filters inside the widscreen TVs when they detect upscaled signals), I don't see any interest regarding HDTV soon. You need big TV screens to see the difference HDTV can give you. Unfortunatelly, our houses don't get any bigger...

[rhegedus]

Right now, you need a 46" or more to see the difference between a PAL DVD and HD.

Surely if the difference between PAL and NTSD DVDs is noticable, then the difference between SD and HD is more so.

[SatStorm]

Without filters and resizing technics, then the difference beetween an NTSC and a PAL DVD is noticeable on good TV screens.
On the average 28" CRT one, they look alike with a decent DVD standalone player.
At the same fashion, the difference between an upscaled PAL DVD and a HD on an average LCD 40" TV for example, is visually non existent. If you see a difference, then you belong to those gifted ones, capable to see a difference only few can.

HDTV is a great improvement over NTSC and a fair improvement over PAL, but the difference is that with us, the PAL users,bigger screens are needed to start "feel" the difference. Yes, the screens can get bigger, but our houses no! I believe that for the average European household, the "bigger" you can go regarding the available space, is around a 50" TV screen (The sweat spot is 42" for a typical small-average living room).
On those screen sizes, the difference between HDTV and upscaled PAL, is not something that is going to make you adopt it. That's why it reminds me SVHS vs VHS... Yeas, SVHS looks better VHS on many TVs. But not enough to make you go and buy a SVHS VCR and use it.

[edDV]

It comes down room size and style of viewing. I've noticed Europeans tend to prefer smaller screen sizes for a given room size. Japanese tend to use large screens in small rooms to get the "theater" effect and immersive gaming experience. Americans tend to use moderate screen sizes with greater viewing distance.

[Mr_Mojo_Risin]

Without filters and resizing technics, then the difference beetween an NTSC and a PAL DVD is noticeable on good TV screens.
On the average 28" CRT one, they look alike with a decent DVD standalone player.
At the same fashion, the difference between an upscaled PAL DVD and a HD on an average LCD 40" TV for example, is visually non existent. If you see a difference, then you belong to those gifted ones, capable to see a difference only few can.

HDTV is a great improvement over NTSC and a fair improvement over PAL, but the difference is that with us, the PAL users,bigger screens are needed to start "feel" the difference. Yes, the screens can get bigger, but our houses no! I believe that for the average European household, the "bigger" you can go regarding the available space, is around a 50" TV screen (The sweat spot is 42" for a typical small-average living room).
On those screen sizes, the difference between HDTV and upscaled PAL, is not something that is going to make you adopt it. That's why it reminds me SVHS vs VHS... Yeas, SVHS looks better VHS on many TVs. But not enough to make you go and buy a SVHS VCR and use it.

Astounding comment…I own a Toshiba 37X3030 (Full HD), a Toshiba SD360E(up scaling DVD player), Sky HD and HD-DVD add on for XBOX360.

I must say that the difference between upscaled DVD (although very good) and HD-DVD is like night and day….in my opinion the difference is as discernable as VHS and DVD….so why aren’t we all still using VHS?

[SatStorm]

@Mr_Mojo_Risin: Is that just happens because they have locked your TV filters when it detects upscaled signals?

Try to install your DVD player using the RGB SCART connections on your LCD TV and watch a DVD with plenty motion. Did you notice any difference in movement? In picture quality?
Did you even bothered to compare if there is a difference? Or you simply used HDMI cables and you think that you have the 100% of the technology?

How your TV handle internally the signal through the HDMI cables and the HDCP, when the signal is upscaled? Common logic says : Upscaled signal + TV filters. Yes, but if those TV Filters are de-activated because HDCP detected upscaled signal, is what you get on your screen the 100% of what you could get?

In the matter of fact, did you even bother to read some pages ago, why this might happens?

Exactly this is the problem: You see a "huge" difference between HD-DVD, Sky HD and an upscaled DVD and you think that the reason for this is the superiority of the HD sources.

Well, no: You are a victim of this technology crime they doing those days to boost HD overall. It is not the superiority of the HD sources: It is that they don't let your upscaled DVD signal to be proccessed by all the filters of your TV.

[rhegedus]

@Satstorm

Is there a way to test the upscale theory usung something like Virtual Dub i.e. is there a resize filter that approximates to upscaling?

[SatStorm]

Beyond the well known "High quality image and video resampling" filter from M.S.U. (www.compression.ru/video/resampling/index_en.html) and the "MSU Super-Resolution Filter" (http://www.compression.ru/video/super_resolution/super_resolution_en.html)
I don't know any other related filter.

Video Enhancer from Deemon (www.thedeemon.com), use a technic very close to MSU Super Resolution filter. There is a demo there to test a bit

[Nilfennasion]

*yawn*

I have seen this all before, it's called the Anything Is Good Enough theory. HD isn't better, it's just a marketing game!

What it is, ladies and gentlemen, is a load of bollocks.

Even if you do not play it at full resolution, HD gives you places to go in terms of playback, namely down. You can scale it down to 720P, 720I, 576P, and so on, if your equipment will sync to that. Once you are at 576I or 480I, there is no way back. Sure, you can "upscale" it, but all you are doing is making your pixels approximately twice as big. And people who can see well enough to read a shop's sign from across a football field like my good self can always see the difference.

Notably, Target has just announced they are supporting Blu-Ray exclusively. HD-DVD made the usual piss and moan about how Target customers will balk at the price and go to HD-DVD instead, but seriously, when major retailers join seven out of eight major studios in snubbing a format, its curtains.

[lordsmurf]

Americans tend to use moderate screen sizes with greater viewing distance.

Because our mothers told us we'd go blind if we sat too close. Or in grade school, our friends told us we'd go sterile.

[SatStorm]

Nobody said my friend Nilfennasion, the HD is not better.
I simply said that with today's 42" LCD screens or less, usually you can't tell the difference between a 720p and 1080p source. At the same time, upscaled DVDs look pretty good, good enough to make you don't bother with HD sources. There is a difference, but not so big to make you buy new equipment. Especially if your TV set is 1 or 2 years old.

There is a difference: But is that difference enough to make you wish to adopt the new technology?
There was a difference between VHS and SVHS. But was that difference enough to make the consumers switch to SVHS and left behind VHS?

I'm a technology fanatic myself. I adopt new technologies fast and I spent my money on those things. But I'm not the average person. Neither most forum members here are: We are beyond the average regarding those video related areas.
The success to understand the market, is to see things through the eyes of the so called "average Joe". And the european average Joe, just got his LCD/Plasma screen, which is probably the best last year's model, in half price and around 40" in screen size. With that screen, he can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p and don't see enough difference between upscaled DVD and HD. He does see a difference, but not something to make him run to the store and buy HD DVD or Blu Ray.

The benefits of HD sources are plenty and the superiority is out of question. The problem is that it doesn't shows on today's low entry / mid LCD / Plasma screens.

The Viewing distance and the screen sizes are not something to pass by: There is an upper limit of what screen size you can have on a room. And the distance to watch TV is determined by the size of the room too. The screens can get bigger and cheaper, but our rooms no. And I don't know a person that changed his home because he got a bigger TV that don't fit in his house.

The options for the industry are 2: Or to present something that really benefits from HD on those "small" screensizes (like SED screens, or OLED or something else, like that laser TV), or make the people to believe that HD looks better even with today's screens.
They choosed option 2 - They marketing hard about the benefits of HDTV and at the same time they locked whatever could make SDTV look better on those new screens. I don't have a problem with the first thing, but I do have a problem with the second one!

[gotnotime]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling...

The bad news for HD DVD is piling on, bad sales, 7 of 8 movie studios against it, Blockbuster, and now Target.

Its over, scrap your HD DVD player, make it into a bookend, or donate it to the museum of natural history. The only HD fans are the ones who bought it. So stop your wining

[MozartMan]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling...

The bad news for HD DVD is piling on, bad sales, 7 of 8 movie studios against it, Blockbuster, and now Target.

And now BJ's:

BJ's Wholesale Club stores to carry Blu-ray exclusively:

JULY 26 | East Coast chain BJ’s Wholesale Club will drop HD DVD from its shelves and carry the Blu-ray Disc format exclusively by the fourth quarter, according to sources at the retailer and several Hollywood studios.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6463556.html

[FulciLives]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling...

The bad news for HD DVD is piling on, bad sales, 7 of 8 movie studios against it, Blockbuster, and now Target.

And now BJ's:

BJ's Wholesale Club stores to carry Blu-ray exclusively:

JULY 26 | East Coast chain BJ’s Wholesale Club will drop HD DVD from its shelves and carry the Blu-ray Disc format exclusively by the fourth quarter, according to sources at the retailer and several Hollywood studios.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6463556.html

I live in Pittsburgh, PA in the USA and have never even heard of BJ's Wholesale Club little alone shopped at one. How big could they be?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gadgetguy]

I've never heard of BJs either but it looks like they have about 200 locations spread across 16 eastern states (including PA).

[MozartMan]

I live in Pittsburgh, PA in the USA and have never even heard of BJ's Wholesale Club little alone shopped at one. How big could they be?

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Here some info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BJ's_Wholesale_Club

[FulciLives]

I've never heard of BJs either but it looks like they have about 200 locations spread across 16 eastern states (including PA).

Well in the state of PA you really only have two major markets ... Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. They have NO stores even remotely near Pittsburgh and I've never seen a TV ad or newspaper ad etc.

They are a non entity to me. They have 170 stores according to that article. Big freakin' deal.

Course I feel the same way about Fry's ... people here are always talking about it but this place is the first and only place I've ever heard of Fry's as they don't exist at all in the state of PA.

In fact I just looked at the Fry's website and they hardly have any stores and only exist in 10 states. Seems odd considering how many people have mentioned Fry's here.

*shrug*

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[gadgetguy]

BJ's is a non-entity to me too since I live in MI, but the fact that they have that many stores in a very densely populated portion of the nation should mean something to the HD-DVD distributors.

[lordsmurf]

Well in the state of PA you really only have two major markets ... Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. ....... Course I feel the same way about Fry's ... people here are always talking about it but this place is the first and only place I've ever heard of Fry's as they don't exist at all in the state of PA........ In fact I just looked at the Fry's website and they hardly have any stores and only exist in 10 states. Seems odd considering how many people have mentioned Fry's here.

Think of it this way:
Los Angeles - pop. 12.9 million
Dallas/Ft.Worth - pop. 6.1 million
Houston - pop. 5.5 million
Atlanta - pop. 5.2 million
Phoenix - pop. 4.0 million
Seattle/Tacoma - pop. 3.3 million
San Diego - pop. 2.9 million
Las Vegas - pop. 1.8 million

Fry's has stores in those honker-sized markets. The are on the west and southern coasts, mostly. Hardly what I'd call a small store. They are big players in their markets (computers and electronics ... not movies or CDs). Very big, especially in Texas and California, two of the largest states (by population) in the USA. They have stores in other sizeable markets too, I just rattled off ones I know.

Philadelphia - pop. 5.8 million
Pittsburgh - pop. 2.3 million

Philadelphia is a large market, but not the largest. They have larger. And then Pittsburgh is a bit small too. Big, but far from a major player. These are recent census numbers for MSAs (metropolitan statistical areas).

Now then, this BJs seems like another SAM's or Costco. I don't know that "wholesale club" types of stores are major market forces. It'd be interesting to see how they stack up against others. My initial feeling is they're a bit player.

[bbanderic]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling...

The bad news for HD DVD is piling on, bad sales, 7 of 8 movie studios against it, Blockbuster, and now Target.

And now BJ's:

BJ's Wholesale Club stores to carry Blu-ray exclusively:

JULY 26 | East Coast chain BJ’s Wholesale Club will drop HD DVD from its shelves and carry the Blu-ray Disc format exclusively by the fourth quarter, according to sources at the retailer and several Hollywood studios.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6463556.html

Definitely not good for HD-DVD, especially with the Target decision. If Blu-Ray can get one of the other heavy hitters to support it exclusively...Walmart, Circuit City or Sears...then it would be game, set, match.

[MozartMan]

Definitely not good for HD-DVD, especially with the Target decision.

Yeah, definitely. Here is the situation:

[Nilfennasion]

It was game, set, match, and war, when Universal became the only studio to support HD-DVD exclusively. From that point on, it was only a matter of time where retailers were concerned. Retailers do not give two craps if one player is cheaper than the other if that player does not have sufficient content being made for it. You only sell one player per household when the players are around AU$999. It is the discs the customer keeps coming back for. And of the films either expected or already there on a high-def format, Blu-Ray outnumbers HD-DVD more than 3:1.

HD-DVD will hang in there as long as it can, but this is going to be exactly like the Betamax situation. Stores will carry a small selection of it to please customers who bet the wrong way early in the game, then it will progressively disappear.

There are no retailers in Australia who have defied the trend of going exclusively Blu-Ray. JB Hi-Fi's decision-maker in this regard said he is not in the habit of selling thousand-dollar clocks. Which is a pretty accurate summation of how well-handled HD-DVD's release in Australia really has been.

SatStorm: You will have to pardon me for taking such an outspoken stance in the whole thing. I see technophobia at least twice daily where I am, and it is pretty ugly. Once, whilst in a Blockbuster store, I had to explain to another customer why nothing was coming out on VHS anymore. By the time I was finished listing all of the artefacts inherent to VHS that you never see on an S-Video TV in any size connected to a DVD player, the whole store was watching us with some interest. My mistake was in assuming I was going to be in a similar argument.

When I watched DVDs of the SD variety on my old 80cm CRT, the one artefact that bothered me more than any other was aliasing. The prospect that there might one day be a format that can be displayed progressively on a compatible set had me drooling on myself in excitement. Now that it is here, regardless of any limitation that may or may not exist on my present equipment, I am a happy lad.

This time two years ago, plasmas were completely unaffordable for me, so I would propose a third option. The displays that are unquestionably capable of displaying a 1080I/P signal fall in price until Joe Average can afford them, and Joe Average starts to buy them. Once that starts happening, people will begin to expect quite a lot more of their displays. That is, after all, what happened in the first place with DVD.

[MozartMan]

Retailers do not give two craps if one player is cheaper than the other if that player does not have sufficient content being made for it. You only sell one player per household when the players are around AU$999. It is the discs the customer keeps coming back for. And of the films either expected or already there on a high-def format, Blu-Ray outnumbers HD-DVD more than 3:1.

Yeah, 3:1

[FulciLives]

Well according to the Fry's website they have all of 34 stores so ... I can't see how that is significant.

Unless their website is not listing all of their stores?

http://shop3.outpost.com/ac/storelocator

Count them. There are only 34 listed.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[lordsmurf]

Well according to the Fry's website they have all of 34 stores so ... I can't see how that is significant. Unless their website is not listing all of their stores?
http://shop3.outpost.com/ac/storelocator Count them. There are only 34 listed.
- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Remember the dollars are what get added, not the number of locations.

[FulciLives]

Well to me HD-DVD is to DVD-R as Blu-Ray is to DVD+R

I want HD-DVD to win.

I'm tired of "rogue" groups/companies doing what they want for the hell of it.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

[Nilfennasion]

Allow me to clarify: what I meant was that of the titles I want in HD (RoboCop being the one that will decide it as far as I am concerned, and it is expected on Blu-Ray), Blu-Ray has three times as many.

By the way, Fulci, the Blu-Ray format is not a case of rogue companies going off to do what they felt like. Nor was +R, entirely. +R is the only reason we have dual-layer burners, discs that burn at more than 1x-speed, or even burner drives to begin with. The DVD "Forum" would have kept us with set-top recorders if they could have.

Blu-Ray is a case of Sony deciding that knuckling under and doing what one other vested interest wanted for the sake of marketing was not in the best interests of either the market or the manufacturer. And apparently four studios are already wholly convinced they are correct. When I look at formats that are designed with the future in mind, compatibility with present manufacturing equipment is not what I look for. But that is apparently what HD-DVD's supporters thought we wanted.

The DVD "Forum" crapped in their own nests for long enough that alternatives have a very advantageous position. Blu-Ray is not a case of Sony going against the consumer but rather understanding what the consumer really wants.

[lordsmurf]

format is not a case of rogue companies going off to do what they felt like. Nor was +R, entirely.

Yes, DVD+R was a rogue format. They simply did not want to pay royalties. It was that simple. In the end, both sides "lost" due to multi-format burners.

, discs that burn at more than 1x-speed, or even burner drives to begin with. The DVD "Forum" would have kept us with set-top recorders if they could have.

Ummmm... no. Like other optical media, "x" speeds would have risen with time. The first DVD-R(G) burners were 2x, and those existed almost two years before DVD+R did. Set top recorders largely came later, especially in non-Asian markets. DVD burners were long in the making, with DVD-RAM, DVD-R(A) and DVD-R(G). The RW Alliance sat on their hands for quite a while, piddling around with various formats, some of which WERE NOT COMPATIBLE AT ALL with DVD-ROM/DVD-Video. Don't be a revisionist with your history.

+R is the only reason we have dual-layer burners

DVD Forum started earlier, but I'll agree the RW Alliance pulled through on this one. Credit where credit is due.

The DVD "Forum" crapped in their own nests for long enough

Examples? I don't know of any. Maybe DVD-VR, but that's just nitpicking.

Blu-Ray is not a case of Sony going against the consumer but rather understanding what the consumer really wants.

I doubt it. Sony has never done what the consumer at large wanted, they did their own proprietary crap for decades now. Consumers in general don't give a flying flip about HD discs. Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will "lose" for that fact alone. This is another CED-vs-Laserdisc or SVHS-vs-SuperBeta war, with a battlefield of only a dozen soldiers each.

[Nilfennasion]

Toshiba keep calling themselves the company that invented DVD-Video in the same commercials they boast "getting rid of the black lines on widescreen movies" (their words) as an asset rather than a liability. Since they pulled that stunt, not a single Toshiba product has entered my home. That is an example of the DVD "Forum" (and I use those quotes because a forum implies communication, which is anything but what occurs among the Consortium) and how it treats the consumer.

Maybe the first consumer burners weren't quite that slow, but they would not be the speed they are at now if not for competition with the RW Alliance. For years after I acquired my first burner, burning speeds for Forum media were at least 2X behind RW Alliance media, at least where drive ratings were concerned. And even now, there is only one format group that meets expectations when I put a 16X-speed disc in a drive capable of 18X-speed. It ain't a Forum format, that's for certain.

In fact, having been in the same room with people from the Forum, they are such complete pricks to the consumer that I would donate to the RW Alliance to keep them alive. Just to spite the Forum.

And honestly, which "consumers in general" are you talking about? Because the mouth-breather I met at Blockbuster who thought he was getting more picture on VHS is not "consumers in general". Nor are 50-year old Volvo Drivers who will be genuinely surprised when their analogue sets stop displaying free-to-air signals. Hell, my dad will be 55 soon, and he cares very much about how much better HD discs look on the right screen. I would guesstimate that a lot more people care than you are ready to admit to, because the sales of one title on Blu-Ray alone for the last 8 to 12 months are better than the top ten were on DVD-Video for the first 36 months of the format's life.

Not to mention that as old-agers who can remember when TV was still monochrome die out, a new generation will grow up expecting more from their sets. Hell, I talk to eighteen year olds now who are unable to comprehend that computers with processors of less than 10 MHz helped put men on the moon. People do not hold onto analogue interlaced video when progressive digital solutions exist. I tend to prefer the latter simply because it does not make my eyes water and give me a headache. Even "consumers in general" know that a feature film's fine lines are not supposed to strobe and flicker whenever the camera is in motion.

[serega]

Microsoft to drop Xbox360 HD DVD price


http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/Microsoft-to-drop-Xbox360-HD-DVD-price.html

May be this will help.............