Which kind of XP machine needed for lossless VHS capture

[Busty]

Hey everyone,

I'm - like so many others obviously - seeking for a way to capture my VHS tapes. I did some research and tests on my Apple G4 MDD and settled for a MiroMotion DC30+, and while I really like the picture quality, I am struggling with video/audio sync. It's not an issue resulting from dropped frames.

I read a bit - mostly in this forum - and got the impression that virtualdub's possibility to maintain sync is what I need. (I can't find a similar tool for my vintage mac.) I've read about an option in virtualdub that is called "resample audio dynamically", which helps keeping the media in sync. Since most of the videos I will digitize are concert recordings, this option is not satisfactory for me, I don't want to add any more fluctuation to the sound. But I also read that there is a similar option that is altering the video to keep it in sync, something like "sync video by adjusting video timing".

This, and lordsmurf's suggestion to get captures done on a Windows XP machine (since with them the ATI AIWs work) makes me think I might need to try that.

What kind of machine would I need for that? How fast does the processor need to be? Or am I maybe still missing something here?

If anyone has some suggestions as to what i could do on a PPC mac to get rid of sync issues I'd love to hear them, too

Thanks for listening / reading

[Darryl In Canada]

I built an XP machine to run an ATI AIW 9600XT. In restrospect, you can simply use an ATI TV Wonder 600 USB (aka ATI 600) on a Windows 7 desktop and that will be must easier to source and probably cheaper.

If you go the XP route, these specs are more than enough if you build one yourself:

ASRock 4CoreDual-SATA2
Core 2 Duo E7500
2 x Kingston kvr800d2n5/2g (4GB in all)
HDD: 2TB, 7500 rpm (for data)
HDD: 1 TB, 7500 rpm (OS)
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz TB400

Alternatively, if you absolutely need a Windows XP machine with a motherboard with an AGP slot, try the Dell Optiplex GX260, which was released in 2007 and seems to be the last Dell model to include an AGP low profile on its mobo. The next one they made, the GX280, doesn’t have AGP slot. The earlier model, GX240, has it, but the CPU is a bit slower. But I don't think that will matter. So, bottom line, look for a Dell Optiplex GX260 or GX240.

[Busty]

Thank you, that's useful input. Although upon a first search, I couldn't find any ATI TV Wonder 600 USB for sale right now. And I would still need to get a windows machine

But you gave me some numbers to work with. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

It's funny sometimes, after posting this question, I started to check some other possibilities with different software and hardware that I didn't think of before. "MyVCR" was the only capture app that I used all the time, so I first start checking out FinalCutPro, Adobe Premiere and BTV. I also have a Panasonic AG-7350 that I have to dig out and check if I can get the external sync to work.

I'll be back...

[manono]

You don't need an XP machine to capture losslessly.

[Sharc]

You don't need an XP machine to capture losslessly.

+1

[lollo]

+2

[Busty]

thanks, yeah, but that's not the issue. The issue is the audio drift, and my hope would be that virtualdub can be set up to counteract that. For that I would need a windows machine. And assuming I go that route, I could just pick up one running XP and putting in an ATI AIW card.

But right now I'm doing more tests with a 2 hour capture of a concert with my mac setup which ideally will help me make up my mind.

[jagabo]

The issue is the audio drift, and my hope would be that virtualdub can be set up to counteract that. For that I would need a windows machine.

But VirtualDub will do that by adding duplicates (to slow the video), or removing frames (to speed up the video). The result will be jerky video.

[Busty]

But VirtualDub will do that by adding duplicates (to slow the video), or removing frames (to speed up the video). The result will be jerky video.

ok, that's interesting, I didn't know that. Then I'd rather stay on my system. Thanks for pointing that out, this helps a lot to decide which way to go!

[themaster1]

You invest on hdmi gear a sony dvd recorder rdr hxd (with line tbc/proc amp) and a pcie hdmi card. You skip XP altogether just like i do. Audio drift should be limited, there can be an audio offset though. That's my advice

[Busty]

I think I sorted out the audio drift part. In short, I think it's just a mismatch between analog playback speed and digital frame speed. I'll go deeper into that in a dedicated thread. Thanks everyone for the input, it did help me to figure out that this is not the route to go for me.

[lordsmurf]

I think I sorted out the audio drift part. In short, I think it's just a mismatch between analog playback speed and digital frame speed. I'll go deeper into that in a dedicated thread. Thanks everyone for the input, it did help me to figure out that this is not the route to go for me.

Lack of frame TBC is what causes this. You need the external frame TBC.

[Alwyn]

Try an audio-sync test with AmarecTV. My AmarecTV setup guide here.

[rgr]

Since most of the videos I will digitize are concert recordings, this option is not satisfactory for me, I don't want to add any more fluctuation to the sound.

Well, I think most devices/software work this way -- if not explicitly then implicitly
You can also use AverMedia ER330, which records video in VFR and I suspect does not recompress audio. Although it also has its drawbacks.

[dellsam34]

You invest on hdmi gear a sony dvd recorder rdr hxd (with line tbc/proc amp) and a pcie hdmi card. You skip XP altogether just like i do. Audio drift should be limited, there can be an audio offset though. That's my advice

The issue with HDMI is finding a device that can convert Y-C to HDMI in compliant of the SD standard, Most devices are cheap chinese cr@p that are for display purposes only and usually output 480p/720p with wrong levels and aspect ratio. Even the brand name HDMI scalers from back in the day are for display purposes only with some built in overscan, This leaves very few choices such as a DVD recorder with HDMI out set to 480i/576i, Transferring lossless HDMI stream should not be an issue but must find a device that is not built in an encoder chip as most of them are.

[themaster1]

[QUOTE=dellsam34;2773150]

Most devices are cheap chinese cr@p that are for display purposes only and usually output 480p/720p with wrong levels and aspect ratio. Even the brand name HDMI scalers from back in the day are for display purposes only with some built in overscan,

That's what i use (exactly this model/revision), it support 480i/576i so called "C.N crap" i don't complain. All i'm sayin' is: it works and rather good (3-4 years i have it)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyfMCphXXqk

And for the record : i don't use OBS

[dellsam34]

Like I said streaming (a.k.a capturing) HDMI to PC was never the issue, it's the analog to HDMI part that is usually problematic and chinese analog to HDMI devices won't cut it.

[Alwyn]

I'd like to know what gadget you're using, Dellsam, for ""capturing HDMI to PC was never an issue", because I've found what Themaster says: easy to get a good SD to HDMI conversion with a DVD recorder (many types, Pioneer, Panasonic outputting interlaced SD) but harder to find a good HDMI>USB device.

[Busty]

ups, I didn't realize this thread is still going on. Nice

Lack of frame TBC is what causes this. You need the external frame TBC.

I might be wrong, but I don't think this is the case here.

I used an AVT-8710 for the capture of a 2 hour concert video into a MiroMotion DC30+ and Final Cut Pro 5 to capture. FCP5 was set to abort when a dropped frame occurs, so I know that capture does not have dropped frames. Still, at the end the audio was about half a second faster. To verify, I did a different capture with a Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle Thunderbolt and the AVT-8710, the capture program (forgot the name atm) was also set to stop on dropped frames. The audio was in sync until the end. Frame count on both captures was identical, but apparently audio was at a different speed for both captures.

My first conclusion to this is that Blackmagic somehow alters the audio to stay in sync. I might ask them about that in the coming weeks to be sure about that. Maybe someone here knows sonething about that already?

My second conclusion is that my VCR (Panasonic NV-FS88) is an ever so tiny bit faster playing back than 25fps. So the TBC processes the incoming frames a tiny bit faster, too. Final Cut Pro takes all the frames and defines 25 frames to fit into exactly one second, no matter that they came in a bit faster. That leaves untouched audio a bit too fast.

I did some captures before and I always had this small drift, and it was always exactly the same drift. I record audio with 96000 Hz, but the speed in sync always is 95994 Hz. I captured audio on a different machine than video back then, always the same drift. That's another hint that Final Cut Pro does not alter audio but Blackmagic does.

If someone sees an error in my reasoning, please let me know.

[Busty]

Try an audio-sync test with AmarecTV. My AmarecTV setup guide here.

Thanks, but I'm still capturing on a PPC Mac, so no way to test that.

The part in the description about dropped / inserted frames to keep audio in sync sounds like a feature, but my goal would be to have a capture without dropped or inserted frames. Or did I misunderstand something there?

Still thanks for the information!

[rgr]

The issue is the audio drift, and my hope would be that virtualdub can be set up to counteract that. For that I would need a windows machine.

But VirtualDub will do that by adding duplicates (to slow the video), or removing frames (to speed up the video). The result will be jerky video.

But only if you set it that way.
VDub is still the best choice for capture.

[rgr]

xxx

[Busty]

VirtualDub will do that by adding duplicates (to slow the video), or removing frames (to speed up the video). The result will be jerky video.

But only if you set it that way.
VDub is still the best choice for capture.

I capture lossless without modifications. What is the advantage of VirtualDub capturing, in comparison to Final Cut Pro or any other application that can do that?

As far as I understand it atm, it seems as if I can either set it up to stay in sync but have either audio or frame alterations, or I can leave any resyncing features alone and have a drift.

Or can you describe a way to set it up, staying in sync without dropping or inserting frames and without changing the speed of the audio?
I will try a different VCR and see about drift with that one.

[rgr]

My last settings that worked properly.

[Spektre]

I built an XP machine to run an ATI AIW 9600XT. In restrospect, you can simply use an ATI TV Wonder 600 USB (aka ATI 600) on a Windows 7 desktop and that will be must easier to source and probably cheaper.

If you go the XP route, these specs are more than enough if you build one yourself:

ASRock 4CoreDual-SATA2
Core 2 Duo E7500
2 x Kingston kvr800d2n5/2g (4GB in all)
HDD: 2TB, 7500 rpm (for data)
HDD: 1 TB, 7500 rpm (OS)
Turtle Beach Santa Cruz TB400

Alternatively, if you absolutely need a Windows XP machine with a motherboard with an AGP slot, try the Dell Optiplex GX260, which was released in 2007 and seems to be the last Dell model to include an AGP low profile on its mobo. The next one they made, the GX280, doesn’t have AGP slot. The earlier model, GX240, has it, but the CPU is a bit slower. But I don't think that will matter. So, bottom line, look for a Dell Optiplex GX260 or GX240.

Even early builds of Windows 10 are compatible with the USB 600 devices.

[lordsmurf]

My last settings that worked properly.

If you disable either of the top two checkboxes, all that accomplishes is disabling accurate dropped/inserted frame reporting. So it "doesn't drop" because it is blind to it. "If I close my eyes, you can't see me!" or "Stop testing!" (2020). Absence of data doesn't mean absence of issue.

Unchecking to the top box induces inserts. If inserts also not allowed (either or all, or quickly), then the outcome is audio desync.

Those options never should have existed. It was made for a smarter era in capturing, with different hardware choices.