VHS Capture via Canon HV40

[Traderbam]

Hi, I have an old VCR which I am using to capture some VHS footage. I have an old Canon HV40 which has a 3.5 input jack for A/V which allows me to connect the VCR. The HV40 has a built-in Analogue to Digital converter which I can then capture the footage via WinDV on the PC via firewire connection.

Is this a reasonable setup or is there any way I can optimise the process? WinDV generates AVI files at 720x576.

[lordsmurf]

No, that is not going to work well, or at all.
It compresses down to DV, and lack of TBCs in the workflow will likely be an issue.

And that's not even addressing possible aspect ratio issues, need to check notes.

[Traderbam]

Hi, it works in the sense that I have an avi file in 720v576 that I can deinterlace with Staxrip then edit etc. but keen to understand if there are any better options in terms of 1) the capture device itself at the VCR end 2) the AV to DV conversion step or 3) anything else.

I'm not wanting to throw $1000s at hardware but if there are smaller scale optimisations in the process I'd be keen to learn more. There is so much conflicting info out there, and many of the cheap devices seem to export straight to .mp4 with lower res.

[Bwaak]

This will work just fine. You'll get your video digitized into an industry-standard DV format that will be supported for years to come.

You will need a cable with TRRS plug with LVGR pinout. Just switch DV->AV mode on, and connect the camcorder to a computer via Firewire. This will not work for capturing Macrovision-protected tapes, the camcorder will deny to digitize such a video, but I am not sure how much Macrovision was popular in Europe.

Whether you will need a TBC or not is another matter. If your tapes are in decent condition, and you don't mind slight wiggling of the picture, then you can do without a TBC.

Standalone converters usually save into something like deinterlaced AVC in MP4, but most members of this forum do not use standalone boxes, they use A/D converters that output uncompressed video, then store the video in a lossless or visually lossless codec of their choice.

P.S. Congrats on having the HV40, probably the best consumer-grade HDV camcorder. Although for a 50 Hz version the differences between the HV20, HV30 and HV40 are minute.

[lordsmurf]

Hi, it works in the sense that I have an avi file in 720v576 that I can deinterlace with Staxrip then edit etc. but keen to understand if there are any better options in terms of 1) the capture device itself at the VCR end 2) the AV to DV conversion step or 3) anything else.
I'm not wanting to throw $1000s at hardware

Yes, there are better options. But it costs money. It's a typical situation of "you get what you pay for". A penny of hardware, get a penny of quality. A dollar/pound of hardware, gets a dollar/pound of quality. (Note: Always exceptions. Overpriced crap exists, such as a ClearClicks and Blackmagic cards.)

but if there are smaller scale optimisations in the process I'd be keen to learn more. There is so much conflicting info out there, and many of the cheap devices seem to export straight to .mp4 with lower res.

DV adds blocks, reduces color. It's better, but only about halfway between that "MP4" (heavily compressed H.264, often deinterlaced), and the ideael lossless methods. Even direct to MPEG is arguably better than DV, as it has options at BD and broadcast depths.

an industry-standard DV format .

It was never "industry standard", but a "consumer standard" in the 1990s. The industry begrudgingly put up with it, in certain scenarios only. By the 2000s, it was obsolete, and good riddance.

This will not work for capturing Macrovision-protected tapes, the camcorder will deny to digitize such a video, but I am not sure how much Macrovision was popular in Europe.

Macrovision was worldwide.
MV was merely an artificial video error, and natural errors have identical effects. So it's misleading to state that tapes are fine, unless Macrovision. Because it's essentially the same issues.

Whether you will need a TBC or not is another matter. If your tapes are in decent condition, and you don't mind slight wiggling of the picture, then you can do without a TBC.

"decent condition" is not the metric to determine when TBC is used, or not used. That's a meaningless phrase.

Lack of TBC does not result in "slight wiggle". For starters, that is only addressing line/field TBC, not frame. Audio sync issues, dropped frames, are the typical signal issues. The visual issues are all sorts of motion issues, signal drop issues.

Standalone converters usually save into something like deinterlaced AVC in MP4, but most members of this forum do not use standalone boxes, they use A/D converters that output uncompressed video, then store the video in a lossless or visually lossless codec of their choice.

Correct.

P.S. Congrats on having the HV40, probably the best consumer-grade HDV camcorder. Although for a 50 Hz version the differences between the HV20, HV30 and HV40 are minute

Yep, it was a fine camera in its day.
But it simply was not great at trying to use to convert analog signals, nor was any other DV camera. It wasn't designed for that purpose. That was an "also has" sort of extra feature that was very hit-or-miss.

[Traderbam]

Thanks all, I need to do some digging. This isn't for business purposes, but I'm the sort of person that wants to do it right, or as best as I can without having to re-do it all in a years time if I'd just researched it better.

I've looked at some of the thread with specific VCR recommendations but not hopefully that many of these are available. Would a better VCR be a benefit over my current HV40 A->D process or would upgrading the VCR be a waste of time if the A->D element itself is a poor option?

For the A->D part are there any better hardward options that are still readily available? What about the firewire capture generally for my Hi8 or miniDV tapes - is Firewire fine here or can I get a better source file using some other means?

[lordsmurf]

Thanks all, I need to do some digging. This isn't for business purposes, but I'm the sort of person that wants to do it right, or as best as I can without having to re-do it all in a years time if I'd just researched it better.

It has nothing to do with "business purposes", merely quality concerns.

Would a better VCR be a benefit over my current HV40 A->D process

Yes, extremely likely, S-VHS VCR with line TBC, certain models. Be aware that eBay is not where you buy quality VCRs. For PAL, VCRshop.

For the A->D part are there any better hardward options that are still readily available?

Yes, but card chosen depends on factors, such as OS (noting that WinXP/7 best, 10/11 worst).

What about the firewire capture generally for my Hi8 or miniDV tapes - is Firewire fine here or can I get a better source file using some other means?

MiniDV probably fine.
Hi8 needs good Hi1 cam with line TBC, quite a few to choose from.

[lollo]

Would a better VCR be a benefit over my current HV40 A->D process or would upgrading the VCR be a waste of time if the A->D element itself is a poor option?

The player is the most important element in the capture chain. A high-end S-VHS VCR with Y/C output and (line)TBC correction is recommended. Whatever the other devices in the chain are.

For the A->D part are there any better hardward options that are still readily available?

For best quality, analog should be captured YUV 4:2:2 lossless. In addition, when a restoration is needed (even a simple masking of the head switching noise from tapes), a lossless compressed file is more adequate than a DV file, because it gives a better quality, avoiding DV compression (in the source) and decompression (while restoring).

On the other hand, DV flow is an easier approach for consumer analog conversion with a small (but present) loss of quality compared to lossless, and may fit some needs.

The simple and best workflow for analog capture is always the same: a player as above and one of the recommended capture card (such as I/OData GV-USB, Hauppauge USB-Live 2, ATI USB 600, Pinnacle USB 710 (the first 2 work flawless in Windows 10).
If the tapes are in bad shape add a specific DVD-Recorder in pass-through mode or a (frame)TBC.
Capture YUV 4:2:2 lossless at 720x576 (PAL) or 720x480 (NTSC) with AmarecTV or VirtualDub.

[Traderbam]

Thanks both, need to look into sourcing decent VCRs in the UK.

I suspect one of those capture cards will really help even on my Hi8 exports. Firewire out on the Hi8 camcorder is broken, so I've had to go component out on the hi8, to av-in on the HV40 via the built-in A->D conversion which is probably less optimal than going direct from Hi8 camera to a decent capture card.

Sounds like some optimisation can be done to the worklow. A much higher proportion of my task will be hi8 compared to VHS, and with few modern PCs having firewire capability a switch to the likes of GV-USB could be a good option.

Food for thought.

[lordsmurf]

I suspect one of those capture cards will really help

You have to be really careful here. If you shop by model number alone, it may actually be the wrong card.

Hauppauge and Pinnacle recycle model numbers, usually due to long production, with changes along the way. There are multiple versions of many of their cards. Some are noted by revisions, some are not. Some are hidden sub-versions, with different chips, or at least different on-chip software.

They have different properties, and working with various OS can heavily vary based on factors. This is why I never give generic advice, but advice tailored to specific use cases.

[lollo]

There are no evidence of any change in Hauppauge USB-Live 2: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/406066-What-is-best-capture-device/page3#post2660444

Same hardware since long time: https://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Hauppauge_USB-Live-2

If someone has any proof of change, report here

[Bwaak]

For the A->D part are there any better hardward options that are still readily available? What about the firewire capture generally for my Hi8 or miniDV tapes - is Firewire fine here or can I get a better source file using some other means?

Firewire is the standard connectivity protocol to transfer DV and HDV, but some camcorders can send DV over USB as well.

If your Digital8 camcorder has built-in TBC, you are 95% there: you get stable picture and a decent well-supported codec. Too bad the HV40 does not have SVideo input. Replacing the HV40 with a dedicated A/D converter and capturing into uncompressed will deliver marginal improvement if any.

[lordsmurf]

For the A->D part are there any better hardward options that are still readily available? What about the firewire capture generally for my Hi8 or miniDV tapes - is Firewire fine here or can I get a better source file using some other means?

Firewire is the standard connectivity protocol to transfer DV and HDV, but some camcorders can send DV over USB as well.
If your Digital8 camcorder has built-in TBC, you are 95% there: you get stable picture and a decent well-supported codec. Too bad the HV40 does not have SVideo input. Replacing the HV40 with a dedicated A/D converter and capturing into uncompressed will deliver marginal improvement if any.

4:2:2 lossless vs. 4:2:0 DV (PAL) may not be "marginal". It is much better than 4:1:1 NTSC loss, but still loss.

My main question is how well does the HDV camcorder handle 4:3 aspect? That can get messy. Whatever I know about NTSC here may be immaterial, as the PAL version gear often changes. I don't want to assume aspect is correct on the PAL. I don't know this off-hand. Research it. But again, not the best method. But cheap.

In the 2020s, the 1990s DV codec is not as "well-supported" as it was decades ago. Modern software is dropping support for it, retaining lossless, MPEG, H.264, and new codecs.

[Alwyn]

In the 2020s, the 1990s DV codec is not as "well-supported" as it was decades ago. Modern software is dropping support for it

Example?

[dellsam34]

Just hope Microsoft keeps their support for firewire devices, I believe in early Win 10 versions the detection of DV devices is active by default, after few versions of Win 10 and in Win 11 the feature is dormant, it has to be activated, At least according to what I have read here, I suspect in Win 12 they will pull the plug on firewire/DV.

[Alwyn]

According to David Knarr here:

https://www.studio1productions.com/Articles/Firewire-1.htm

Firewire support has actually improved with Win 11 provided you have a VIA card. I have ordered one so I will see. My Startech TI card is very flaky on Win 11.

[Traderbam]

If I focus on my 8mm camcorder tapes for now as this is the scenario I will do more of.

Camcorder is Sony DCR-TR7000E. I saw a list somewhere that said it had a switchable TBC but I've seen nothing in the menu to suggest this exists. As of now I have no other way to capture from this device other than go via the HV40 A-D converter. The DV out is either broken or else I need Sony-specific 1394 drivers (which I cannot find). When I used this camera many years back I think it was the VidCap tool that was part of Sony Vegas that utilised the DV out.

I've tried a test capture this evening and the resulting AVI files via the HV40 show the following info (in VLC) - see attached image.

It looks like I get 4:2:0 YUV at 720x576. This probably tell the true story of quality given any loss that is inevitable going via the HV40.

Given this info, what considerations do I need to make around TBCs or capture cards. Is there any benefit since I don't typical do much color work afterwards (although I'd like to learn more on this process). Is it daft to consider a capture card like ATI/Hauppage etc, without a standalone TBC? Could both together demonstrate huge benefits? I suppose the benefit of a standalone TBC would be that it could come in useful in VHS scenarios (since my current VCR is basic).

With the current setup I'll do a deinterlace with Staxtip (QTGMC) then pull it into resolve to clip/cut.

[Bwaak]

Camcorder is Sony DCR-TR7000E. I saw a list somewhere that said it had a switchable TBC but I've seen nothing in the menu to suggest this exists.

User's manual?

As of now I have no other way to capture from this device other than go via the HV40 A-D converter. The DV out is either broken or else I need Sony-specific 1394 drivers (which I cannot find).

Have you tried sending DV to the HV40?

I've tried a test capture this evening and the resulting AVI files via the HV40 show the following info (in VLC) - see attached image. It looks like I get 4:2:0 YUV at 720x576. This probably tell the true story of quality given any loss that is inevitable going via the HV40.

PAL DV is 4:2:0 (unless it is DVCPRO), so this is perfectly normal.

Given this info, what considerations do I need to make around TBCs or capture cards.

There is no other way to play 8-mm tapes than in a 8-mm camcorder. If its DV port works, then capturing to DV is easy, although maybe not as easy as you would have to record on tape onto the HV40 first, then capture off the HV40. Or you can capture via SVideo into a codec of your choice. In the late 1990s trasferring DV via SVideo was par for the course.

[Traderbam]

Nothing mentioned in the Sony TR7000 manual about TBCs so if anything exists it is unpublished.

HV40 only has one DV port which I always assumed was output only. Assuming that is used for input, then how do I simultaneously output to PC? Is this where I'd need to use the A/V terminal or HDMI-out to some capture card?

I guess the simplest question is, if I get a Hauppage or similar, do I gain much from having access to a YUV 4:2:2 lossless file, assuming I can go directly from Tr7000E via the s-video/rca outputs?

[lollo]

Is there any benefit since I don't typical do much color work afterwards (although I'd like to learn more on this process)

A better capture with proper devices will require less post-processing, which is always better.

Is it daft to consider a capture card like ATI/Hauppage etc, without a standalone TBC?

Could both together demonstrate huge benefits?

If your tapes and in good shape and because you have a (line)TBC in your player you may not need a (frame)TBC with one of the recommended card. Start simple, and eventually insert additional devices later if needed.

I suppose the benefit of a standalone TBC would be that it could come in useful in VHS scenarios (since my current VCR is basic).

For VHS the same applies: high-end S-VHS player with Y/C output and (line)TBC -> one of the recommended cards. Or a good VCR with a specific DVD-R Recorder in pass-thorugh mode. If needed add a (frame)TBC (always useful because the case of pristine tapes is rare, but it introduces a lossy A/D and D/A conversion, which can be avoided if the device is not needed).

With the current setup I'll do a deinterlace with Staxtip (QTGMC) then pull it into resolve to clip/cut.

If you plan no state-of-the-art color correction you may not need Resolve, and not even a GUI like StaxRip, but just a basic AviSynth script and a command line for encoding if you are familiar with it.

All this if you are not happy with your DV flow, otherwise stay there

[Traderbam]

Thanks all, I will look for a Hauppage USB-Live2 to start (I/O GV-USB seems harder to get in europe unless I'm missing something) unless the others like ATI or Pinnacle offer other benefits, then can check out the lossless capture to see how that looks. Can add other solutions into the mix if required later.

I'm not afraid of a bit of scripting if necessary but it means a whole new world to learn! Any useful reading material on what steps I should be considering beyond a QTGMC deinterlace?

[Bwaak]

HV40 only has one DV port which I always assumed was output only. Assuming that is used for input, then how do I simulatenously output to PC? Is this where I'd need to use the A/V terminal or HDMI-out to some capture card?

If I had just a handful of Digital8 tapes, and the Firewire port worked on the Sony, I would record them onto MiniDV tape using the HV40 over Firewire, then would capture it off the HV40 over Firewire. For analog 8-mm tapes I would use SVideo output. Too bad the camcorder does not have a TBC, you may need one... or not, depending on the condition of the tapes and whether you mind minor jitter.

[lollo]

Any useful reading material on what steps I should be considering beyond a QTGMC deinterlace?

Alwin linked some generic guide here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/378183-8mm-restoration-script-question/page2#post2690455

Before deinterlacing, you have to understand the nature of your video (fields architecture, levels, histograms, etc...)

[Traderbam]

HV40 only has one DV port which I always assumed was output only. Assuming that is used for input, then how do I simulatenously output to PC? Is this where I'd need to use the A/V terminal or HDMI-out to some capture card?

If I had just a handful of Digital8 tapes, and the Firewire port worked on the Sony, I would record them onto MiniDV tape using the HV40 over Firewire, then would capture it off the HV40 over Firewire. For analog 8-mm tapes I would use SVideo output. Too bad the camcorder does not have a TBC, you may need one... or not, depending on the condition of the tapes and whether you mind minor jitter.

Cool, I must take a look at that option to write to the HV40 tapes - I did that many years back for some reason but don't remember how or why!

Tapes are a mix of digital 8 and analogue.

[Alwyn]

If I had just a handful of Digital8 tapes, and the Firewire port worked on the Sony, I would record them onto MiniDV tape using the HV40 over Firewire, then would capture it off the HV40 over Firewire.

I don't see the logic in that. The 7000E has DV out, just like the Hv40. The 7000E does not require any special capture software so the flow wouldn't require the HV40 at all. But the FW port on the 7000E is broken (post 9), so this is all irrelevant.

The AV>DV workflow through the HV40 is an option. However, the HV40 does not have S-Video In, only Composite, so the best workflow, IMO, will be 7000E>S-video>USB digitiser. As Lollo says, add a TBC-like box if necessary.

[Skiller]

My two cents, if you are going to go the DV route for the analog tapes, do use a camcorder with S-Video in.
Most Sony MiniDV and Digital8 camcorders have that, and, from my experience, can cope surprisingly well with wonky analog signals even when used without an additional external TBC. I would not use the Canon HV40 for this task.

Actually, since you pretty much need another Digital8 camcorder with working Firewire for the D8 tapes anyways, you may want to look into getting a Sony Digital8 camcorder and use that also for the analog tapes via S-Video in. Just make sure you get a model that has direct "AV -> DV" passthrough. Some models require recording to digital tape first.

[Alwyn]

Also,

Just make sure you get a model that

plays Video8 and VideoHi8 tapes. Not all Digital 8 camcorders do.

[Bwaak]

If I had just a handful of Digital8 tapes, and the Firewire port worked on the Sony, I would record them onto MiniDV tape using the HV40 over Firewire, then would capture it off the HV40 over Firewire.

I don't see the logic in that. The 7000E has DV out, just like the Hv40. The 7000E does not require any special capture software so the flow wouldn't require the HV40 at all. But the FW port on the 7000E is broken (post 9), so this is all irrelevant.

He said that either the FW port is broken, or the camcorder is not supported by his PC. Firewire devices need drivers, which may be news for you. So I suggested to test the FW port on the Sony by copying to the HV40.

The AV>DV workflow through the HV40 is an option. However, the HV40 does not have S-Video In, only Composite, so the best workflow, IMO, will be 7000E>S-video>USB digitiser. As Lollo says, add a TBC-like box if necessary.

I agree with that. If one is not wedded to DV as the target format, this would be the best option. I mentioned this too.

[Alwyn]

He said that either the FW port is broken, or the camcorder is not supported by his PC.

They also said (in post 9):

Firewire out on the Hi8 camcorder is broken, so I've had to go component out on the hi8

Firewire devices need drivers, which may be news for you.

No, they do not. The PC has to have the Windows firewire driver installed to operate the IEEE1394 subsystem but each device does not have it's own drivers. I have an HV20, a TRV-110, a TRV130, TRV 330, a couple of Panasonic MiniDVs and a Canon normal mini DV, all working on Win 10 and not one device-specific driver has been installed for any of them.

Now, it is a possibility that the Windows Firewire driver isn't installed correctly; I assume that is not the case though because, allegedly, the HV40 connects OK.

[Bwaak]

Firewire devices need drivers, which may be news for you.

No, they do not. The PC has to have the Windows firewire driver installed to operate the IEEE1394 subsystem but each device does not have it's own drivers. I have an HV20, a TRV-110, a TRV130, TRV 330, a couple of Panasonic MiniDVs and a Canon normal mini DV, all working on Win 10 and not one device-specific driver has been installed for any of them.

Just because Windows did not ask you to provide the driver does not mean it did not install one behind the scenes. I know for a fact that the DV camcorders I have did require model-specific Firewire drivers, and some of them are not available anymore.