Are these VCR's Super VHS machines to use for playback?

[Cornucopia]

Good quality Chains:

Camera/VCR --Svideo-> TBC --Svideo-> DVcaptureBox --Firewire-> PC'sFirewirePort --> DV AVI

or

Camera/VCR --Svideo-> TBC --Svideo-> PC'sAnalogCaptureCard --> Lag/Huf AVI

Obviously, take out the TBC element if you don't truly need it for a given project/task.

I don't mention Component or Digital (HDMI, SDI, HD-SDI, Firewire), because nearly ALL consumer devices like the kind we're talking about don't have those.

Scott

[avz10]

Thanks for the responses.

Most of these are to confirm what we have said, but there are some uncertainties still..

The VCR "source" will therefore be the JVC HR-S8960 SVHS player.

The cable- that I still need to find!, will be



:





From the Canon to my PC (vie Firewire) and then capture.

BUT the role of a TBC- I am not sure that I will be able to afford a TBC and if it is useful for the work I want to do. At least the pruduct does not be broadquest quality

And then the capturing on the PC- I am OK with codecs, but what should the program be? WinDV; Virtualdub, or my Pinnacle??? but then I would not be able to capture as lossless.

Thanks

[NJRoadfan]

You need a cable like this: http://www.dcables.net/JVC_Everio_GZ-HD620_AV_Cable_32333.aspx

I have one from an old JVC Everio, the pin out is standard as it worked properly on both my Digital-8 Sony and Canon HV20. Honestly I would find another capture solution that has proper S-Video in.

[avz10]

Dear Roadfan

Following this thread, the advice has been to use the SVHS port.



With a cable like this:




Your suggestion is to use a RCA cable that would connect directly with my digital camcorder, or am I confused??



Any opinioin on this, as this seems to be against the theory that I have read.

Thanks

[danno78]

You can`t capture from S-Video vcr output because your Canon camcorder lack S-Video input. The cam can convert analog to digital only from composite sources. The last cable is the right. The image quality will be lower because camcorder comb filter is weak. The images below reveal the comb filter from Canon HV30:
first picture: Hi8 tapes converted by Sony TRV460E D8 camcorder


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
the second picture: same tape playback by Hi8 cam and converted by Canon HV30


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Hi8 tapes converted by Sony TRV460E D8 camcorder
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/35/d8hi81.png/

same tape playback by Hi8 cam and converted by Canon HV30
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/228/hv30hi81.png/

[avz10]

To get it clear then:

There is no benefit if I use a SVideo cable/connection to connect to my Canon as the luma/ chroma separation will not be used. I suppose that is right.

At this stage I cannot afford a TBC and a DVcaptureBox and I am not sure that it is worth it, since these are home videos- one wants the best, but this does not need to cost me an arm and a leg.

I will therefore need to use RCA cables?? See next posts, I am reconsidering)

So, my chain will be and please correct/ give different inputs:

SVHS VCR-> RCA cables-> Canon Legria HV 40 for DV conversion-> Firewire-> capture-DV AVI

So, there are no benefits then with this cable



via



to my Canon is used??

This is what my common sense say- as we are mixing chroma and luma again.

Then a last comment- I know a lot has been written about programmes to capture with-but what are these wise men saying?? WinDV, Virtualdub, my Premiere Pro??

Thanks for all the input
Albie

[avz10]

I thought again about the situation and started surfing the internet to find out more about capture boxes and TBC. A TBC is definately not in my budget, but I saw this on ebay and was unsure if this is a capture box. If not, what are good makes?

4 CHANNEL MINI USB DVR CAMERA VIDEO CCTV CAPTURE ADAPTER BOX CARD

[avz10]

Or are we talking about something like this: Canopus 77010150100 ADVC110 Converter- the price on Amazon is $200!

[Cornucopia]

Let's back up a bit and look at it from a "big picture" frame of reference.

Most of your source material is VHS/SVHS, right? (with maybe a little from your DV camera)
The DV camera stuff, you should capture via Firewire into a DV capture app (like WinDV) and you end up with a DV-AVI file. Done (unless you want to edit).

The VHS stuff you want to get onto the PC in as clean & high-quality as is (reasonably) possible. Bear in mind, you are starting with VHS.
So the simple path is either:

VHS -> cable -> DV CamPassthrough/DVConverterBox -> Firewire -> FirewirePort -> DV capture app (like WinDV) -> DV-AVI file

or:

VHS -> cable -> analog capture app ->  DV-AVI, or (Losslessly-compressed)-AVI file

The former you are stuck with DV as your choice of codecs, the latter, you may have options in the choice of your codec.

With the former, the "conversion" is not in your hands, it is done early on via hardware in either the DVcam or the DV converterbox. Once it is DV, it just travels down the Firewire and is "transferred" to a file, not converted in any way.
With the latter, the "conversion" is near the end, just after it has entered the PC and been converted from an analog into a digital signal. It is overseen by a capturing app that either also does the conversion itself, or enlists the aid of a converter helper app. The converted (and encoded/compressed) portion is then saved into an AVI file. You have much more control over this route (though not totally).

Neither of these scenarios make use of TBCs. If they did, it should only be because it was necessary to include it. And they would be placed 2nd in the chain, after the source and before the "conversion". Since you aren't sure about the necessity of a TBC and you can't afford it anyway right now, we'll skip that part.

So, your first decision is: Do you want to go with the former or the latter chain?
Go with the former if you - have a Firewire port (or can afford to add one) and have or are willing to get either the DVcam or DV converter box, and you don't want to have to worry about the settings too much, and you find the DV output from VHS input acceptable.
Go with the latter if you - don't have or don't intend to get a Firewire Port, and/or a DVcam or a DV converter box, and you want to tweak things to improve the quality BEYOND what DV is capable of, and you have enough extra drive space (as losslessly compressed or uncompressed is LARGER than DV compressed - which is lossy).

Sounds like you already have the DVcamera and the (S)VHS vcr. You still would need a Firewire port. Let's assume you've got one.
Now the choice is really which cabling to use between your vcr and your "converter". S-video is capable of better than composite (those are your 2 choices), but it doesn't necessarily follow that what your source tape has on it will be able to take advantage of the S-video connection.

If (as it looks) your DVcam with passthrough only accepts composite as an input, your choice is made for you unless you NEED better quality than it can deliver.

If you do already have all those other things, I would suggest you hook things up this way:
VCR ->composite cabling -> DVcamPassthrough -> Firewire -> firewirePort -> WinDV app -> DV-AVI file
If it works for you and you are happy with the quality, you are done.

Instances where S-video is clearly a better choice: if your source is SVHS tape instead of VHS tape. All others are not simple clear choices.
Depending upon the make & model, some S-video connections work WORSE than composite connections (herringbone, chroma delay artifacts).

What do you say to that?

Scott

[avz10]

Dear Scott

What a spot-on reply!

Yes, I have the following:
No S VHS cassettes
VHS-lots
DV cassettes

Hardware: S VHS machine, HDV Canon camera, Firewire.

Your chains are very clear and my options will be converting via the Canon or buy a capture box, of which I have no experience. What are the options, prizes, can one buy it on ebay, etc. i have read Canopus seems to begood.

Would very much like to hear your opinion on the last question!

kind regards

Albie

[Cornucopia]

Canopus boxes are ALL fine (AFAIK). This is reflected in the fact that used prices still are higher than one would expect of a used device - they hold their value.

But really, I would try out a few composite->DVcam captures and see if the quality is up to your expectations. If it is, why even go to the trouble of looking for another route?

Scott

edit: there are a few other boxes out on the market, some recent and even using a combo of DV+Analog capture with USB interface on the PC side, and they seem to be priced nicely, but can't comment on the quality of them never having used them.

[avz10]

You might know that I have a SVHS VCR as well as Firewire.

VCR ->composite cabling -> DVcamPassthrough -> Firewire -> firewirePort -> WinDV app -> DV-AVI file

I am not clear what the DVcamPassthrough is.


I can buy this relatively cheaply in South Africa, but I am not sure if this “DVcamPassthrough “is what you are talking about:


http://www.sybaritic.co.za/store/product_info.php?products_id=70346


If so, is there a way to connect this with my Firewire or should everything then installed and part of my PC?


Thanks for all the advice

[Cornucopia]

"DVcamPassThrough" just means that instead of a DV converter box, you can use SOME DV cameras, which also include analog inputs, as converters. This is NOT guaranteed, though, even when the analog inputs are available. Sometimes those inputs only allow one to "record to DV tape" the analog input. Some, though, specifically advertise being able to PASS-THROUGH the analog down the Firewire output LIVE, without having to record to tape first (of course it is converted to digital and encoded to the DV spec via the hardware DV codec in the camera. first).

When you mentioned you had, or showed a picture that I assumed you had, already a DV camcorder, I suggested the passthrough option. It may or may not be available for that particular model camera. Read the manual (it should clearly state the capability if it has it). If it has it, you might not need to buy ANYTHING.

That link you gave makes use of an analog capture card - the OTHER (non-DV/Firewire) chain option I suggested.

Scott

[avz10]

Apologies for all the questions!

That link you gave makes use of an analog capture card - the OTHER (non-DV/Firewire) chain option I suggested.

Camera/VCR --Svideo-> TBC --Svideo-> PC'sAnalogCaptureCard --> Lag/Huf AVI

Scott, please explain the practicalities-

1. If I install an analogue capture card, and capture the videos, they will obviously be analogue AVI as you mentioned in your chain, BUT the benefit of the S Video will be captured. Is ths correct?
2. How should I then proceed to convert to DV? Using what I have, should I then connect the computer with my Canon to convert to DV and capture via Firewire

Thanks for all the comments!!











Albie

[danno78]

If I install an analogue capture card, and capture the videos, they will obviously be analogue AVI as you mentioned in your chain, BUT the benefit of the S Video will be captured. Is ths correct?

Yes. With S-Video connection from JVC S-VHS recorder to capture card the signal travel through two 4 wires, luminance has his own cable and chrominante also.

How should I then proceed to convert to DV? Using what I have, should I then connect the computer with my Canon to convert to DV and capture via Firewire?

From VCR you need the cable from the last image in post #64. This is an cable with 3.5 mm jack with four pins and on the other side has 3 RCA connector, one yellow for video, and two whte and red for audio. From camcorder you need a firewire cable to PC. As for software DVIO and WinDV are free.

[avz10]

Thanks Danno

So, if we look at the analog AVI.

1. If I have captured my VHS tapes as analog AVI on the PC, it needs to travel from the PC to the Canon and I suppose that is by Firewire.
2. The Canon converts to DV. Now it needs to go back to the PC.
3. Will it then use the same Firewire cable to travel back to the PC to be saved as a DV AVI? Or do I need another connection?

Thanks!

[danno78]

To capture with your Canon HV you need:
1. 3.5 jack with 4 pin and on other end 3 RCA, one yellow. one white, one red
2. RCA adaptor female at both end 3 pcs
3. SCART to RCA cable
4. firewire cable, at one end with 4 pin (camcorder side). The other side fis for PC and can be 4 pin or 6 pin. Some firewire card have both type. Usually is with 6 pin.
I hope that the picture are more easy to read.

[Cornucopia]

Thanks Danno

So, if we look at the analog AVI.

1. If I have captured my VHS tapes as analog AVI on the PC, it needs to travel from the PC to the Canon and I suppose that is by Firewire.
2. The Canon converts to DV. Now it needs to go back to the PC.
3. Will it then use the same Firewire cable to travel back to the PC to be saved as a DV AVI? Or do I need another connection?

Thanks!

No, you don't get it yet.
You choose the dv type chain or you choose the analog type chain, not both. That is wasteful of your time and energy and could lead to further quality loss.
Also, avi (or any other mm container type) is ALWAYS digital. It is the capture/transfer path that is either analog or dv.

Scott

[avz10]

Thanks for that clear response. My cheapest option in South Africa seems to be the analog capture card.
But I will try to use the Canon first and see how the quality is. ( I have used it before- an old VHS (not S VHS) VCR-RCA cables- Canon- Firewire-PC), but have not gone that route with the "new" JVC S VHS machine.

Thanks
Albie

[danno78]

Some tests from DVD player with an Canon MiniDV camcorder in A/V In analogue pass-through mode.
First picture is with composite input. Dot crawl and rainbows are present. This kind of quality offer Canon HV40.
Second picture with S-Video. To bad that Canon lack S-Video input.
Click on picture for normal size.

[avz10]

Excellent experiment! So the choice is clear, I will not use my Canon!

What is everyone's opinion for my situation- I have the S JVS with DNR. Should I try to get hold of a Canopus convertere box (quite expensive) or a PC analog capture card?

[sanlyn]

The only analog capture cards worth looking for are the old ATI All-In-Wonders with AGP mounts. Good luck finding one. Most owners who still have a working model will likely keep it until it vaporizes. If you find one, you'll need a PC with an AGP add-on slot. They haven't been made for years, but you might find used ones on auction sites.

[Gibson's Squares]

Hey Danno, where did you get the testcard dvd? is there any for download?

[manono]

Never mind. Sorry.

[danno78]

Hey Danno, where did you get the testcard dvd? is there any for download?

http://www.videoessentials.com/DVD_NTSC.php

A free DVD with test pattern can be found here:
http://www.tvblink.com/i_dvd.html