Interlacing and field order problem

[Boklavdi]

Hello,

this is my first post here and would be interesting if any help could be expected. I'd be really happy.
It comes time that I'm editing some older video files that had been captured with my ex DV camera Panasonis SH60. I'm used to Sony Vegas which is not quite "friendly" oriented to those MTS files and causes crashes any time when importing more video MTS clips than let's say 15.

So I decided to firstly convert all MTS files to MP4 which is convenient and good enough to use in Sony Vegas (1920x1080).
And here my troubles come out as I'm using free conversion tool called "Any Video Converter". I simply can't find option to select interlacing option which should be set to Field order = Upper filed first as seen in my Sony Vegas at original MTS file?

My question would be:
- is there free sw video converter (or any other licenced) that offers option to convert MTS to MP4 and to has an option to choose interlacing option at this conversion (in my case Upper field first)?
As I can't find that option, my converted files has field order = None (progressive scan) which results in little jerking mp4 results especially when video clips with faster movements .


Please help.


Thank you.
Boris.

[manono]

It makes no sense to reencode for MP4 as you're degrading the video quality before you ever begin editing.

If you had a DV camera, why didn't you transfer the videos to the computer as DV to begin with?

[Boklavdi]

Thanks Manono for so fast reply.
Don't know what do you exactly mean but I have for about 300G "only" MTS files saved on my home NAS network.
So there is not an option to get any DV. What you meant with DV? Sorry.
For newer video footage I'm using exclusively xavc which is standard today...
Sorry I'm not quite used to video editing stories.
I just decided to put many clips to timeline and to produce some files that could be watchwd on TV.

Regards,
Boris


P. S. If Sony Vegas ain't crashes on these MTS than my video life nowdays would be easier...

[manono]

You said "my ex DV camera Panasonis SH60", so naturally I assumed it took the video as DV AVI. If you need to have only MTS fles, then either use a different editor - one that accepts MTS - or reencode to a lossless AVI codec, ones such as Lagarith or UT Video codec . I don't use Vegas, but a quick check should tell you if it accepts lossless AVI as input. Others may have other ideas.

[jagabo]

What's in those MTS files? Maybe you can remux (no loss of quality) to MP4, MOV, or some other container that's more Vegas friendly. Show a MediaInfo report.

[aedipuss]

could you check the model number of that cam? what you posted was never made. is it a tape based cam or memory? DV is always transferred to computer in avi format. if it's in HD i don't think panasonic ever made a tape based HDV cam.

vegas pro? what version number? i've been editing with it from version 6 to 16 and it has never had a crashing problem with multiple video source files.

[Iamback]

Perhaps he means Olympus Stylus SH-60

[babygdav]

1. Use handbrake.fr and push it through.
You can use a standard preset, but to keep the most quality, go to the video tab and
A.slide the quality bar up to 10 to 12.
B. High, 5.1, film
C. Frame rate - constant, same as original.

Audio tab.
Rather than reencode to aac, pass-through.

First tab, no automatic crop. Custom with 0,0,0,0 for top, bottom, left, right.

That'll general give you a good mp4 for editing.

2.
Mts/mpeg 2 in Vegas video.
They broke something and they won't fix it.

Sorry.

I've had issues with Vegas video with such - simply switched to another like Premier or Davinci instead.

Since Davinci Resolve, Avid Media Composer First are free, worth trying out if you continue trying to edit mts/mpeg2.

[Boklavdi]

Dear friends,
honestly I didn't expect such an activity on my problem. In past I posted some questions on dpreview with no or one answer. So thanks again for thoughts.

Mistake, sorry. Camera model is Panasonic HDC-SD60 FULL HD and I don't have it anymore. Looks like I used and downloaded MTS files at least I have those in my video library. If imported into Sony Vegas 14 lets say 1 or max 15 clips (with ease and no crashes) I see "Upper field first" in my Project media. But if I imported more clips (80 or more) later on my timeline just to join (render) them into one clip with auto overlap function enabled, Vegas crases. I tried on 2 home computers and one of them is Pentium i5, so processor might not be the case.
I read Sony Vegas improved MTS support in last versions which might be true but definitively not true if using more clips and join them on timeline. Mp4's are working flawlesly and I can join them more (even more than 100 clips on timeline).

So decided to work with mp4 and I found Any "Video Converter" good enough in terms of selecting basic parameters like resolution, frame rate and bitrate (except field order setting). I know that any converting produces some quality looses but I can live with it as it is not so obvious in converted results.
Well faster camera movements in scenes produces not acceptable jerkings also to my eye. I somehow detected that problem is in interlacing option as converted clips shows "None (Progressive scan)" and results are jerking scenes while original MTS have "Upper field first".

Manono: Have to check if Any video COnverter supports Lagarith or UT video codecs. It would be nice if so. I'm sure Sony suports avi as a input file. Only MTSes are problematic I think

Jagabo: Do know how to use "remux" in case of "any video converter" sw. Type: MPEG-2 Transport Stream, VIdeo, 25,000 fps interlaced, 1920x1080x12, AVC
Audio: , 48.000 Hz; Stereo, Dolby AC-3 (file has MTS extension in explorer)

Aedipus: Neither I do have problems in Sony Vegas with with files that I'm capturing nowdays and those are Xavc (mp4 file extension)

Iamback: sorry for wrong model advised. Camera model was Panasonic HDC-SD60 Full HD

babygdav: Thanks for useful ideas....I'll definitively try first Handbrake. Actually I don't like learning curve from Vegas to Adobe as I just found Vegas to be more than good enough for my basic editings. Also my nowday files are mp4 XAVC...Is Adobe much more complicated?

[babygdav]

Deinterlacing in Vegas isn't always that great.
For weddings I've done, depending on motion, sometimes blend is better, sometimes interpolate.

Check the moving people and scenes to compare.

If you reencode first in handbrake , Adobe media encoder, etc, the deinterlacing is much better.

...

Upper = top field. But you'd notice right away with anything moving - jagged edges - if you get this wrong.

...

All the major video editing packages work about the same. They feel different and unfamiliar because they love using different icons, commands, etc. Usually a day to get up and running, a week to months to figure out where they put everything (or didn't include).

But for mp4, I've always found Sony to be the fastest cutting wedding videos. Premiere becomes a slug, especially on older pc, while Sony rockets through effects and edit heavy projects.

[babygdav]

Sony/Magix do break and fix things in various versions.
Mpeg-2/mts used to work in old versions (9?), then broke it.
Figure no point supporting a 20 year old~ standard not used anymore.

Mp4 quicksync accelerated encoding broke in 12-14 or so, then magix fixed that. (Really nice to have super fast renders even on a basic Intel laptop with a cpu that has Quicksync. Dudes of Minutes instead of hours for renders.)

...
I forget, but in another thread, Vegas still has issues with some 4k frame rate/deinterlacing on 4K 60fps footage? But Adobe media encoder didn't.

Since Adobe is paid, and today Blackmagic Davinci and avid media composer first are free, thesebwould be the 2nd video editor program to have in case things break and you don't want to figure it out.

Avid is seriously different. It'll take a week just to figure out how they do almost everything different.

Adobe premiere does have the unique integration with Photoshop and after effects, so many go toss way because of that.

Still, I'd say I could get 90-95% of work done with just Vegas.

[Boklavdi]

Thanks for all additional infos babygdav..

I'll definitively try other conversion tools like you are mentioning:
handbrake , Adobe media encod

[Cornucopia]

There is no such thing as 4k interlaced, so there shouldn't be an issue about 4k de-interlacing, since there would never be a need for it. Of course, 4k was never mentioned by the OP anyway. Red herring.

Vegas is (was?) a very good one-stop-shop for one-man jobs. Very good at many things, but maybe not the best at most of them.

Scott

[babygdav]

Ah
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/395563-4K-footage-for-DVD#post2569828
It was Vegas vs VideoStudio, with the latter having a problem encoding to dvd.

...
In any case, like I've found, once you get the mpg into mp4 format, it ought to work fine like https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/396841-Rendering-Problems-in-Sony-Vegas-Pro

[Boklavdi]

Today I do also have Sony Rx100 M3 and Sony A6000.
Somehow I intend to use Sony Vegas also in future.

Regards,
Boris

[babygdav]

Anyways, hopefully your Sony video files will work fine in Vegas.
My WX350 files work fine in Vegas, and given that Vegas used to be owned by Sony....


Try xavc format in progressive.

[Boklavdi]

Sony files are working just fine.
Problems are with other older files that I have to put into one video file per folder.

Regards,
Boris

[jagabo]

Jagabo: Do know how to use "remux" in case of "any video converter" sw. Type: MPEG-2 Transport Stream, VIdeo, 25,000 fps interlaced, 1920x1080x12, AVC
Audio: , 48.000 Hz; Stereo, Dolby AC-3 (file has MTS extension in explorer)

A quick remux to MP4 might help. You can use ffmpeg to remux. If you put this in a batch file:

ffmpeg -i %1 -codec copy "%~dpn1.mp4"
pause

You can drag/drop any of your MTS files onto it to produce an MP4 file. If you put the batch file in your SendTo folder you can right click on any MTS file and select Send To -> NAME.bat -- where NAME is whatever you named the batchfile, say, RemuxToMP4.bat.

If Vegas can't handle AC3 in MP4 you can reencode the audio to AAC:

ffmpeg -i %1 -vcodec copy -acodec aac "%~dpn1.mp4"
pause

[Boklavdi]

Jagabo: Do know how to use "remux" in case of "any video converter" sw. Type: MPEG-2 Transport Stream, VIdeo, 25,000 fps interlaced, 1920x1080x12, AVC
Audio: , 48.000 Hz; Stereo, Dolby AC-3 (file has MTS extension in explorer)

A quick remux to MP4 might help. You can use ffmpeg to remux. If you put this in a batch file:

ffmpeg -i %1 -codec copy "%~dpn1.mp4"
pause

You can drag/drop any of your MTS files onto it to produce an MP4 file. If you put the batch file in your SendTo folder you can right click on any MTS file and select Send To -> NAME.bat -- where NAME is whatever you named the batchfile, say, RemuxToMP4.bat.

If Vegas can't handle AC3 in MP4 you can reencode the audio to AAC:

ffmpeg -i %1 -vcodec copy -acodec aac "%~dpn1.mp4"
pause

I tried with test file renamed to test.mts and use command {ffmpeg -i test.mts test.mp4} and result was not good....some horizontal lines in converted file (interlaced?) Actually this method seems simple to me....but has to work . If result can be loseless (like tif in photo world) it would be great.
Also if I open that test file later in vegas it shows Field order=non progresive scan....

[jagabo]

The commands I gave are lossless for the video (the second re-encodes the audio) and keep the correct field order flag. And you should see comb artifacts in the output file -- it's still interlaced. Just handle it as you would any interlaced video. You can't convert interlaced video to progressive without reencoding.

[sophisticles]

If imported into Sony Vegas 14 lets say 1 or max 15 clips (with ease and no crashes) I see "Upper field first" in my Project media. But if I imported more clips (80 or more) later on my timeline just to join (render) them into one clip with auto overlap function enabled, Vegas crashes. I tried on 2 home computers and one of them is Pentium i5, so processor might not be the case.

This indicates that it's a memory issue, specifically you are running out of ram.

It's ridiculous that you would try to load 80 clips simultaneously the timeline and expect it not to crash.

[Boklavdi]

Hi,

Sophisticles ok understood but mp4 are working.
How should I work and edit files (clips) from summer vacation?
What's the suggested workflow then? I never get back with 30 or less clips from travel.

I also don't edit all clips... My intention with Vegas in this case
is only stitching everything together into one file to watch it on TV.

Regards
Boris

[babygdav]

Editing wedding videos in the past on a Pentium Shuttle xpc with 2 GB ram under xp and Vegas was able to drop in hundred + clips without crashing....

If it crashes, likely the video it doesn't like assuming you've tried at least 2 different Vegas versions.

...

Just push the clips through handbrake like noted earlier. Works, easy to batch, and almost always outputs nice mp4.

..

Other ideas to try.

Turn off hardware acceleration (gpu) in settings.
Try trial of version 16.

....

Try other free video editors.
Win10's Photos app has a free basic video editor.
Blackmagic Davinci, Avid Media Composer First, Hitfilm Express are all free.

...

Maybe record and post a 5 second recording off that camcorder for us to try?
Does adding 80+ copies of that short clip still crash vegas?

....

Could be a DROPOUT.
DV tape has errors reading it like any tape.
Visually, just a speck or line on a frame, sometimes not even noticed, but this data error could cause problems with the video editor?

You'd add video clips to Vegas in batches of 5 to speed things up to test. When it crashes, open Vegas up, add everything up to that batch and skip over those 5, continue adding more until you have 80+. Still crashes?

[jagabo]

My intention with Vegas in this case
is only stitching everything together into one file to watch it on TV.

If you just want to append them all into one big file you can use ffmpeg's concat(enate) filter.

ffmpeg -y -safe 0 -f concat -i list.txt -c copy output.mp4

list.txt is a simple text file of filenames:

file 'file1.mp4' 
file 'file2.mp4' 
file 'file3.mp4'

[Boklavdi]

Ok. Let's play this game more in depth. I tried some combinations this mornign unsucessfully. Therefore if any of you have that time help me getting right setting for converting file in Handbrake or ffmpeg:
https://mega.nz/file/yVJlhKoS#f5IRvGZLCwP1QAWgQ0QEFBhBd1fCcsDif8Q3UUHEBkk
from mts --> mp4 at loseless quality.

Take a closer look at yellow house and windows. Effect of jerking at windows.

Bare in mind that if I render this single clip in Vegas with an option (Profile: Main, PAL 25, Field order: Upper field first (same as original file)) everything okay but am limited with few clips only as mentioned so that is not an option on my pc.


So goal is to get mp4 at closest possible quality as original (loseless would be perfect).

Thank you.


Regads,
Boris

[babygdav]

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Handbrake settings I use to convert pal mts to mp4.

[babygdav]

If you have an Intel Quicksync capable CPU, you can accelerate the encode significantly (minutes instead of hours) by turning on Quicksync in the Handbrake settings, then picking H.264 QSV encoder. Otherwise, the default H.264 encoder works fine.

Slide that quality up to 12 to increase the quality significantly - identical for most intents.
(You can test all you want or just slide it up more to like 10, even 5.)

HIGH 5.2 is important - this increase the MP4 encoder quality a lot.

audio can be the original (test to see if it causes issues), or simply reencode to 320Kbps MP3 for maximum compatibility in a MP4 file.

tested it with a panasonic hdc-tm700 pal video clip I found online, works fine.

[Boklavdi]

trying different settings in latest handbrake (also with 5.2 encoder level,...with no success.
Windows on yellow house (sample clip) are just not same as original.
Seems big drop in quality if ask me. FPS, quality bps do not matter.

Regards,
Boris.

[Boklavdi]

if using Video codec: h.264 (Intel QSV) there is no generated file. Only error in bottom line "Queue finished with 1 errors or cancellation detects.
It's ridiculous how much time takes this finding of proper settings in my case .

btw everything running on not top notch Pentium 4200, 1.1GHz (I know it is not kind a processor monster but rendering time is not crucial for me as running pc overy nights is not a problem)


p.s. Babygdav thank you for screenshots...unfortunately ... ....

[jagabo]

ffmpeg remux to mp4:

ffmpeg -i 00038.mts -codec copy 00038.mp4

No loss of quality.

Simple concatenation via command line COPY:

copy/b 00038.MTS+00038.MTS CAT.MTS

You can concatenate any number of MTS files this way. This works with transport streams, not with other containers like MP4 or MKV. Some players/editors may not like the discontinuous timestamps though.