Best Losless Video Codec ?

[vodmare]

Hi Guys,

It's been a while. I normally use the PICvideo MJPEG v.3 for conversion/editing/authoring and I have been very happy with it, I think it retains all of the original files quality across the entire process. However, recently I moved machines and I more than likely will have to re-purchase it and or upgrade to v.4 - which I think will be a good idea.

But before that step, is there is another codec any of you use, that you think might work as well or better? I mean, I have to upgrade anyway, so any suggestions anyone has would be greatly appreciated.

Mostly what I have been using it for is to rip from DVD (HD eventually) then convert to an editable format using the codec, edit, then compress to DVD for playback.

Thanks.

-vodmare.

[poisondeathray]

"Better" in terms of what ?

price ? speed ? compression ? compatibility ? colorspace options ? 64-bit?

[yoda313]

Also it isn't really lossless since its already compressed in the form of dvd - its best to keep it in dvd format if the final destination is in fact dvd.

Why not just use any of the wide number of editors that support dvd natively?

[poisondeathray]

Their MJPEG codec isn't lossless, but their Lossless JPEG codec is .

[vodmare]

It was my understanding that editing in native mpeg2 wasn't a good idea because the compression wouldn't account for all the frames and it would jerk quite a bit. When I started doing this in 2003.....maybe things have changed, I don't know. Maybe there is better support. Do you have a suggested list of editors that do?

As for the suggestions. The PICvideo codec was able to quickly convert from MPEG2 into an editable format in a 32 bit environment and I couldn't really see any difference. That is to say, that it didn't seem to down compress it in any way and when I went back out to MPEG2 in the end, it looked pretty much the same way that it came in. Those are really the only points that I am in search of. When I output, I also make a "losless" version so that I can make future changes if need be, or output into any other format - e.g. web, computer, portable etc. But for the most part, back to DVD is the output desired.

So based on that, I am just looking to see what other codecs people use and or would suggest. Of course if there is something out there that is available based on more points than what I've mentioned, then I want to know so I can check it out and see if works better.

Thanks!

-vodmare.

[poisondeathray]

"I couldn't see any difference", isn't the same as lossless . An audio analogy would be flac vs. mp3. Some people can't hear the difference with high bitrate mp3, but many people can. If you look at audio graphs and waveforms, there is a definite loss. Same with video, if you do difference masks or look closely zooming in, there is definite quality loss. But that might be "good enough" for some purposes

You will find truly lossless codecs a lot harder to edit (slower to encode and decode), and much larger in filesize . Truly lossless codecs would be lagarith, huffyuv, ut video codec. UT would be the fastest, easiest to edit , but larger in filesize (worse compression)

If the quality loss is not an issue for you, then that opens a lot of doors. Many free options. You could use I-frame MPEG2, free MJPG though ffdshow or ffmpeg, dozens of other choices. Matrox has recently released free verisions of vfw codecs that perform well and many professionals use with NLE's
http://www.matrox.com/video/en/support/windows/vfw_software_codecs/downloads/softwares/version1.0/.

[filmboss80]

I have to agree with others and suggest you avoid re-encoding as much as possible. Editors like Vegas can do frame-level cuts and transitions, only doing reencoding around the affected edit or effects frames. There are also dedicated MPEG-2 / DVD editing programs, such as TMPGEnc MPEG Editor and Womble MPEG Video Wizard DVD that should also work.

Otherwise, lossless codecs that allow frame-accurate cutting without encoding are in AVI territory (such as Huffyuv), but that takes up LOADS of disc space. Instead of focusing on codecs, I suggest you rethink your strategy and focus on good MPEG editing tools.

[vodmare]

Hey guys,

Thanks a lot for your input. I've actually spent quite a lot of time looking for compression artifacts and I didn't really see any. But like you said, that does not mean that they aren't there. The FLAC vs MP3 is a great analogy of that. I think that I am going to check out some of the lossless (truly losless) codecs that you mentioned and see if I am able to work with them.

How do the editing programs that you guys are talking about, stack up against programs like Premiere ? I am guessing that Premiere does not support native Mpeg2 editing.....

-vodmare.

[vodmare]

I am guessing that the HUFF codec is not win7 compatible?

I installed it and it seemed to go fine, I mean, a window popped up that is not on screen long enough to read. And the readme says this is what it's supposed to do. But when I enter into virtuaDUB or another editor, the HUFF codec is not an option.

I tried to a command line install, but then it said that it couldn't install at all.

Could I be doing something wrong?

Thanks.

-vodmare.

[poisondeathray]

did you right click .inf and select install ?

are you running as administrator with permissions ?

what os ? x64 ? there are special instructions to install 32-bit codecs in 64-bit os . There is also a 64-bit huffyuv version. (but then you would use 64-bit vdub, filters etc...)

another option: you can access ffvhuff (huffyuv through ffdshow)

Note: Premiere doesn't treat lossless codecs as lossless, because they undergo RGB conversion (your original colorspace for MPEG2 is Y'CbCr) and luminance values get clamped 16-235 (Y values <16 or >235 are mapped to RGB 0, 255) . You can see this when you look at difference masks or even with naked eye on footage that has superbrights/superdarks - there is defininte quality loss. Even lossless codecs in RGB mode, aren't treated as lossless.

[vodmare]

Hey,

It's x64 win7 running as admin. I have tried both the 32 and 64 installers - well, .inf right click install that is. Although, it wasn't with a 64 ver. of Vdub.

Hrmmm. I'll keep at it.

-vodmare.

[poisondeathray]

In my experience, 32-bit vdub is more stable , all filters, associated programs (avisynth) , even on 64-bit OS . I've only had problems with 64-bit vdub

You can search for 32-bit VFW/ACM install instructions on 64-bit OS, there are posted all over the internet . This would work for other similar VFW type codecs like AC3ACM, LAME MP3 ACM , etc.. all that work in vdub
e.g.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11627&postcount=3

There are significant differences between the lossless codecs. Some of the parameters by which they are judged by are listed in the 2nd post. e.g. FFV1 in YV12 mode offers better compression than even lagarith , but is much slower to encode and decode. For smooth editing , decode speed is important

The application or how you are using them is also important. e.g. I edited my post above, Premiere Pro handles some of them differently

Also, what version of Premiere ? I can edit MPEG2 files natively in both CS4/5 . (But they still undergo colorspace conversion - they are not handled in native Y'CbCr colorspace . Smart rendering editors like videoredo will handle in same colorspace, and allow passthrough of unedited segments = no quality loss except in the same GOP where your cuts occur)

[vodmare]

Hey,

I have installed some filters like the mpeg2 support and .ac3 support, but all you did to do that was make a plugins32 folder and put the .dll's in there. Seemed to work. You know Lagarith does the same thing as HUFF, it doesn't show up.

I installed what touts itself as a losless codec called MSU-LS. Do you have any experience with this one? It showed up in VDUB. It's rendering right now.

I am currently using Prem Pro 7. I tried to import the mpeg2 directly and no go. I think it would be much nicer to just edit with the mpeg2 file directly. Does the cs4/5 handle the mpeg2 files in a frame by frame editable way? If so, that may be the route to go for me, even with the color space redo. I don't see the loss happening with the lossy codecs, so editing in the native mpeg2 might actually be a step up. But then again, now that I am aware of it, it bothers me you know?

-vodmare.

[jagabo]

Under 64 bit Windows 64 bit programs require 64 bit codecs, 32 bit programs require 32 bit codecs. Because of this segregation installing 32 bit codecs sometimes requires a special procedure:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/271712-Lame-MP3-Encoder-on-Vista-x64#1723154

[poisondeathray]

I installed what touts itself as a losless codec called MSU-LS. Do you have any experience with this one?

MSU is very slow to encode/decode and compression isn't much different than lagarith

Does the cs4/5 handle the mpeg2 files in a frame by frame editable way? If so, that may be the route to go for me, even with the color space redo. I don't see the loss happening with the lossy codecs, so editing in the native mpeg2 might actually be a step up. But then again, now that I am aware of it, it bothers me you know?

Exactly. It's good enough for most people. I just wanted to point out, its not lossless

Yes CS4/5 can edit mpeg2 directly with frame accuracy, but everything is re-rendered upon export (i.e. you incur both colorspace conversion loss and re-encoding generation loss) (unless you have 3rd party plugin from Mainconcept, which allows "smart rendering" like videoredo) . "Smart rendering" allows passthrough of untouched segments - so only the few frames around the cutsite are re-rendered, everything else is copied through. However if you apply a global effect like color correction , of course everything has to be re-rendered . You can download the trial version and see if you like it. For simple cut type editing , I use videoredo

[vodmare]

That might be the answer then, use cs4/5 and then use either the mainconcept pluing or videredo - that way only the edited areas are re-compressed. I don't plan on any full piece color correction.

You're right about MSU being slow, Jesus, 4.5 FPS ?!?!

I've really learned a lot here. Thank you for your help! I'll keep you posted with my progress, or GOD forbid, more problems....

-vodmare.

[vodmare]

Alright, so I think I have the video thing resolved. Now I am back to the codecs themselves.

I use PICvideo MJPEG lossy codec.

and I just installed and tried out the JPEG LOSSLESS codec.

The lossless, looks great, the one thing that makes me nervous is that there arent a lot of options/controls, FAR fewer than in the lossy one. The appearance of more things to adjust make me feel like I'm making the wrong move moving over to the LOSSLESS one.

In the past I have used the LOSSY one, thinking it was a lossless one and didnt really see a problem. However, since outputting this time around I can certainly see the noise in the end product. Ultimately I would like to have a nice LOSSLESS file in the end to convert to anything I want, at any time later one. For now I go into MPEG2 for DVD archive, but save the hi res file as well.

I really wanted to try the HUFF, but I could never get it to install.

Thanks.

-vodmare.

[jagabo]

The lossless, looks great, the one thing that makes me nervous is that there arent a lot of options/controls, FAR fewer than in the lossy one. The appearance of more things to adjust make me feel like I'm making the wrong move moving over to the LOSSLESS one.

A lossy encoder needs more settings so you can control how much you are going to lose (more losses make for smaller files). A lossless encoder doesn't need all those controls.

I really wanted to try the HUFF, but I could never get it to install.

Did you try the link I posted earlier in this thread?

[lordsmurf]

It was my understanding that editing in native mpeg2 wasn't a good idea because the compression wouldn't account for all the frames and it would jerk quite a bit.

Your understanding is completely incorrect.
DVDs and most all TV broadcasts come in over MPEG-2. Do those jerk? No.

[vodmare]

@jagabo

I see, that makes perfect sense. The files are freaking HUGE! But I guess that the price you pay. I did try the link, I tried the programs install, and the manual command line install, and I could never get it to show. The program install, appears to do it, but never shows and doing the command line install, it always errors.

@lordsmurf

I wasn't referring to playing back a completed mpeg2 stream, broadcast or otherwise. I meant editing that mpeg2 stream, in the past at least, would jerk in most editors because it wouldn't account for all the frames. However, I have learned that there are editors now that handle it just fine.

Thanks guys!

-vodmare.

[vodmare]

Hi guys,

I have a codec question for you. Below is a screen shot of the configure screen for the PICvideo LOSSLESS codec. I cannot seem to find a help file or any online help that refers to what exactly changing the bit threshold does/changes. Any ideas? Also, the color space option.....Premiere is going to change that any way right? So there's no need to try and force it to remain in the same mpeg2 color space right?

Thanks.

[jagabo]

As far as I can tell, the "Discarded Low Bits" settings doesn't do anything. Using VirtualDub and PicVideo 2 LJPG the output files were bit-for-bit identical with the slider set all the way to the left and all the way to the right. Same with PicVideo 3 LJPG. The decompressed videos were identical too.

[vodmare]

Thanks for checking on that for me man. I will just leave it alone the, leave it at the default.

-vodmare.

[vodmare]

Hey, I have a Premiere question for you. I don't know why now, but now when I export out of VDUB into the LOSSLESS codec, then import into Premiere, just the audio appears. The files icon is the speaker icon and it only plays back as audio. However, if you open the same file outside of premiere, say in real player, it plays video just fine, but no audio.

What the hell?

-vodmare.

[poisondeathray]

It sounds like you have player or codec issues (like the pun )

If you use another player , can you hear audio ? e.g. mpchc, vlc, smplayer etc....

What audio settings did you use in vdub's audio compression menu ?

Which lossless codec did you use ? was it 32 or 64 bit version? What version of premiere ? is it 32-bit (CS4) or 64-bit (CS5) ? The vfw decoder has to match (32-bit for 32-bit, or 64-bit for 64-bit) in order for the "handshake" to occur for the software

[vodmare]

Opening it with MPCHC there is both video and audio.

Vdub is 32 bit. The codec is 32 bit as best I can tell, it's dates of release end in 03' and it's version 3 and when v3 of their other codec was released there was no 64 bit that I was aware of.

The OS is 64 bit, and it's premiere cs5.

In vdub, it's checked to interleave the audio and its a direct stream copy mode.

The codec is PICvideo LJPEG LOSSLESS.

-vodmare.

[poisondeathray]

You need to use 64-bit plugins/codecs for CS5 , that probably explains why you can't see the video (or there might be some incompatiblities since that codec is very old)

The audio problem is just a player issue , since it works with everything else

[jagabo]

64 bit versions of Windows have different environments for 32 bit programs and 64 bit programs. 32 bit programs require 32 bit codecs. 64 bit programs require 64 bit codecs. The two can't see each other's codecs.

I believe the 64 bit version of ffdshow has a lossless JPEG decoder. You may have to change the fourcc to LJPG.

[vodmare]

Would installing FFDSHOW allow the same files to be played in Premiere? Or really Windows.

Otherwise, could I just go back to CS4 and circumvent everything?

-vodmare.

[poisondeathray]

Why not use the original files ? Unless there is another reason (like pre-filtering in another application) , I can't see why you are using a lossless codec, or even a lossy intermediate.

There are no issues with sync or choppiness with using MPEG2. You could edit MPEG2 natively (I think since CS3) . Moreover, since your sources are SD, there is no reason for "easier editing" purposes (in the past with older computers, it might have helped to use an I-frame intermediate instead of Long GOP) . Since you are using CS5, you can even do multiple of HD layers in realtime (dozens of SD layers) if you have a compatible GFX card. I see no advantage in your case to encoding to another format