interesting eBay experience

[AlecWest]

This is a "story in progress" and I'll let you know how it pans out. Recently, a friend's kid deleted sensitive files on her computer ... leaving her Windows XP Home useless in a lot of ways. Top that off with the fact that she didn't keep (or lost) her OEM disk. So, I told her she'd have to get a new OEM disk ... and let me reinstall from scratch. She gave me the money and I ordered this item:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180023438184&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:12

Her system is a Gateway P4 ... and Gateway support supplied me with all the drivers needed to get things flying again after XP is reinstalled.

BUT ...

The Windows XP Home, SP2, arrived this afternoon. And, I opened up the outer wrapping and saw what I expected to see ... the holographic disk, the COA, etc. But then, I saw something I didn't expect to see. On the green cover of the software package, underneath the plastic wrap (which I've not removed), were these words:



So, this eBay powerseller is selling embargoed software - licensed only outside of North America in the areas mentioned. Quite likely, if I'd broken the plastic seal and attempted to install it, Microsoft authentication would fail (because I'm not in the right country). Anyhoo, I sent a nastygram to the seller - and a note to eBay to see what my options are if their seller will not remedy the situation.

[oldandinthe way]

If the answer you get from ebay is unsatisfactory, also contact PayPal (I assume thats how you paid since it is the sellers only option).

PayPal can reverse the charge.

If you used your credit card with PayPal and they do not get you satisfaction, contact your credit card issuer and request a chargeback.

[ViRaL1]

Just out of curiosity..why does it seem that PayPal is so much more responsive than eBay. PayPal is after all an eBay company. I wonder what the major difference is in terms of customer service.

[AlecWest]

If the answer you get from ebay is unsatisfactory, also contact PayPal (I assume thats how you paid since it is the sellers only option).

PayPal can reverse the charge.

If you used your credit card with PayPal and they do not get you satisfaction, contact your credit card issuer and request a chargeback.

Yes, I used PayPal. But rather than have them just auto-withdraw the amount from my checking account, I elected to use my own VISA card for this purchase. So, I can fall back on my VISA issuer if PayPal balks at helping. It's still early, though. I will give the merchant a chance to remedy things first. What I won't do is follow any advice like, "Go ahead and take it out of the plastic wrap and install it ... it'll work," because I know that breaking the seal constitutes legal acceptance of the product.

Beyond that, I suppose I could also report this seller to Microsoft for selling embargoed software in North America.

[oldandinthe way]

PayPal has a vested interest in avoiding chargebacks by credit card issuers.

1. They can end up being out the money to reimburse you.

2. The rate they pay the banks (Interchange Fee) can be raised if they have too many chargebacks.

PayPal is biased toward stiffing the seller, since if they agree to reverse the charge they can avoid a chargeback. Their so-called "seller protection plan" is double-think for a list of reasons that the seller can be reversed. PayPal can even take the money out of a seller's bank account without any prior notice.

Ebay has none of these motivations, nor does it have the tools to collect from the seller.

[AlecWest]

PayPal has a vested interest in avoiding chargebacks by credit card issuers.

1. They can end up being out the money to reimburse you.

2. The rate they pay the banks (Interchange Fee) can be raised if they have too many chargebacks.

PayPal is biased toward stiffing the seller, since if they agree to reverse the charge they can avoid a chargeback. Their so-called "seller protection plan" is double-think for a list of reasons that the seller can be reversed. PayPal can even take the money out of a seller's bank account without any prior notice.

Ebay has none of these motivations, nor does it have the tools to collect from the seller.

I'm sure you're correct about PayPal and eBay on how they perceive the problem. Just wondered, if push came to shove, what action Microsoft might take. Do they really take selling embargoed software seriously ... or would it just end up being put in some forgotten complaint file?

[jman98]

While it is true that Pay Pal CAN reverse the charge, please note that the odds are not real good that they will. In fact, it seems to me that Pay Pal always gives the benefit of the doubt to the most dishonest party in any disputed transaction. You might try looking at
http://www.paypalsucks.com
and see if that changes your mind.

Anyway AlecWest, you are giving Microsoft an awful lot of credit. I think it's almost as likely that your registration would work. Microsoft has reluctantly sold a crippled version of XP in certain countries with high levels of piracy and I'd be more concerned that you bought one of those than that the registration won't work. However, I certainly don't blame you for wanting a legit US version, but I'm not sure I'd try Ebay again. People who sell XP there for cheap are doing so because it's either not for the USA, as yours was, or the license key won't work and they know it.

[AlecWest]

Anyway AlecWest, you are giving Microsoft an awful lot of credit. I think it's almost as likely that your registration would work.

Perhaps. But, if I crack open the plastic seal and it doesn't work, zTechSoftware can claim that my opening it up constitutes legal acceptance ... and can argue, "Hey, the notice it wasn't valid in North America was right on the front in plain view."

People who sell XP there for cheap are doing so because it's either not for the USA, as yours was, or the license key won't work and they know it.

The XP version I'm using now was cheaper than the one I just bought ... passed authentication with flying colors ... and was bought on eBay.

In any case, I'm hoping for the best. This guy is a Powerseller with a 100% satisfaction rate ... and would probably not want to see Sold me illegal embargoed WinXP in his feedback area. Anyhoo, will see what happens.

P.S. FWIW, I first sent this seller email at the (ebay@ztechsoftware.com) address PayPal showed for him ... and it bounced because his mailbox was full. I wonder why (hmmm). I ended up contacting him via the "ask seller a question" page on eBay. Of course, if he receives his eBay notices at the same address, he'll never get it. Also noticed that the phone number he shows on ztechsoftware.com's registrar info goes to a message box.

[zoobie]

I've been selling on eBay for years
I'm sure you've gotten a lot of sub-offers to buy XP corp
ebay blows and is filled with fraud
mega questionble biz practices...like hoarding users into stores only to then raise the price 60%

[AlecWest]

Followup - I tried his telephone number again and reached him. He did a song-n-dance about how he gets them from Microsoft that way and how it was OK to install it. I told him to read the email I sent him about the problem. This was his reply:

Hello!

The product you received it 100% genuine and legal to use in the USA. It is the Full OEM version and is identical to all the retail versions you could purchase on the shelves at stores like Best Buy. We purchased this product in bulk directly from Microsoft and sometimes they send us things that may be labeled slightly different (like distribution only to certain countries). Microsoft sells these to us when they have a surplus of this product and they have fully authorized the use of these in the USA. Everything is in english and you still can download all the updates directly through Microsoft (there is no difference).
Please feel safe in knowing that both Microsoft & ZTech back your product.

Feel free to email us if you have any other questions at all!

-ZTechSoftware

And, this was my reply back to him:

David - I just spoke to you by phone - and just saw your email response. I'm sorry but I will not use a product that is clearly marked as embargoed. At this point, I can see only one remedy. I need this software NOW. That's why I ordered from you Express Mail ... and I'll now buy it from another seller. So, I'll need you to refund me $104.23. When the refund is credited back to PayPal, I'll mail the unopened software back to you (certified - return receipt). If this is unacceptable to you, I'll have no recourse but to have my VISA issuer request a chargeback to PayPal - and report the sale of embargoed software to Microsoft. Give me your decision on this within 24 hours. I'll be waiting.

So, the haggis is in the fire.

[Scorpion King]

I suppose if I were to move from here (us) to africa I would expect my XP install to still function. If it didn't I'd be mad. So in the same breath I would suppose if someone moved from africa to here their XP would still be good. The problem is you are not buying it as it was intended to be sold.... to someone in those listed countries. I did a quick google search and I find you are not alone in this scam. It seems XP copies are being sold here (in the us) that were ment to be sold in europe as well, and all them came off ebay.... The site you linked to says he has 63 more copies for sale. However sad that may be.

Anyways, I'm proud of you and I hope you stand firm and demand you $$ back.... and get it.

I would also like to think that Ebay would not allow such practices. Yea, right>.>.

good luck

[Supreme2k]

Have you tried here?

[AlecWest]

The problem is you are not buying it as it was intended to be sold.... to someone in those listed countries.

Yup. If I did try to activate it and failed, Microsoft would say, "Well, what did you expect?" and the seller would say the obvious - that I should have read the packaging before breaking the seal.

In any case, David responded to me this way:

please put it in the mail, and provide us w/ the tracking # and we will refund you.

Uh-huh. A tracking number only proves I mailed "something" to him. He could turn around and say, "The guy sent me an empty envelope," and I'd be left with no proof of having received an embargoed version of WinXP. So, putting my thinking cap on (evil grin), I responded to him this way:

David - I have a better idea. You say the software is legal and perhaps I should give you the benefit of the doubt on that. Therefore, tomorrow, I'll call Microsoft and verify that it is legal for me to use in the USA. If they give me a thumb's up, then you were right and hope you'll accept my apology. However, if they give me another answer, I'll take their advice on what to do next.

It covers both bases. If it really is legal, I do owe him an apology and have given it. If it's not, he's probably s**ting bricks right now wondering if he'll get a knock on his door.

[AlecWest]

Have you tried here?

I've bookmarked the page. Thanks.

[pharries]

Consider contacting Msoft
They want to stamp this out as much as you do.
They may even trade Cds if you proove your situation in return for a statement regarding the facts.

[AlecWest]

Consider contacting Msoft
They want to stamp this out as much as you do.
They may even trade Cds if you proove your situation in return for a statement regarding the facts.

That thought occurred to me. But, who knows, maybe they'll say "Yeah, go ahead and use it," if the numbers themselves are legit ... especially if they corroborate what David said - that they sell them bulk to resellers in that fashion. Somehow, though, I doubt it. We'll see.

[Bodyslide]

Have you tried here?

I've bookmarked the page. Thanks.

Here's the Pro Version

http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=SWW13456

[lordsmurf]

PayPal can even take the money out of a seller's bank account without any prior notice.

No, they cannot. That is against the law.

[adam]

Opening the packaging won't have any legal effect. Under UCC you're entitled to inspect the goods you purchase, and to do that with software there's just no way except to open it and install it. Its true that most retail stores will not except returns on opened software but that is per your purchase agreement with them and I don't think that language is present in your agreement with this seller.

With that said, even if this is actually intended for sale in the US and is somehow mislabeled, its still not a conforming good. If he had a mislabled good for sale than he has to tell you that up front. I think contacting Microsoft first is the best course of action. I would find it very hard to believe that this is business as usual.

Btw: This is not an example of an embargoed good. An embargo is when the government restricts trade on something. This would be considered a grey market good because it is a legitimate good (let's hope it is at least that) but it is being sold in an unauthorized manner. It's Microsoft that is putting the regional restriction on it, not the government.

[AlanHK]

I see the words "illegal", "embargoed" used. As another poster wrote, it's just grey market. MS sells its products at different prices in different markets. If you think taking advantage of MS selling cheap goods in another market is illegal, well, that's just capitalism. Charge what the market will bear. Companies export jobs to take advantage of lower wages in other countries. You can import goods to take advantage of lower foreign prices, that's what Walmart does.

So I don't see a moral question. I don't think it's a legal question, perhaps the people who originally bought the disks from MS made some contract with them, which you can't know about and have no responsibility to enforce.

MS will quite likely tell you it's illegal. They would say that about almost any software you bought on eBay. They try to block any transfers of software, regardless of the actual law which lets you resell goods you have bought.

The practical question is whether MS will allow you to activate and update it. It would be very unlikely they would try to block you based on IP. After all, what if you had bought it personally in Africa and brought it home?

Also, looking at the vendor's eBay feedback, everyone loves him. Maybe some are shills, but I'd have thought there would be complaints if the disks he sold failed to install. It's cute that the image of the disk doesn't enlarge enough to let you read the small print though....

[gadgetguy]

PayPal can even take the money out of a seller's bank account without any prior notice.

No, they cannot. That is against the law.

I don't know about Paypal specifically, but in most direct deposit agreements there is a clause that allows them to "make corrections" which means they can take money out of your account without prior notice because you've given them permission to do so.

[lordsmurf]

PayPal can even take the money out of a seller's bank account without any prior notice.

No, they cannot. That is against the law.

I don't know about Paypal specifically, but in most direct deposit agreements there is a clause that allows them to "make corrections" which means they can take money out of your account without prior notice because you've given them permission to do so.

Direct deposit is one-way. If they make a mistake, the bank cannot give it back without the expressed permission of the account holder.

Do not confuse this with a direct draft, but even then, there are strict rules on how that works.

There is not an "electronic blank check" for a company to take whatever they want from a banking account, regardless of the reasons.

There are no such "open" agreements with Paypal.

[Captain Satellite]

PayPal can even take the money out of a seller's bank account without any prior notice.

No, they cannot. That is against the law.

Sure they can, they've done it to me.

[Captain Satellite]

Followup - I tried his telephone number again and reached him. He did a song-n-dance about how he gets them from Microsoft that way and how it was OK to install it. I told him to read the email I sent him about the problem. This was his reply:

Hello!

The product you received it 100% genuine and legal to use in the USA. It is the Full OEM version and is identical to all the retail versions you could purchase on the shelves at stores like Best Buy. We purchased this product in bulk directly from Microsoft and sometimes they send us things that may be labeled slightly different (like distribution only to certain countries). Microsoft sells these to us when they have a surplus of this product and they have fully authorized the use of these in the USA. Everything is in english and you still can download all the updates directly through Microsoft (there is no difference).
Please feel safe in knowing that both Microsoft & ZTech back your product.

Feel free to email us if you have any other questions at all!

-ZTechSoftware

And, this was my reply back to him:

David - I just spoke to you by phone - and just saw your email response. I'm sorry but I will not use a product that is clearly marked as embargoed. At this point, I can see only one remedy. I need this software NOW. That's why I ordered from you Express Mail ... and I'll now buy it from another seller. So, I'll need you to refund me $104.23. When the refund is credited back to PayPal, I'll mail the unopened software back to you (certified - return receipt). If this is unacceptable to you, I'll have no recourse but to have my VISA issuer request a chargeback to PayPal - and report the sale of embargoed software to Microsoft. Give me your decision on this within 24 hours. I'll be waiting.

So, the haggis is in the fire.

How can you expect a merchant to issue you credit BEFORE you return the product? Who on earth do you know of that conducts business this way? I want to shop there - NOW!

[Captain Satellite]

Smurf, Scroll down to 4. f to see how they cleverly can access your account. I experienced this when they removed money from my account that was registered with them while they were conducting an investigation that I won. I transferred it from my PayPal account to my bank account because I knew this guy was going to be a jerk - it didn't matter. They call it putting it on hold.
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=xpt/ua/PolicyExpressPurchaseProtectionPop-outside

[AlecWest]

Direct deposit is one-way. If they make a mistake, the bank cannot give it back without the expressed permission of the account holder.

VISA and MasterCard do "chargebacks" all the time on unauthorized sales - without permission of the account holder.

[AlecWest]

How can you expect a merchant to issue you credit BEFORE you return the product? Who on earth do you know of that conducts business this way?

A business that wants to keep unauthorized sales activity private ... especially when what they're selling is software from a company that can and will sue people for it.

[lordsmurf]

@Captain Satellite
Paypal item 4F refers to Paypal doing all that is in their power. In other words, they can take your Paypal funds, freeze your account, or otherwise give you a negative Paypal balance. They do have authority to dip into the checking account.

@AlecWest
Chargebacks are not the same. That topic's not even related.

They also cannot charge your various credit cards and debit cards attached the the account. Those would be unauthorized charges too.

When it comes right down to it, Paypal is pretty limp-dicked. They are not a member of FDIC, they are not a bank, they merely are a transaction middleman.

What is even worse is that when a problem comes up, both the complaintant and the defendant are "flagged" in some way. They've been known to shut down accounts of people that "complain too much" (which can be as little as 2-3 times among a large number of transactions). It's all documented, go do some web searches for it. They don't care about right and wrong, they just want to avoid disputes altogether.

I could go on and on about banks, Paypal, credit cards, etc. But I just don't have the time, and you all probably don't care to read it anyway.

Just know that they cannot steal money from your bank account, and they cannot deluge your credit and debit cards with charges. The most they can do here, to reclaim their money, is sue you. I think they've done that a number of times too, again, Google search it.

[AlecWest]

It's cute that the image of the disk doesn't enlarge enough to let you read the small print though....

The scan above is near actual size. When I took the software out of the mailing envelope, I didn't even need my reading glasses to see the restriction. It was bold and very readable.

[Captain Satellite]

@Captain Satellite
Paypal item 4F refers to Paypal doing all that is in their power. In other words, they can take your Paypal funds, freeze your account, or otherwise give you a negative Paypal balance. They do have authority to dip into the checking account.

That's what they did and I was pissed. I have a premier account. All it takes is one guy filing a complaint, the first thing that they do is freeze the funds, THEN begin their investigation. I knew this guy was going to be an ass**** so I transferred the funds to my checking account. Well, you know what happened next! I 'won', then they released the funds. The thing that got my blood boiling about this was that the guy had the merchandise, PayPal had my money, and I didn't have ****! I haven't sold on ebay in quite a while, only purchased. If and when I do, I think it will be U.S. Postal Money Orders. You want to read some scary sh*t, check this out...

http://www.paypalsucks.com/