interesting eBay experience

[lordsmurf]

I know you have no reason to lie, but I don't believe things happened as easily as you say. If by some wacky reason it did happen, you should have taken it up with your bank. More likely than not, the transaction was cancelled before it was completed. That can happen.

In order to direct draft an account (there is no such thing as a "reversal" on a direct deposit, as that process is one way only, with some exceptions for duplicates and sending to the wrong account), you have to send a check draft and get the appropriate signatures. What you state simply cannot happen.

FDIC, federal law, would not allow your bank to do it. Check out www.fdic.gov

[Captain Satellite]

You're right, I have no reason to lie. It did happen that easily. I didn't have a chance to take it up with anybody because the whole thing was resolved in the same day. With a Premier account you need to register a credit card. The credit card that I used was my ATM/Checking account card. When I transferred the funds into my checking account, they transferred them back. Why would you think that I would lie about this? I'm not mistaken either; it happened.

[AlecWest]

The Word of God (grin). Moses has spoken (I called Microsoft). There's good news and then there's bad news.

The good news is that Microsoft says, "Sure, it is legal for you to install a Windows XP version meant to be distributed in the Middle East and Africa."

The bad news. "If you bought a domestic version of Windows XP, customer service calls are handled free. However, when you buy an international version meant for distribution elsewhere, customer service calls cost $35.00 per incident."

And, they can tell which is which by the COA ... so there's no fooling Microsoft. So, I'll go ahead and install this version on my friend's computer. I've never called MS for support anyway since I can figure out most issues on my own ... and know "gurus" (some, here) who have the answers to those I cannot figure out.

But, I will only retract "half" of my apology to David at zTechSoftware ... since the aftermarket value of the software ($$ for customer service) is deflated. And, this is something that should be mentioned on his sales page (ie., the difference between a domestic version and an international version).

[adam]

What about when you have to call in to MS for activation, like after you re-activate it so many times? Is this considered a customer service call? If so I wouldn't accept the software. That could get expensive. I've had to call in for activation at least 10 times, and there is no way to resolve that kind of thing yourself. (Now I just use ghostimage instead of re-installing the os.)

[oldandinthe way]

PayPal can even take the money out of a seller's bank account without any prior notice.

No, they cannot. That is against the law.

Yes they can, the PayPal user agreement, a lengthy unreadable document, gives them the right.

This is one of the many reasons why you see virulent anti-PayPal statements in some Ebay auctions. They developed a user agreement which allows them to protect themselves. They can freeze the money in a PayPal account, charge your bank account and take any action against what they deem to be a violation of their rules. And the PayPal iser agrees to it all by opening an account.

[Conquest10]

Wouldn't the differences be that the OS would be in Arabic instead of English?

[adam]

Not necessarily. I worked with some orphanages in other countries and when they purchased MS Os'es they were in English and then they had to purchase their language version as an update to the software. If it was an arabic language version of the OS then I'm sure it would say that somewhere on the disc, and it'd probably be written in arabic too.

[AlanHK]

Wouldn't the differences be that the OS would be in Arabic instead of English?

The package is in English. Besides there are dozens of languages in "the Middle East and Africa", not just Arabic, which itself comes in several varieties and alphabets.

I'm pretty sure XP has the same binaries for all langauge versions. Win9x was differentiated, it was a bit of a nightmare.

[lordsmurf]

Yes they can, the PayPal user agreement, a lengthy unreadable document, gives them the right.

No, that is not something that can be covered in an agreement like that. It requires special documentation of it's own to setup a direct draft. And there is no such thing as a deposit reversal for the reasons you are stating. Other reasons, yes, but not the ones you're stating, or even anything close. It goes against FDIC, and the banks therefore cannot abide by it. Even if Paypal had something like that in their agreement (and they do not), the banks would not be able to ignore FDIC which expressedly forbids it. Paypal can try to sound all scary, but at the end of the day, they are impotent. The most they can do is freeze funds in their control, lock your accounts, and cancel any pending transactions.

Go to fdic.gov and read up on this topic.

[AlecWest]

What about when you have to call in to MS for activation, like after you re-activate it so many times? Is this considered a customer service call? If so I wouldn't accept the software. That could get expensive. I've had to call in for activation at least 10 times, and there is no way to resolve that kind of thing yourself. (Now I just use ghostimage instead of re-installing the os.)

Hmm ... didn't ask that question. Could I ask you, though, if these re-activations were after significant hardware changes? I've never had to reactivate my XP. And knowing my friend, they've got what they've got ... and have no plans to upgrade hardware (unless it's to a whole new computer). Basically, they use it to "dialup" the Internet, play games, and little else.

In any case, I gave this guy a neutral rating (he's had 8 ... with 10 other ratings, likely bad ones, mutually withdrawn). And my neutral rating simply said:

See http://alecwest.com/xp.html for my reasons behind this neutral rating.

[adam]

I've had to reactivate maybe twice because of hardware changes. The other times were because I would routinely format and reinstall the os every few months. After maybe the 10th activation I had to call in each time.

[AlecWest]

I've had to reactivate maybe twice because of hardware changes. The other times were because I would routinely format and reinstall the os every few months. After maybe the 10th activation I had to call in each time.

I've never done it myself but, actually, periodic reformats/reinstalls do make a lot of sense. A lot of "crap" can build up over time. I do a lot of regular defragging and scandisking on my Win98SE partition. So far, though, I've not done anything similar on my XP partition. But, my XP partition is pretty static. The only constant file manipulation I do is on my second hard drive used solely for video/audio captures and format switcheroos. I suppose I could reformat that occasionally since it's, otherwise, just a blank NTFS drive.

P.S. BTW, on my friend's hard disk, the original XP installation by Gateway was a FAT32 installation. Wonder why? Oh, well ... their next installation will be NTFS.

[MarcoEsc]

I don't feel a whole lot of sympathy here. You know damned well that OEM Windows is not supposed to be sold retail without a new system. ANY sales of a OEM Windows by itsself is a violation of the license. So you're bitching and moaning because the license has been violated in more ways than you originally intended?

The auction price was less than half of the normal retail price. What did you expect?

"I was trying to scam Microsoft and it turns out the guy I bought from was also scamming Microsoft. I demand justice!"

Take it up with PayPal. Take it up with eBay. Doesn't change that you were trying to buy an OS that's not supposed to be sold retail.

Reminds me of those idiots who call the cops when they get ripped off on a drug deal.

[AlecWest]

I don't feel a whole lot of sympathy here. You know damned well that OEM Windows is not supposed to be sold retail without a new system. ANY sales of a OEM Windows by itsself is a violation of the license.

Bull! Sales are made to builders all the time. The only license requirement is that hardware must accompany the sale - as it did in my case.

The auction price was less than half of the normal retail price. What did you expect?

As a North American customer, I expected a North American OEM disk.

[Lucifers_Ghost]

I don't feel a whole lot of sympathy here. You know damned well that OEM Windows is not supposed to be sold retail without a new system. ANY sales of a OEM Windows by itsself is a violation of the license. So you're bitching and moaning because the license has been violated in more ways than you originally intended?

The auction price was less than half of the normal retail price. What did you expect?

"I was trying to scam Microsoft and it turns out the guy I bought from was also scamming Microsoft. I demand justice!"

Take it up with PayPal. Take it up with eBay. Doesn't change that you were trying to buy an OS that's not supposed to be sold retail.

Reminds me of those idiots who call the cops when they get ripped off on a drug deal.

Uhhhhhmmm ... forgive my potential ignorance, but can you please provide an offical link from Microsoft that states that someone can not purchase a copy of XP WITHOUT buying a computer with it?

I have never heard of such a thing and would love to see that in print. If it is in print, then I'll eat a bug.

[AlecWest]

BTW, this is not the first time I've bought an OEM disk on eBay. It's just the first time I've bought an OEM disk meant for distribution outside of North America. When I spoke to the guy on the phone, he told me he knew most of his disks were international versions - and yet he sells them to North American customers. Legal? Yes. Shady? Definitely. I will not be buying software from this eBay seller ever again.

[Lucifers_Ghost]

BTW, this is not the first time I've bought an OEM disk on eBay. It's just the first time I've bought an OEM disk meant for distribution outside of North America. When I spoke to the guy on the phone, he told me he knew most of his disks were international versions - and yet he sells them to North American customers. Legal? Yes. Shady? Definitely. I will not be buying software from this eBay seller ever again.

Shady? Definately.

However, if you spoke with Microsoft and they said it was ok, I wouldnt really worry too much. But I agree with you, this experience would turn me off from purchasing from this person/store again. Its that "gut feeling" you cant get past.

[AlecWest]

But I agree with you, this experience would turn me off from purchasing from this person/store again. Its that "gut feeling" you cant get past.

Yup. He didn't lie about it being legal. But there's a clear lie by omission by not telling potential customers that they'll have no free tech support from Microsoft.

In the future when I buy other OEM disks on eBay, every seller I buy from will be posed the question first - whether it's a domestic or international version.

Caveat emptor, for sure.

[adam]

http://oem.microsoft.com/downloads/Public/sblicense/English_SB_License.pdf

Here is MS's system builder license. It states that oem software can be sold from one system builder to another as long as its not opened. But once its actually become part of a system it cannot be resold unless its accompanied by that system. So what AlecWest is doing is ok, and the same for the seller...in this particular case.

But OEM software cannot be sold to an end user (AlecWest's customer, NOT him) unless its accompanied by qualifying hardware. So that's why the seller has that bit about how he will include an internal cable to comply with the license restriction. Some sellers thrown in a friggin' screw. Its shady as hell and after reading the license I don't believe this practice would comply but its done up and down ebay.

[AlecWest]

If you look at the actual ebay posting in the original post, the seller says that he will throw in an internal cable to comply with the oem license.

He did.

I think this kind of practice is extremely shady but its done up and down ebay.

It's done by storefront sellers, too. The point is, Microsoft owns the software and Microsoft made the rules by which it can be sold. If they don't like the way sales are being conducted, all they have to do is change their rules. But, they've chosen not to (for reasons known only to them).

I look at it this way. If a speed sign on the highway says 65mph and I'm going 64mph, I'm within the law. And if lawmakers want to see people going 55mph, they have the power to change the speed limit any time they want to. But until they do, going 64mph is copasetic.

[adam]

Uh oh. I edited my post but not in time AlecWest. Sales from system builder (him) to system builders (you) are ok. But sales to end users are probably a violation of the license. Including a cable really makes no difference and I've never seen anything like this done in a retail setting.

I also don't see this as an example of MS not covering this behavior in their "rules." Their oem licenses clearly do cover sales to end users, and clearly do prohibit it absent the sale of meaningful hardware. This is an example of MS just not being able to police the behavior effectively because its too prevalent and not really hurting them that much.

[SLK001]

Just be sure to give him negative feedback to help inform other buyers what they may be getting into. I looked at the listing, and the box did NOT have the license restriction statement.

Since there is no statement that the photos were "for illustration purposes only", you could assume that they represented exactly what you were bidding on. Because of this "sin of omission", I would call this a classic "bait-and-switch" sale.

I believe that you would prevail in any conflict with this vendor, but it depends on the amount of aggravation that you want to put up with.

[MarcoEsc]

Uhhhhhmmm ... forgive my potential ignorance, but can you please provide an offical link from Microsoft that states that someone can not purchase a copy of XP WITHOUT buying a computer with it?

I have never heard of such a thing and would love to see that in print. If it is in print, then I'll eat a bug.

I stand corrected. A bit of research shows that Microsoft updated their licensing so that OEM Windows XP can be sold retail without hardware. Here's an article about it:
http://www.edbott.com/weblog/archives/000763.html

OEM Office still must be sold with a new PC. I found that on the Microsoft website. This also used to be the case with OEM Windows XP ... it had to be purchased with either a new PC, or "essential" hardware. But as of December of last year the licensing changed.

No need to eat that bug.

[AlecWest]

Uh oh. I edited my post but not in time AlecWest.

Ships passing in the night, hehe.

Sales from system builder (him) to system builders (you) are ok. But sales to end users are probably a violation of the license.

What if the end user is a builder of his own system? That's how I got my OEM software. But in my case, I pretty much had a new system. The "box" remained the same - but the motherboard, hard disks, video card, audio card, ethernet card, etc., etc., were all new installations. Literally, the only thing "original" about my current box is the floppy drive - which I almost never use.

Including a cable really makes no difference and I've never seen anything like this done in a retail setting.

I know three stores locally, all builder shops, that sell OEMs right over the counter - ostensibly to other builders (but who knows). But their prices are above what you can find online - and not just on eBay.

[AlecWest]

Just be sure to give him negative feedback to help inform other buyers what they may be getting into.

Too late - already gave him a neutral rating. Made an interesting discovery, too. They say you cannot change your feedback. But, they also allow you to include a URL on your feedback line (if it fits). So, I gave my http://alecwest.com/xp.html URL on the line - and that feedback can be changed any time I want to change it (wide grin).

[adam]

What if the end user is a builder of his own system?

That's ok I believe. The individual would qualify as a system builder in this case.

[Lucifers_Ghost]

Uhhhhhmmm ... forgive my potential ignorance, but can you please provide an offical link from Microsoft that states that someone can not purchase a copy of XP WITHOUT buying a computer with it?

I have never heard of such a thing and would love to see that in print. If it is in print, then I'll eat a bug.

I stand corrected. A bit of research shows that Microsoft updated their licensing so that OEM Windows XP can be sold retail without hardware. Here's an article about it:
http://www.edbott.com/weblog/archives/000763.html

OEM Office still must be sold with a new PC. I found that on the Microsoft website. This also used to be the case with OEM Windows XP ... it had to be purchased with either a new PC, or "essential" hardware. But as of December of last year the licensing changed.

No need to eat that bug.

Good. I hate bugs. They're crunchy

[AlecWest]

Adam,

BTW, thanks for stopping by in this thread. It's always good to hear your take on issues like this. I've been doing builds for a few years and this is the first time I've ever encountered this issue. But, I'm glad I decided to give this seller the benefit of the doubt and not trounce him with a negative rating. In this case, I think a neutral rating is appropriate. I've never given anyone a negative rating on eBay and hope I never have to.

[AlecWest]

Mea culpa. This is one of those "learn something new every day" experiences. I was contacted by zTechSoftware - and they indicated that OEM versions of any kind (foreign or domestic) have no free customer support. I visited several sites discussing the matter and it appears to be the truth - that free support is only available for full "retail" versions of XP - and even then, only for 57 days. After that, a consumer would have to pay $35 per incident as well.

So, I have apologized to David and will withdraw my neutral rating - once I figure out how to do it.

P.S. Crow tastes terrible. But, I have no qualms about eating crow if I deserve to eat it. I have updated my http://alecwest.com/xp.html page in that regard. And so it goes...

BUT ... I will be installing this version on Tuesday. And, if it fails activation, it will be returned for refund as Microsoft advises.

[MOVIEGEEK]

My online philosophy:
1.Use a creditcard that is not attached to your checking/savings account,that way a merchant can't drain your bank account.
2.Don't buy anything on eBay,only buy from a reputable merchant that allows returns.

Good luck AlecWest.