VHS preservation; could we drag this topic through the mud one more time?

Originally Posted by FulciLives

Only "bad" thing about the Pioneer is you get no DV/FIREWIRE/IEEE 1394 input. Not the worse thing since all digital camcorders have analog outputs but some people with digital camcorders would rather have a digital input (i.e., DV/FIREWIRE/IEEE 1394).

One advantage of 1394 on some DVD Recorders is auto chapter creation based on timecode. Chapter points can be automatically created at every record pause point or every date change. This capability is lost using the analog input.

Does the Pioneer have Playlist assemble editing?

Originally Posted by davideck

Does the Pioneer have Playlist assemble editing?

I don't even know what that is LOL

I mean mostly I am either doing a VHS/LD where I just need to trim the start and end points or a TV show where I just have to do the start/end and cut out the commercials. So I'm not doing what I consider to be "extensive" editing and I find it a breeze to do with the Pioneer.

But I haven't a clue what "Playlist assemble editing" is.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Originally Posted by FulciLives

But I haven't a clue what "Playlist assemble editing" is.

A Playlist is similar to an Edit Decision List. Playlists are one of the things that I like best about editing on the Toshiba.

Let's say you have a capture file that you divide into chapters. For example, a TV show capture file could be divided into chapters of program segments and chapters of commercial segments.

A Playlist specifies a list of chapters to be included (assembled) into a playback sequence or burned to a DVD. By including only the chapters of program segments, a DVD without commercials can be burned. Creating a Playlist does not create additional video on the HDD, nor does it delete any.

The neat part is that a Playlist can include chapters from multiple capture files. For example, if ten different home video captures each contain a birthday party chapter, then these birthday party chapters can be assembled into one Playlist and burned to DVD.

Since no original content is deleted by this process, multiple Playlists can be created which all reference different chapters within the same capture files. One Playlist could be all of the birthday parties. Another could be all of the bedtime stories, etc.

The Toshiba also lets you create a DVD made up of multiple Playlists. Each Playlist would be a separate title.

Originally Posted by gasman2

1. Am I correct in assuming that the DVD/HDD recorder does the A-D conversion ...

Yes.

Originally Posted by gasman2

2. Do these recorders have TBC circuitry, and if so how do you know if it is full frame or not?

Every DVD Recorder that I have tested had a full frame TBC/Frame Synchronizer. I think it is safe to assume that all of them do.

Originally Posted by gasman2

3. Is there any problem with passing the signal thru more than one TBC, i.e. outputting from my Panny 1980 TBC into a recorder with TBC?

That should work just fine.

Originally Posted by gasman2

4. Can these DVD/HDD units be used to record television? If so, what would the advantage of TIVO be over these units?

The subscription fee. :P

Originally Posted by gasman2

A couple of more questions:

1. Am I correct in assuming that the DVD/HDD recorder does the A-D conversion or do I need to input the already converted digital video?

The DVD recorder accepts an analog video input and records it to MPEG-2 DVD spec. The models that have a FIREWIRE connection will do the same thing i.e., convert that DIGITAL VIDEO input from a digital camcorder to MPEG-2 DVD spec. If you have a model that does not have FIREWIRE input but have a digital camcorder then it really doesn't matter that much as all digital camcorders also have analog video output.

Originally Posted by gasman2

2. Do these recorders have TBC circuitry, and if so how do you know if it is full frame or not?

Really none of the stand alone DVD recorders have a full blown TBC built-in although they do some mild form of synchronization to an extent. Some are better at this than others of course.

Originally Posted by gasman2

3. Is there any problem with passing the signal thru more than one TBC, i.e. outputting from my Panny 1980 TBC into a recorder with TBC?

There is nothing negative per se with using multiple TBC devices although each one does to an A/D to D/A conversion. So you might want to minimize using a TBC unless you think you really need it. I know your Panny AG-1980 has a built-in TBC so you probably don't need an external Full Frame TBC but then again it probably wouldn't hurt either.

Originally Posted by gasman2

4. Can these DVD/HDD units be used to record television? If so, what would the advantage of TIVO be over these units?

Well a TIVO or a DVR (like what many cable/satellite companies offer) only allow you to record but not archive. Once something is recorded onto a TIVO or DVR there is generally no good way of saving it to another format i.e., a DVD Video disc (although this is not always true as I will point out shortly). So obviously a stand alone DVD recorder gives you the option to record to a DVD Video disc. If you get a model with a built-in HDD then that gives you editing functions and makes life a lot easier in case you want to record multiple programs back-to-back that might otherwise not fit onto a single DVD disc. You can then transfer the recordings from the HDD to a DVD Video disc at your leisure.

However a special note here about DVR boxes. For instance I have COMCAST cable and my cable box is also a DVR box. If I record to the DVR from a DIGITAL CABLE CHANNEL then the recording to the DVR is a "perfect" digital back-up of the original broadcast. In fact if the original broadcast is in HDTV so too will the recording! It is not uncommon for me to record the DIGITAL CABLE CHANNELS to the DVR first (especially if HDTV) and then play it back from the DVR to record to the DVD recorder if I decide I want to keep it (and after I have watched it once in true HDTV if of course it was a HDTV broadcast). Please note that the DVR will record from ANALOG CABLE CHANNELS in a lossy form so when I record programs from ANALOG CABLE CHANNELS I record those straight to the DVD recorder even if I only intend to watch once and delete (yet another reason for the need of a DVD recorder with a built-in HDD). However if I decide I want to keep the recording at least it is already in MPEG-2 DVD spec format. If I record an ANALOG CABLE CHANNEL to the DVR first then that is one layer of compression then if I decided to play it out to the DVD recorder to record to a DVD Video disc that is a 2nd layer of compression. So for that reason all ANALOG CABLE CHANNELS go straight to my DVD recorder so I only get one layer of compression.

In short I would never buy a DVD recorder without a built-in HDD if I expect to use it for TV recording. Why? If you have no built-in HDD then you are limited to the capacity of a DVD disc. With a built-in HDD you can record hours of content then record to DVD discs when needed. It also gives you the ability to record to the HDD and watch it and then delete it without having to burn to a DVD disc.

Let me give you an example. I remember one Saturday when the Sci-Fi channel played a 6 or 8 hour block (I forget now) of UFO type related documentaries. Since I had a DVD recorder with a built-in HDD I just recorded the whole thing as one big block but used the SP (2 hour mode). Later I was able to go into the HDD and cut that recording up into 2 hour blocks so I could burn the shows onto (multiple) DVD discs. Had I not had a model with a built-in HDD then I would have been stuck doing the following: Baby sit it and swap DVD discs every two hours OR record the whole thing onto one disc using the utterly horrible and unwatchable 6/8 hour mode!

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

There is a company called SignVideo and they make high quality video equipment.

Those of us that really get into it (and have the money) have said (not I as I don't have that kind of money unfortunately) that the gear from SignVideo is "essential".

Specifically I refer to the SignVideo Single Proc Amp and the SignVideo Image Enhancer.

Now these devices are not cheap ... a combined total of $750 US Dollars for both ... but they allow correction of various video parameters not otherwise adjustable without them.

So assuming money is no object (knock on wood) a most excellent setup would include a quality S-VHS VCR (as you already have) along with a Full Frame TBC (such as the DataVideo TBC-1000) along with the two SignVideo products I just mentioned along with an excellent model stand alone DVD recorder.

Add to that the fact that you probably want to get the final product to a computer. That is easily done by burning to a DVD-RW or DVD+RW then RIPPING to a computer. There you can do any editing if need be (both VideoRedo and MPEG-VCR do frame accurate MPEG-2 DVD spec editing) along with a nice DVD authoring program (such as TMPGEnc DVD Author 2.0) so that you can create a custom menu and chapters and when you are finally all done you can burn it to a final DVD-R using ImgBurn and your computer's DVD burner. So figure about $50 give or taking for the MPEG editor and another $100 or so for a DVD authoring program.

All very expensive it you go full out.

The other possibility is that you do essentially the same thing hardware wise but that you use the Canopus ADVC-110 to capture to DV AVI on the computer ... this in lieu of the stand alone DVD recorder. The benefit here if you will is that you end up with DV AVI which is a format that is very easy to edit and is the preferred editing format if you need to do extensive editing. By extensive editing I would be referring to say home made camcorder footage that you need to cut and re-arrange and add titles and special effects etc. otherwise if you are only making copies of movies or TV shows you really aren't doing what I think of as "extensive" editing since all you need to do is trim the start and end points of the capture/recording and edit out the commercials and that is very easy basic editing. The other nice ability though of the computer method is that you can use a software MPEG-2 DVD spec encoder. This allows you to fine tune the encoding and allows you to do a true multi-pass VBR encode that can be better than the real-time encode that a stand alone DVD recorder can do since it doesn't have the benefit of doing a multi-pass approach and instead must to it once in real time.

Also with the computer method you can apply video and/or audio filters that will "clean up" the image/sound to an extent and even if you still use something like the SignVideo gear you will still find that certain things can only be fixed in software. For instance a friend of mine had a super rare cable TV recording of a TV mini-series never released onto any video format but this recording was done from a cable TV channel with very poor reception that gave it a very "static" like look but thankfully the "static" was very much "spread out" and I was able to use a software filter called "DeSpot" that removed it extremely well without destroying the overall image quality. That is just one example of a filter that no piece of hardware can mimic. However if you have the money and the eye for it the SignVideo hardware is good even in the computer capture situation as it allows you to fine tune the capture in the analog stage i.e., before it is laid down into a digital format.

I think it is important to remember that you don't need all of these hardware items to still achieve good results and even with all this hardware (especially the SignVideo stuff) you need a good eye (and an excellent monitoring TV) to really use it all properly.

There are some great posts in the RESTORATION forum ... one of which covers hardware processors ala the SignVideo gear. You might do yourself a favor and look for such posts in that section of the forums.

Also don't be afraid to take your time ... I think I read these forums on and off for a good year before I really started doing much of anything myself and started to post etc.

There is a lot to know and SO many pitfalls that it just can't all fit into a single thread or two or three etc.

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Originally Posted by gasman2

Returning to my initial purpose for this exercise, I will be working with old VHS recordings which would benefit from signal enhancement.

What type of "signal enhancement" are you looking for?

Your AG-1980 has a sharpness control. Some DVD Recorders have certain Proc Amp controls at their inputs. Most provide some amount of noise reduction.

IMO, it is best to keep the video signal path as direct as possible. Every element in a signal path is a potential source of noise and/or distortion and should therefore have a reason for being included. For example, if you are not experiencing copy-protection problems, then I see no reason for adding another TBC/Frame Synchronizer into your signal path. With the AG-1980 and a DVD/HDD Recorder, you will already have two of them.

Good all around information....This should be a STICKY!!!!

Originally Posted by gasman2

Anything I should know or look for as I prepare to buy my DVD/HDD recorder?

Something to consider is that a DVD/HDD Recorder can also serve as an External TBC/Frame Synchronizer for a PC Capture Device. Here again, Toshiba gets high marks because it has great TBC performance at its input and convenient Proc Amp controls at its output.

Copy protection problems could then be handled by something like a Hauppauge PVR-250 Capture Card, which would provide real time encoding directly to your PC hard drive for whenever you want or need to capture, edit, author, and burn on the PC.

For what it's worth I made some video samples using my Pioneer DVR-531H-s and by all reports the quality is the same as the current model (the Pioneer DVR-640H-s).

Here are the links and info about each clip:

CLIP ONE LINK: http://rapidshare.com/files/3407601/sample1.mpg
68.2 MB file size.
This is a SP (2 hour mode) recording from a VHS video of the movie ALICE SWEET ALICE. The source was a SP speed VHS pre-record which was played back on one of the better Toshiba VHS VCR units using composite video. The quality of the VHS is only so-so (although an excellent "print" of the movie) which is why I picked it.

CLIP TWO LINK: http://rapidshare.com/files/3410247/sample2.mpg
92.1 MB file size.
This is a SP (2 hour mode) recording from a VHS video of the movie NATIONAL LAMPOON'S LOADED WEAPON 1. The source was a SP speed VHS pre-record which was played back on one of the better Toshiba VHS VCR units using composite video. The quality of the VHS is excellent for the format which is why I picked it.

CLIP THREE LINK: http://rapidshare.com/files/3426527/sample3.mpg
58.4 MB file size.
This is a SP (2 hour mode) recording from a HDTV broadcast of GHOSTBUSTERS 2 via my Comcast Motorola DCT 6412 III cable box. I used S-Video to connect the cable box to the DVD recorder and of course the cable box was set to 480i output as that is the only way to record HDTV to a DVD recorder.

CLIP FOUR LINK: http://rapidshare.com/files/3428876/sample4.mpg
67.9 MB file size.
This is a SP (2 hour mode) recording from a HDTV broadcast of a recent episode of the CBS TV show CSI via my Comcast Motorola DCT 6412 III cable box. I used S-Video to connect the cable box to the DVD recorder and of course the cable box was set to 480i output as that is the only way to record HDTV to a DVD recorder.

I picked 4 clips because I wanted 2 for VHS and 2 for a "clean" source ala the HDTV broadcasts. The ALICE SWEET ALICE clip is actually the best looking "print" of the movie I've seen (actually better than the so-called remaster that was released years after this release) but the quality of the VHS was only SO-SO which is why I picked it. I also wanted to pick what I thought was a "high quality" VHS release hence the LOADED WEAPON clip. The two HDTV clips came from the HD ON-DEMAND section of Comcast.

Note that the CSI clip includes the opening moments of that episode plus the entire opening credit sequence of the show which if you know the show is a very fast paced quickly edited piece of video and the bitrate really spikes on it to accommodate this type of video content.

Let me know what you think. Oh and for best effect author and burn these clips to a DVD-RW or DVD+RW and watch them via your DVD player on your TV. After all they are DVD Video compliant clips

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

P.S.
When you click on a link it takes you to the RAPID SHARE website. Scroll down to the bottom and click on "FREE" unless you have a Premium account (but that costs money) so click on "FREE" and that takes you to another page where you will have to wait (a time counter ticks down) to start your download. Once the timer is done ticking the download link becomes visible and there you go!

I suggest an HDTV. Your DVDs will eventually be viewed on one, so why not optimize?

Well you want to use a high quality monitor such as this: CLICK HERE

Not a bad price for a production monitor.

Here is a list of other such models but as you can see the price can "get up there" with many models: CLICK HERE

- John "FulciLives" Coleman

Just to let you know ... if you capture with a DV capture card ...

One hour of capture will eat up about 13 Gigs of hard drive space.

You better have alot of hard drives or a couple of big ones somewhere.

Check out the Frys sale ... Maxtor hard drives ... 300 Gig for ... $60 bucks.