GV-USB2: lots of frame drops with AmaRecTV (VirtualDub okay)

[camilofabregas]

Hi everyone!

I'm working on digitizing some old family VHS-C tapes and am running into issues using my IO-DATA GV-USB2 alongside AmaRecTV 3.10. I'm getting an incredibily high amount of frame drops, to the point where I think it's not my (not great) setup but something badly configured in the process. And I say this because I've also been using VirtualDub 1.9.11 with much better results. The thing is that VirtualDub gives me audio issues on not-so-good tapes (a/v unsync or chipmunk audio), and it seems like AmaRecTV is the go-to if you have a GV-USB2. So I'd like to get that working properly.

Finding an S-VHS VCR or a dedicated TBC is nearly impossible where I live, so I am locked into this setup for now. And I know it's not the proper setup, but I'm very confortable with the results VirtualDub is giving me if it weren't for the audio issues. If I can achieve those frame drop/insert numbers using AmaRecTV + the audio/video sync benefits it provides, then I'd be super stoked.

Setup:
- Samsung SV-C140N (6-head Hi-Fi, Composite output only, no S-Video).
- I-O DATA GV-USB2 (Windows 11 version package).
- SV-C140N ---composite---> GV-USB2 ---usb---> Windows 11 PC

I did a small test with both AmaRecTV 3.10 and VirtualDub 1.9.11 using the same tape, and these are my results:
- AmaRecTV shows 30 dropped frames in the report file (35 second video)
- VirtualDub shows 0 dropped frames and 4 frames inserted (51 second video)

[Attachment 92540 - Click to enlarge]

I'll provide both files and the report in the post so you can check for yourself.

My settings in AmaRecTV 3.10:
Video Device: GV-USB2, Analog Capture
Input: Composite
Format: w=720, h=480, fps=29.97, fcc=YUY2, bit=16
Audio: GV-USB2, Analog Capture (also tried WaveIn, same results)
Codec: Lagarith (Lossless)
Audio Format: Uncompressed
Priority: High
Use Null Frame: Checked

I've tried EVERYTHING, from saving the files to both my drives, using different USB ports on my computer, disabling internet, disabling services, using HuffYuv instead of Lagarith, compatibility modes, run as admin, you name it. Since VirtualDub doesn't give me this amount of frame drops, one would assume that there is a setting or something on my Windows PC that's causing an issue with AmaRecTV.

Thank you in advance for your help!

[Sharc]

Just briefly: Look carefully stepping through the frames or fields. Your VDub has many ugly field glitches, and dropped frames as well. It just doesn't report these properly.
And as long as the VCR ist adjusting its tracking the comparison is questionable.

[rgr]

Setup:
- Samsung SV-C140N (6-head Hi-Fi, Composite output only, no S-Video).
- I-O DATA GV-USB2 (Windows 11 version package).
- SV-C140N ---composite---> GV-USB2 ---usb---> Windows 11 PC

1. It's not very wise to use the composite input in GV-USB2 (and Hauppauge USB-Live) - it's MUCH better to use a DVD recorder as a composite->SVideo converter (there are many more advantages to this solution).
2. AmarecTV always drops some frames even if it doesn't report them, VirtualDub works better, but you have a rather archived version (32-bit?).
3. Settings for VDubs:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/416658-Nero-Video-Grabber-vs-Hauppauge-WinTV-USBli...e2#post2778534

[Sharc]

2. AmarecTV always drops some frames even if it doesn't report them, VirtualDub works better, but you have a rather archived version (32-bit?).

Nonsense as a general statement, and not my experience. And by the way some member(s) even insist on using the legacy Vdub 1.9.11 for reliable capturing.....

[rgr]

[QUOTE=Sharc;2798086]

2. AmarecTV always drops some frames even if it doesn't report them, VirtualDub works better, but you have a rather archived version (32-bit?).

Nonsense as a general statement, and not my experience.

Checked, confirmed.

And by the way some member(s) insist on using the legacy Vdub 1.9.11 for reliable capturing.....

And that's nonsense.

[ProWo]

Use OBS-Studio instead.
https://www.videohelp.com/software/OBS-Studio

[rgr]

OBS is probably the worst program for this purpose.

[Sharc]

@camilofabregas:
AmarecTV settings: Tab Graph 1 (Device) tick 'UseClock'. From your log you seem to have it deselected.


[Attachment 92541 - Click to enlarge]

And in the Tab 'Recording' set the framerate to 999

[Attachment 92542 - Click to enlarge]

[lollo]

2. AmarecTV always drops some frames even if it doesn't report them, VirtualDub works better, but you have a rather archived version (32-bit?).

False.

OBS is probably the worst program for this purpose.

Correct.

[Alwyn]

@Camilo, it's probably your tapes and/or your VCR. I just ran some tests on a classic GV and the Win11 version on Amarec and VDub 1911. Without stabilisation, all captures were running like a dog's breakfast; awful. I got upwards of 400 inserts over 10 minutes with every combination. My tape must be a shocker because I was playing it on a JVC SVHS VCR (non-TBC model)!

Then, I stabilised the video with a Pioneer 645 DVD recorder and repeated the tests. Every capture was perfect, except the GV Win11 on Vdub; I got one insert.

On other tapes, I have much less, and in some cases almost zero, inserts even when not using a stabiliser.

The moral of the story: you need a stabiliser. A quite satisfactory option is a DVD recorder. Ideally, a TBC but good luck with finding one that doesn't cost you a bomb and actually works with all your tapes.

There are many DVD recorders you can use; Pioneer, Sony and Panasonic are the brands to look for. Have a look at my website here for some examples.

[Sharc]

There are many DVD recorders you can use; Pioneer, Sony and Panasonic are the brands to look for. Have a look at my website here for some examples.

@camilofabregas: At the same time you may also look for a S-VHS VCR with internal TBC as an alternative to the DVD recorder in passthrough. It will avoid some of the pitfalls (level issues like like black pedestal of NTSC, blown out brights) of the passthrough solution. These days it may be difficult though to find a 'S-VHS with TBC' model in good working condition from a trusted seller at a reasonable price, so the risk is probably lower when you take the DVD recorder passthrough route and be prepared for some little learning for achieving "best" results.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/403635-Panasonic-DVD-recorder-passthrough-settings...15-DMR-ES25%29

[CaptureCraft]

IO-DATA GV-USB2 is a mediocre at best card. As suggested above, you need a DVD recorder to include into your chain in a pass-through mode.
However, you will still get many missing frames, much less then now though.
The reason you get different results with different software is because different software handles missing frames differently.
Unlike AmaRecTV and OBS, VirtualDub has direct control over its behaviour. You can explicitly define there if you want it to "conceal" missing frames by adding duplicate ones or you want it to record "as is" and to have your video and audio out of sync because of missing frames.

[lollo]

IO-DATA GV-USB2 is a mediocre at best card.

False. Do you have facts supporting your statements?

As suggested above, you need a DVD recorder to include into your chain in a pass-through mode. However, you will still get many missing frames, much less then now though.

Not really, a DVD Recorder does not help much with dropped frames because bad tapes. It helps in stabilizing the signal at intra frame and only marginally across frames. Do you have any example of bad tapes where all time base errors have been fixed by using only a DVD-Recorder?

The reason you get different results with different software is because different software handles missing frames differently.

Yes and no, the mechanism is the same: https://learn.microsoft.com/it-it/windows/win32/directshow/avi-mux-filter?redirectedfrom=MSDN: the AVI file format doesn't have per-frame timestamps, just an average frame rate. So when a frame arrives, the software has to decide whether to place this frame in the next "slot", or insert a "dropped frame" marker and put the frame in the slot after. If the source filter's timestamps don't match the media type's frame rate something needs to be done.

The implementation and corrective actions may vary across the capture software. Here the different engines that the main capture softwares adopt (using a Hauppauge USB-Live 2 in this example):

AmarecTV 310


VirtualDub 1.9.11


VirtualVCR 2.6.9

Unlike AmaRecTV and OBS, VirtualDub has direct control over its behaviour.

Unlike what? AmarecTV has an excellent management of dropped and inserted frames! Playing with VirtualDub settings only leads to a/v asynch, and is very sentive to specific cards and specific operating systems.

You can explicitly define there if you want it to "conceal" missing frames by adding duplicate ones or you want it to record "as is" and to have your video and audio out of sync because of missing frames.

Where is this option in VirtualDub setting? Theoretically you can only disable the dropping if a frame arrive too early (first option in time settings, under "Capture timing options" / "General options") and/or disable the insertion of a frame is two captured frames are too much distant in tiem. Pratically, it never works, and the frames are dropped anyhow without any report. The insertion mechanism is a bit more complicated. AmarecTV has a detailed report file about why a frame is inserted, which can be as consequence of a previous dropped frame, or not. By reading and understanding it, you can understand exactely what happened during the capturing operations.

In the resynch mode, only the option to resample the audio is sometimes useful.

Once more, VirtualDub core engine has been designed when capturing audio and video was performed by two different cards, each of time running with their own local clock, whose long term jitter and phase noise introduce a/v asynch. For modern cards, just use AmarecTV.

[CaptureCraft]

I worked enough with IO-DATA GV-USB2 until I sold it. There were always tens of missing frames even with good DVD. Once I switched to professional cards there were no more missing frames.
Good DVD recorder helps with colour correction, jitter, frame stabilizer (frame TBC), and line stabilizer (line TBC in several known DVD recorders).

If you do not overload your OS, I/O, there are never dropped frames. I.e. if your card captured a frame, it will be saved to the file.
So, if you set your VD2 to NOT to add and NOT to drop any frame, then the only reason to have audio and video out of sync is the card, which misses frames.
And if other software keeps them in sync, then it is because it adds duplicated/generated/reconstructed/whatever frames.

So, why would care why some software added or dropped the frame?!?
I want all my frames to be genuine ones. All you need is to have good signal and good card. The software won't matter anymore.

[lollo]

I worked enough with IO-DATA GV-USB2 until I sold it. There were always tens of missing frames even with good DVD.

False, nobody never experienced that.

Good DVD recorder helps with colour correction, jitter, frame stabilizer (frame TBC), and line stabilizer (line TBC in several known DVD recorders).

Line TBC and Frame TBC are misleading terms. Colour correction with DVD recorder is simply non existing. Correction of istantaneous jitter inside a frame is only present in some Pioneer DVD Recorders (one of the field shifted in the vertical direction, sometimes both), not in the most used (Panasonic). Stabilization across several frames is marginal.

If you do not overload your OS, I/O, there are never dropped frames. I.e. if your card captured a frame, it will be saved to the file.

False. If you work with tape (not DVDs) and they are not in good shape, there are dropped frames!

So, if you set your VD2 to NOT to add and NOT to drop any frame, then the only reason to have audio and video out of sync is the card, which misses frames.

No.

And if other software keeps them in sync, then it is because it adds duplicated/generated/reconstructed/whatever frames.

Whene a frame does not arrive in time oe arrive too early, some action is necessary to keep audio and video in synch. But if you capture DVDs instead of tapes, you may miss that.

So, why would care why some software added or dropped the frame?!?

Because is the key of the analog capture!

I want all my frames to be genuine ones. All you need is to have good signal and good card. The software won't matter anymore.

The "good signal" is not always present, and to have that the DVD-Recorder option only is sometimes not enough. And the software always matter, because it can introduce errors on its own.

[CaptureCraft]

It looks like you've never experienced perfect captures without a single missing frame.
And all my statements are true because all was tested.
About colour correction - check this tread:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/420483-black-and-white-image-with-horizontal-purpl...-green-stripes
My advice helped.

P.S. Not sure why you're accusing me of capturing DVDs. Is it just to diminish my opinion?

Whene a frame does not arrive in time oe arrive too early, some action is necessary to keep audio and video in synch. But if you capture DVDs instead of tapes, you may miss that.

If you would ever saw the VD capture logs, you would know the frames never ever come in time. For most crappiest cards the time varies from 0 to a few hundreds milliseconds between frames.
For example IO-DATA GV-USB2 spits out frames with 30-30-30-60ms in average pattern for PAL video. I still have some old logs.

[Sharc]

I worked enough with IO-DATA GV-USB2 until I sold it. There were always tens of missing frames even with good DVD.

Not my experience. Something must have been very odd with your setup. And tapes are captured as a sequence of fields. The woven interlaced frames are made by the firmware from the fields.

Good DVD recorder helps with colour correction

It's rather the opposite: DVD recorders may introduce levels issues and hence color issues, like blown out brights or worst case clipping with loss of details, but yes they help against line wiggle and flagging and in case of composite video they help with Y/C separation.

[CaptureCraft]

I worked enough with IO-DATA GV-USB2 until I sold it. There were always tens of missing frames even with good DVD.

Not my experience. Something must have been very odd with your setup.

How did you verify that you had no missing frames?

Good DVD recorder helps with colour correction

It's rather the opposite: DVD recorders may introduce levels issues and hence color issues, like blown out brights and loss of details, but yes they help against line wiggle and flagging.

Yes, some DVDs can change the level. However, I don't see direct connection to color or any other issues. It could be just not good unit.
Btw, to bring luma to the desired levels I use Sony DVD because it has settings to separately adjust (enhance) white and black levels in both up and down directions.

[camilofabregas]

Thank you all for your answers. It seems like my best option here is to get a DVD Recorder to achieve a VCR --composite--> DVD --s-video--> GV-USB2 workflow. TBCs (wether it's in a SVHS VCR or separatedly like a Panasonic ES-10/15) are not possible for me to get.

Still, is it normal for AmaRecTV to perform that bad in my case? I wasn't aware that VirtualDub doesn't report frame drops correctly, but even so the transfers using VDub look much more smooth to my eyes. Those very obvious "frame skips" that I can see on the AmaRecTV test file are not present in the VDub file.

@Sharc : I didn't have "Use Clock" enabled but I did have 999 framerate in the Recording tab. Enabling Use Clock made no difference @Sharc.

So I guess I have two questions:

1. Is the VDub capture actually better than AmaRecTV's? To my eyes, it definitely is. Even if VDub is "underreporting", the report file for AmaRecTV report file seems to be very accurate if I look at the test file. And I can't see that many skipped frames on my VDub file, IMO. If that's the case, is there anything in my setup (software) that may be affecting my AmaRecTV's captures? Or is it just that AmaRecTV doesn't handle frame drops as good as VDub?

2. I can get a Sony RDR-GX350 DVD, which is present in this list (thanks @Alwyn). Would that be a 'good enough' solution if I'm not looking to achieve 0/0 frame drops/inserts on every single tape I want to digitize? Would I gain a lot of I somehow find a SVHS VCR (with no TBC) to connect to a DVD of this kind (not ES10/15) using S-Video?

[Sharc]

How did you verify that you had no missing frames?

Comparing, counting frames/fields. It was for testing and experimenting only as I usually capture tapes but copy/recompress DVDs - if at all.

[CaptureCraft]

How did you verify that you had no missing frames?

Comparing, counting frames/fields. It was for testing and experimenting only as I usually capture tapes but copy/recompress DVDs - if at all.

Comparing to what?
If you made a couple of short clips for comparison, then there is a good chance there will no missing frames.
However, when your video is 2-3 hours, then comparison gives you true results.

[Alwyn]

@Camilo, just to confirm my earlier hypothesis, with a good tape (commercial) I had zero drops with GVW11 and Amarec.

[Sharc]

It looks like we've scared off the OP ....

Edit: Sorry @camilofabregas. I missed your post #19. My bad, shame on me.

[lollo]

It looks like you've never experienced perfect captures without a single missing frame.

The opposite, I aim to perfect quality with 0 dropped and 0 inserted. Most of my personal captures are perfect because the tapes are in pristine shape.

But not all tapes are like that and sometimes you must accept a dropped or inserted frames, even with a perfect workflow. To minimize the effect or to somehow repair it in post-processing, you have to understand the reasons and the mechanism.

And all my statements are true because all was tested.

All your statement are non sense!

About colour correction - check this tread:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/420483-black-and-white-image-with-horizontal-purpl...-green-stripes
My advice helped.

Here for example, you show that you do not understand what a colour correction is.

P.S. Not sure why you're accusing me of capturing DVDs. Is it just to diminish my opinion?

You mentioned that, and out of contest.

If you would ever saw the VD capture logs, you would know the frames never ever come in time. For most crappiest cards the time varies from 0 to a few hundreds milliseconds between frames.

What VD capture logs? It does not exist!
BTW, the frames arrive at their specific frame rate; when not (few of them), they are dropped and lost or dropped and compensated later by a repetition of a captured frames (inserted frame).
Few hundred milliseconds? The PAL frame rate is 50 fields per seconds, i.e. the fileds arrive every 20msec!

For example IO-DATA GV-USB2 spits out frames with 30-30-30-60ms in average pattern for PAL video.

Are you serious?

I still have some old logs.

AmarecTV logs you mean? Post them, and we will check them together.

[lollo]

Still, is it normal for AmaRecTV to perform that bad in my case?

Difficult to answer without capturing with your exact worflow and tape.

I wasn't aware that VirtualDub doesn't report frame drops correctly,

Although less accurate than AmarecTV, generally VirtualDub does not report if you instruct it to do so; hence not a VirtualDub issue here.

but even so the transfers using VDub look much more smooth to my eyes.

Did you check the frame/field architecture with the two videos side by side moving across frames with AviSynth? (I did not)

1. Is the VDub capture actually better than AmaRecTV's? To my eyes, it definitely is. Even if VDub is "underreporting", the report file for AmaRecTV report file seems to be very accurate if I look at the test file. And I can't see that many skipped frames on my VDub file, IMO. If that's the case, is there anything in my setup (software) that may be affecting my AmaRecTV's captures? Or is it just that AmaRecTV doesn't handle frame drops as good as VDub?

The system should be configured to reduce risk of dropping frames, i.e. modern and optimized stand alone PC with no internet or anti virus running nor OS update in execution; capture to a second internal hard drive or at least use a dedicated partition on the primary, stop all background running process, etc. There are plenty of posts about it. I do not even move the mouse while capturing.
On the software side, just to be sure to capture YUV 4:2:2, interlaced, lossless with HuffYUV (but Lagarith should be ok).
If the problem is baked inside the tape, only a high-end workflow with external TBC (in addition to the TBC inside the VCR or inside the DVD-Recorder) can mitigate the issues.

2. I can get a Sony RDR-GX350 DVD, which is present in this list (thanks @Alwyn). Would that be a 'good enough' solution if I'm not looking to achieve 0/0 frame drops/inserts on every single tape I want to digitize? Would I gain a lot of I somehow find a SVHS VCR (with no TBC) to connect to a DVD of this kind (not ES10/15) using S-Video?

The only way to minimize drops for bad tapes is to stabilize the signal with an external TBC, not a DVD-Recorder.
S-Video has no relation with time base integrity of the signal to be captures.
A "good enough" solution would be 1 or 2 dropped/inserted frames per hour.

[rgr]

I worked enough with IO-DATA GV-USB2 until I sold it. There were always tens of missing frames even with good DVD. Once I switched to professional cards there were no more missing frames.

Which ones?

So, if you set your VD2 to NOT to add and NOT to drop any frame, then the only reason to have audio and video out of sync is the card, which misses frames.

Probably not necessarily. VirtualDub muxes video and audio signals not necessarily based on timestamps from the card.
Someday I'll finally get together and capture the mkv with the original taimestams and see what comes out of the card/grabber.

The software won't matter anymore.

I mean, I mean. Software does not capture the signal unchanged. In VirtualDub you can set a lot of things, in AmarecTV practically nothing and in fact it is not known how it works and why it always drops frames.

[rgr]

2. I can get a Sony RDR-GX350 DVD, which is present in this list (thanks @Alwyn). Would that be a 'good enough' solution if I'm not looking to achieve 0/0 frame drops/inserts on every single tape I want to digitize? Would I gain a lot of I somehow find a SVHS VCR (with no TBC) to connect to a DVD of this kind (not ES10/15) using S-Video?

Yes.
You can read this post (or the entire thread) to get an idea of what to expect from a given setup.
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/416658-Nero-Video-Grabber-vs-Hauppauge-WinTV-USBli...e2#post2778487

[Sharc]

1. Is the VDub capture actually better than AmaRecTV's? To my eyes, it definitely is....

Well, look at the vertical field glitches ("jumps") of the Vdub capture, for example frames 509 ...514 (and others). These are very laborious to fix in post.
Your Amarec capture is better (=more stable) in this respect but has some drops instead (I am just lazy to make a side-by-side comparison). There is definitely room for improvement for both. If you have a DVD recorder at hand just try it in passthrough and see what improvement (or other issues) you get.....

[rgr]

1. Is the VDub capture actually better than AmaRecTV's? To my eyes, it definitely is....

Well, look at the vertical field glitches ("jumps") of the Vdub capture, for example frames 509 ...514 (and others).

They are from VCR and have nothing to do with the program. This is how the tracking set up.

These are very laborious to fix in post.

Easy to fix.

[Sharc]

Easy to fix.

So please fix his Vdub capture