Which VCR for PAL VHS capture (Composite and/or DdD/MISRC)

[rgr]

I loaded both files from post #46 into VirtualDub and honestly I can't see any white color clipping (VirtualDub set to Rec601, limited)

[lollo]

Why it's an advantage to the standard workflow? I always thought keeping the least devices in the capturing chain is good. Here the D/A conversion on output is avoided and direct A/D conversion is being captured through HDMI.

I meant that if you use a VCR with TBC, you only have 1 A/D conversion (outside what happens in the VCR itself). When we compare your 2 captures, the standard flow is penalized. The "alternative" method includes TBC and A/D in the same device from what I have understood from your description.

I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
I did that to this EH65 sample below.

Not what has been clipped during capture. In general, when you see a spike a Y = 255 it means that details are lost, and not recoverable. You can brig back data that are in the 235-255 range and that are clipped by the player or by the software or by the processing. For example if you need a RGB conversion somehow, you shrink the Y > 235 and well position the details that otherwise will be missed.

Well, using the ES-10 is just plugging in an extra device and doing an extra D/A conversion, right? Using the EH65 (and capturing from HDMI) is just one A/D conversion.

Yes, see my answer to Krazern. In general, if the DVD recorder acting as capture device ALSO features TBC correction, you have everything in one device, Then you can compare with the standard workflow using a VCR with TBC and a classic capture card. If you need to add a stabilization device as Krazern is doing in the standard workflow, the comparison is somehow unfair.

In your screenshot I can see that the data is not lost, it is just in the range 235-255, right?

Data in the reange 235-255 can be easily recovered. But when you have a spike at 255 or a little bit lower, you already lost details, and these cannot be recovered.

[lollo]

I loaded both files from post #46 into VirtualDub and honestly I can't see any white color clipping (VirtualDub set to Rec601, limited)

If you setp some frame forward you will see the accumulation of the whites: hyst.mp4

[rgr]

I loaded both files from post #46 into VirtualDub and honestly I can't see any white color clipping (VirtualDub set to Rec601, limited)

If you setp some frame forward you will see the accumulation of the whites:
[Attachment 82925 - Click to enlarge]

OK, now I see.
Apparently the S7500 reacts faster to brightness jumps, the J668 does it slower. But is it worse? Is it better to see 1% more or better to see 99% clearer?
(this time the histogram is set to full range and s7500 on the left)

[lollo]

But is it worse? Is it better to see 1% more or better to see 99% clearer?

Intrinsic quality consideration apart, what has not been lost can be "recentered" and the rest can be "cleared". What is lost, is lost. In this specific case is not that important, because we are talking about some stripes in the white lines; in other cases you can miss important details.

[Sharc]

... I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
I did that to this EH65 sample below.

No, you didn't really recover much. The clipped luma has just been shifted down to Y=216, but is still clipped as you can see from the solid lines at Y=216. The clipping is not catastrophic, buts it's there, killing details and gradients in that area.

Edit: and the colors are too bluish. But that's a different story. Something for post processing. In RGB it's mainly the blue which gets clipped.

Edit2: Attachment 2 added, same as above but correctly scaled.

[Alwyn]

@Krazern, I haven't been following closely so may have missed it, but are you using the proc amp in your capture software to adjust your levels before capture?

[Krazern]

... I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
I did that to this EH65 sample below.

No, you didn't really recover much. The clipped luma has just been shifted down to Y=216, but is still clipped as you can see from the solid lines at Y=216. The clipping is not catastrophic, buts it's there, killing details and gradients in that area.

Edit: and the colors are too bluish. But that's a different story. Something for post processing. In RGB it's mainly the blue which gets clipped.

Of course i didn't recover much but the "standard" method didn't as well. Thats my point here.

https://imgsli.com/MzA5MTE0

[Krazern]

@Krazern, I haven't been following closely so may have missed it, but are you using the proc amp in your capture software to adjust your levels before capture?

In BMD media express i just capture the HDMI signal without changing it. I adjust it later in post processing

[lollo]

... I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
I did that to this EH65 sample below.

No, you didn't really recover much. The clipped luma has just been shifted down to Y=216, but is still clipped as you can see from the solid lines at Y=216. The clipping is not catastrophic, buts it's there, killing details and gradients in that area.

Edit: and the colors are too bluish. But that's a different story. Something for post processing. In RGB it's mainly the blue which gets clipped.

Of course i didn't recover much but the "standard" method didn't as well. Thats my point here.

https://imgsli.com/MzA5MTE0

You reversed the images (on the left is the E65). In the standard method there are (marginally) more details in the white areas.

[Sharc]

... I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
I did that to this EH65 sample below.

No, you didn't really recover much. The clipped luma has just been shifted down to Y=216, but is still clipped as you can see from the solid lines at Y=216. The clipping is not catastrophic, buts it's there, killing details and gradients in that area.

Edit: and the colors are too bluish. But that's a different story. Something for post processing. In RGB it's mainly the blue which gets clipped.

Of course i didn't recover much but the "standard" method didn't as well. Thats my point here.

https://imgsli.com/MzA5MTE0

Once the signal gets clipped anywhere along the workflow (camera, player, passthrough device, capture device) one cannot recover it. Clipped is clipped, lost is lost. Clipping of noise spikes and halos are accepted though.

[lollo]

@Krazern, I haven't been following closely so may have missed it, but are you using the proc amp in your capture software to adjust your levels before capture?

In BMD media express i just capture the HDMI signal without changing it. I adjust it later in post processing

You can't adjust. You should avoid clipping whites and crushing blacks at capture stage. Check the doom'9 german forum, there are a lot of indication about the brigthness issues with the "alternative" methods. German users Sharc and Bogilein can support you

[Krazern]

... I meant that if i try to adjust brightness and contrast in e.g vdub i can recover details in whites that look blown (not in the range?).
I did that to this EH65 sample below.

No, you didn't really recover much. The clipped luma has just been shifted down to Y=216, but is still clipped as you can see from the solid lines at Y=216. The clipping is not catastrophic, buts it's there, killing details and gradients in that area.

Edit: and the colors are too bluish. But that's a different story. Something for post processing. In RGB it's mainly the blue which gets clipped.

Of course i didn't recover much but the "standard" method didn't as well. Thats my point here.

https://imgsli.com/MzA5MTE0

You reversed the images (on the left is the E65). In the standard method there are (marginally) more details in the white areas.

I didn't, you can see it by the head switching line because HDMI route captures whole frame here

[lollo]

I didn't, you can see it by the head switching line because HDMI route captures whole frame here

You did it, the naming on the top does not match. BTW the extra lines capture by the HDMI route are not that good anyhow.

[Krazern]

I didn't, you can see it by the head switching line because HDMI route captures whole frame here

You did it, the naming on the top does not match. BTW the extra lines capture by the HDMI route are not good anyhow.

Check the bottom right corner, the switching line is longer on EH65 capture.

[lollo]

You do not seem to realize, I give up (is not that important, what needed has been said)

[Krazern]

You do not seem to realize, I give up (is not that important, what needed has been said)

I uploaded edited EH65 single frame to comparsion .
Here are the images.

[lollo]

Last attempt. From your sources j668.avi (Hauppauge USB-Live 2) and J668-EH65.avi (DMR-EH65):