Which VCR for PAL VHS capture (Composite and/or DdD/MISRC)

[Name]

Hello,

I want to dive into the VHS digitalizing process.
As I have 0 equipment, beside my tapes, I need to start from scratch.

My first attempts and learning I want to do with an "I-O Data GV-USB2" capture device.
Later on, I want to change to MISRC and VHS-Decode.

Preferable, I would like to get a Sony as apparently the RF test points are easy to access.

On YouTube I saw that the "Sony SLV-750HF" is recommended as one of the best.

But as I'm located in Europe I would need a PAL VCR and also a device which I could get on the second hand market "easy".

Any VCR you can recommend?

Which VCRs are you guys using?

Thanks!

[dellsam34]

Don't take any video on youtube seriously, There is nothing special about that VCR, What's special about a VCR for conventional tape capturing is the quality of signal processing like TBC, comb filtering, S-Video output, High tolerance precision mechanism, Sadly those features are mostly available on S-VHS VCRs.

While any VCR should work fine for VHSdecode since the electronics are bypassed, the quality mechanism requirement still stands, There are few regular VHS VCRs that match the quality of a S-VHS deck in terms of built quality of the mechanism, But since you're just starting, I would grab the cheapest working VCR you can get your hands on and get familiar with the process, Once you feel comfortable with the process you can then look for a better VCR if you are not satisfied with the results, vhsdecode is not a simple process, there is a lot of tweaking to be done.

[Name]

What if I can get one of these JVCs:

JVC HR-S6600 (70€)
JVC HR-S7500E (170€)

JVC HR-S9500 (270€)

Are the prices reasonable for working devices?

The 6600 and 7500 are without and the 9500 with TBC, correct?

[lollo]

JVC HR-S9500 (270€)

One of the best.

Buy from trusted sources, because actual conditions are important; i.e https://vcrshop.com/shop/?s=jvc+9500&post_type=product&filter_signal-standard=pal&quer...al-standard=or

[Name]

You say "one of the best", on the other hand I read on DigitalFAQ "not recommended".

I get it, plastic gears are a point of failure.

Now the question is, what would be a better affordable solution?

Any indicator I can check before getting the VCR to see if the gears are already worn off?

[lollo]

You say "one of the best", on the other hand I read on DigitalFAQ "not recommended".

That statement on DigitalFAQ is false. Search the german doom9 forum for recommended PAL machines: https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/forum/index.php?board/29-analoges-video-capturing/&..._x_tr_pto=wapp (*)

I have one of them and know other people using it with excellent results. If you search the DigitalFAQ forums, you will see that some users prefer it over the S9600 (included me) because less aggressive (older) chroma noise reduction.

I get it, plastic gears are a point of failure.

Like any other device.

Now the question is, what would be a better affordable solution?

The VCR is by far the most important element in the capture chain, and where 95% of the quality comes from. Do not "save" money on it.

If your tape are in good shape the capture card you plan to use it is ok, together with a Hauppauge USB-Live 2 (even marginally better). Otherwise you may need an external TBC.

Any indicator I can check before getting the VCR to see if the gears are already worn off?

You can ask to seller specific technical questions, but then you have to rely on his answers. It will eliminate resellers obviusly knowing little about VCRs, but not somebody lying. It is always better to have a "return policy"

edit: (*) here and in german doom9 forum, in particular search posts from knowledgeable user Bogilein

[Name]

together with a Hauppauge USB-Live 2 (even marginally better).

Why is this one better compared to the "I-O Data GV-USB2"?


What is the difference between these 3 models:
JVC HR-S9500
JVC HR-S9500E
JVC HR-S9500EK

No letter: International
E: European market
EK: UK market

Is there any technical difference? Regarding the power supply, would the E model be better for the EU?

[lollo]

Why is this one better compared to the "I-O Data GV-USB2"?

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/406066-What-is-best-capture-device/page3#post2660565

What is the difference between these 3 models:
JVC HR-S9500
JVC HR-S9500E
JVC HR-S9500EK

No letter: International
E: European market
EK: UK market

Is there any technical difference? Regarding the power supply, would the E model be better for the EU?

Search and read the (f) manuals

[dellsam34]

On my book, any S-VHS VCR with TBC in a good working condition is recommended for conventional capture, Although I prefer late models for the easiness of repair, but that has nothing to do with playback.

[Name]

@dellsam34:
If we say I would spend up to 300 €, which S-VHS VCR with TBC would you recommend me?

I have to say, I'm struggling to find a VCR release database where I could filter by features or year.

[dellsam34]

Again any S-VHS VCR with line TBC, JVC happen to be the most produced, They invented the format.

[lollo]

I have to say, I'm struggling to find a VCR release database where I could filter by features or year.

You do not like to search by yourself, right? Not a complete database, but some good info here

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/414871-Best-VCR-opinion#post2738885

https://gleitz-info.translate.goog/forum/index.php?thread/48526-%C3%BCbersicht-%C3%BCb..._x_tr_pto=wapp

https://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=79781&d=1717960709

[rgr]

I've copied a couple of tapes with TBC and in the vast majority of cases it causes the image to shake (sometimes or often).
Isn't this TBC overrated?
Could the DMR-EH575/585 as passthrough be the cause?

[Name]

Well, it may look like that my questions are clumsy, but the last couple of days I have been crawling the internet for information and watched dozens of YouTube videos.
I just have the feeling that there is no absolute truth to this topic. It starts with the VCR, continues with the capture device and ends with the software.
Whenever I think I got what I needed, I check a different forum, and the opposite gets recommended.

Then I read that the "JVC HR-S9500" is at the top, and yes, definitely get one. Other opinions are that they are clearly overrated, they like to eat the tapes and as they are so overhyped all the units you find on the second hand market had been already sold 10 times.

I always hear that the VCR doesn't play a role, but for that, there are a lot of different recommendations on the web.

Thanks for this list (https://gleitz.info/forum/index.php?thread/48526-%C3%BCbersicht-%C3%BCber-alle-jvc-pan...r-deutschland/), even when trying, I couldn't find it.


I guess in the end, I will get a JVC HR-S9500EK plus an I-O Data GV-USB2, and put a stop to this search.

[Sharc]

I've copied a couple of tapes with TBC and in the vast majority of cases it causes the image to shake (sometimes or often).
Isn't this TBC overrated?
Could the DMR-EH575/585 as passthrough be the cause?

Enabling TBC of the VCR plus using a DMR in passthrough may be a problem. Try disabling the TBC of the VCR and let the DMR do the "TBC", or enable TBC in the VCR and skip the DMR passthrough.

[lollo]

I've copied a couple of tapes with TBC and in the vast majority of cases it causes the image to shake (sometimes or often).
Isn't this TBC overrated?

Which TBC? The one in the VCR? Sometimes the TBCs in the VCRs introduce a vertical shift of one of the the fields (rarely both), especially when compensating for drop outs. The same may happen with a DVD Recorder in pass-through mode. But for tapes in nice conditions, we are talking about few frames affected.

edit: as Sharc properly said, enable just one TBC (VCR or DVD Recorder)

[Sharc]

I just have the feeling that there is no absolute truth to this topic. It starts with the VCR, continues with the capture device and ends with the software.
Whenever I think I got what I needed, I check a different forum, and the opposite gets recommended.

Bogileins post here said it all (bottom line: there is no universally "best"):
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/414871-Best-VCR-opinion#post2738885

I guess in the end, I will get a JVC HR-S9500EK plus an I-O Data GV-USB2, and put a stop to this search.

Good decision. You won't be wrong with it. Nothing excels your own experience (or 'learning by doing').

[lollo]

there are a lot of different recommendations on the web

You should trust sources showing facts and concrete results, rather than "blah blah blah", myths and legends, and "opinions". There are several around in the first category, much much much more in the second.

[cholla]

The OP Name did not complain about me hijacking this topic.
I guess for some reason doing it stepped on dellsam34's toes.
So considered my question Deleted.

[dellsam34]

You should start your own thread, this is not the topic discussed here.

[cholla]

Deleted

[dellsam34]

It's called hijacking a thread.

[rgr]

Then I read that the "JVC HR-S9500" is at the top, and yes, definitely get one. Other opinions are that they are clearly overrated, they like to eat the tapes and as they are so overhyped all the units you find on the second hand market had been already sold 10 times.

Well, as you can see, there is no absolute truth.
I wrote such a post on digitalfaq today.

After playing a few tapes I noticed what you can see in the screenshots below. Why is the image from JVC J672 (composite output) so good compared to Philips VR1100 (JVC S7600)?
J672 in Edit mode, S7600 (svideo) does not have such a setting, so I can only turn off 3DNR.
(B.E.S.T turned on on both machines)

https://imgsli.com/MzA3NzAy

[dellsam34]

You guys are comparing 30+ years old machines, Unless you have a batch of them and they all exhibit the same result you can't judge a model series by a used VCR you own. Also if a VCR eats tapes it is not the fault of the manufacturer, it needs to be fixed.

[lollo]

Yes, today current conditions matter more than the model.

[lordsmurf]

I've copied a couple of tapes with TBC and in the vast majority of cases it causes the image to shake

You VCR is probably bad. Not the model, not the brand ... your exact VCR.

[I]After playing a few tapes I noticed what you can see in the screenshots below. Why is the image from JVC J672 (composite output) so good compared to Philips VR1100 (JVC S7600)?
J672 in Edit mode, S7600 (svideo) does not have such a setting, so I can only turn off 3DNR.
(B.E.S.T turned on on both machines)

That J672 image is not good. It has really aggressive false (over)sharpening. Look at the hard black line on the left side (from our perspective) of the child seat. The world doesn't have black crayon outlines on everything. If you want to sharpen, do it better in Avisynth from the original unmolested video.

You guys are comparing 30+ years old machines, Unless you have a batch of them and they all exhibit the same result you can't judge a model series by a used VCR you own. Also if a VCR eats tapes it is not the fault of the manufacturer, it needs to be fixed.

Correct.

You say "one of the best", on the other hand I read on DigitalFAQ "not recommended".

That statement on DigitalFAQ is false. Search the german doom9 forum for recommended PAL machines:

It's not false. You didn't read it correctly. That post refers to the NTSC 9500. (jwillis84 is/was also just in "learning mode", he wasn't an authority on the topic at all, he was just sharing what he read/heard.) If you put all JVC S-VHS decks into 3 categories/generations, it would be 2nd gen, but 3rd/4th gen is best.

I just have the feeling that there is no absolute truth to this topic.

No, it's more like "people parrot stuff without actually knowing much".

As an example, I actually own a 9500, 9600, 9800, etc. I didn't just read/hear/etc. I know, and I've been working with this gear since is was new 25+ years ago. Hands-on real-world experience. Not just reading BS, and spreading it without vetting or verification.

Who you read (or listen to) matters more than whatever the topic is. Not just video, but anything. This is why our politics is currently so f'd up, people regurgitate lies and nonsense, without any fact checking (and even get angry when facts are checked!)

Read, learn -- but pay attention to who is the teacher!

[Sharc]

Then I read that the "JVC HR-S9500" is at the top, and yes, definitely get one. Other opinions are that they are clearly overrated, they like to eat the tapes and as they are so overhyped all the units you find on the second hand market had been already sold 10 times.

Well, as you can see, there is no absolute truth.
I wrote such a post on digitalfaq today.

After playing a few tapes I noticed what you can see in the screenshots below. Why is the image from JVC J672 (composite output) so good compared to Philips VR1100 (JVC S7600)?
J672 in Edit mode, S7600 (svideo) does not have such a setting, so I can only turn off 3DNR.
(B.E.S.T turned on on both machines)
On a sidenote: for comparing the quality of captures one should present unprocessed .avi snippets rather than screenshots of postprocessed (deinterlaced etc) material

On a sidenote: for comparing the quality of captures it would be better to present unprocessed .avi snippets rather than screenshots of postprocessed (deinterlaced etc) material, even when the postprocessing has been "the same". Let users try what they can get out of it and what conclusions they draw.

[lollo]

It's not false. You didn't read it correctly. That post refers to the NTSC 9500.

I read correctly. And when I read that the S9500 is not recommended I reply this is false, for whatever standard.

If you put all JVC S-VHS decks into 3 categories/generations, it would be 2nd gen, but 3rd/4th gen is best.

No.

S9500 is from 1998 (first generation, not second), S9600 one year later (second generation), s9700 two years later, S9850 in 2002.
The picture quality in playback is the "same" across all versions. What has been added, are the picture modes and extra features, useless because the best captures are done in edit mode, whith all gadgets turned off. (I know you do not prefer edit mode, but that's another story)

What makes S9500 different is that the (chroma) N.R. associated to the TBC (and then not switchable off without disabling the TBC, as for the other models) is less aggressive, and then preferable in a complete restoration workflow.

What can (marginally) makes the later model preferable is that they are younger by a couple of years, and then maybe (marginally) prone to failures.

Who you read (or listen to) matters more than whatever the topic is. Not just video, but anything. This is why our politics is currently so f'd up, people regurgitate lies and nonsense, without any fact checking (and even get angry when facts are checked!)

Read, learn -- but pay attention to who is the teacher!

Exactly, simply pay attention to people providing facts (i.e real capture examples, comparisons, specific tests etc.), rather then blah blah blah.

[lollo]

I guess in the end, I will get a JVC HR-S9500EK plus an I-O Data GV-USB2, and put a stop to this search.

When done, post here some sample of your captures, and we can help with some feedback and support for restoration

[lordsmurf]

S9500 is from 1998 (first generation, not second), S9600 one year later (second generation), s9700 two years later, S9850 in 2002.
The picture quality in playback is the "same" across all versions.

No.

There's dozens of JVC S-VHS decks, and many pre-date 1998. I group them into 4 categories: never suggested, between gen, suggested, EOL suggested. There are outliers, and the non-TBC get separated out.

Picture quality also varies quite a bit between certain deck lines.

Again, this is something you'll get from somebody who has used all these various models, and going back decades. I can only guess you've not used many units, as some of what you state here is just false. There's also stability, TBC strength, audio, etc, to consider. Nothing is "the same" (across all decks), there is no single "best" model (out of these good with-TBC JVC models).

The 2nd gen isn't large, really a transition period, and 9500 exists there.

Not bad at all, just not suggested. Image quality (which is good) isn't the only reason.