Gamers capture card to convert VHS played in VCR that has HDMI out

[VidWidget]

Hi All

I recently purchased an LG RC389H VHS DVD combo unit from a local second hand recycle centre. Its in very good condition.

http://www.lg.com/au/dvd-blu-ray-players/lg-RC389H-dvd-vcr-combo

This player has HDMI out so I can play VHS tapes that are displayed in HDMI format as opposed to rca, scart or s-video. I have compared the quality of the VHS footage played through this unit with another standard vcr that only has RCA and the quality is considerable. I therefore am thinking because the unit has HDMI out for VHS and does some sort of quality upscaling, I could possibly use a gamers HD capture card that records xbox, playstation game play etc, to save my VHS playback on my computer in digital format that I can edit etc later on.

The following is a gamers card I am looking at getting which could be used also for recording game play i.e. dual purpose

https://www.jbhifi.com.au/games-consoles/platforms/game-capture/elgato-game-capture-hd60/618341/

Does anyone see any problems with this, especially technical or resulting file format etc

Cheers

[redwudz]

You could try a search on our site for ' elgato ' and you should come up with some posts/threads about that card.

[hech54]

This player has HDMI out so I can play VHS tapes that are displayed in HDMI format as opposed to rca, scart or s-video.

I doubt that.

[DB83]

I get this strange feeling that I read this topic elsewhere but with the words in a different order

Before you even consider a capture card, have you actually played a VHS with this unit over HDMI ? Normally, such connections are only available for a dvd source. Much like if the unit has a s-video connector and VHS would not be available over that as well. Typically, VHS can only be played over composite/scart. Then gamer capture cards are not really suitable since they capture progressive rather than interlaced which is appropriate for VHS.

[raffriff42]

Downloaded the manual from the link in the OP. The unit supports dubbing from VHS to DVD - so it has a TBC. It supports SD->HD rescaling - so it does deinterlacing. There's no caveat regarding HDMI output being DVD only, but neither does it say "yes VHS to HDMI works"

[hech54]

The unit supports dubbing from VHS to DVD - so it has a TBC.

I doubt that too. I've never read anywhere that ALL dubbing combo machines (must, always) contain some sort of TBC.

[DB83]

^^ Manual Page 11 - "...for use with DVD Players..."

But the manual also does not exclude the use of s-video.

[usually_quiet]

Re-reading the initial post in this thread, I think VidWidget told us he has played a VHS tape with his LG recorder to test HDMI output.

I have compared the quality of the VHS footage played through this unit with another standard vcr that only has RCA and the quality is considerable.

[DB83]

Hmm. I either missed that or read it wrong.

But if that is, and seems to be, the case, I do wonder what electronic trickery is going on under the hood. After all VHS is analogue. HDMI is digital. Neither the twain should be capable of talking to one another without some inter-conversion. So could the VHS be filtered/converted through the DVD stream to digital thus like a dub but without actually writing to a disk ?

So my next question to the OP is what output setting are you selecting ? The manual states you can select 576i (more appropriate for VHS) through to 1080p being a full upscale. But that should result in side-bars. And if they are not there then the image is all wrong.

[raffriff42]

I do wonder what electronic trickery is going on under the hood. After all VHS is analogue. HDMI is digital. Neither the twain should be capable of talking to one another without some inter-conversion.

What's going on is... Time base correction:

Time base correction counteracts errors by buffering the video signal as it comes off the videotape at an unsteady rate, and releasing it at a steady rate.

This must be done for conversion to a digital format. If you digitized it without such correction, the picture would be hideous - much worse than viewing VHS directly on an analog monitor (which smooths out time base errors to some extent). That's why I'm confident that any box that dubs VHS to DVD does time base correction

[DB83]

But we are not talking about a dub here.

The analogue signal is usually separate to the digital one. Even composite and s-video, unless one has a S-VHS deck, are separate. I own a basic VHS/DVD combi and the unit explicably states that VHS is not available over s-video. Only over composite/scart.

Most dvd-recorders AFAIK have some form of TBC which is why they are recommended as pass-thro devices for standard VHS capture.

The question is why this unit apparently allows for output of VHS over HDMI. A TBC on its own does not, IMHO, cover that.

[usually_quiet]

The question is why this unit apparently allows for output of VHS over HDMI. A TBC on its own does not, IMHO, cover that.

In order for DVD recorders to produce DVD-compatible MPEG-2 output from an analog tape source, there has to be analog to digital conversion, and possibly some other image processing applied somewhere along the line, in addition to TBC. Unlike some others, this DVD recorder probably is able to use that uncompressed digital video to output video over HDMI.

[hech54]

I still doubt it. The OP was here 15 minutes ago and said nothing. Either he doesn't know for sure that it does VHS to HDMI.....or he found out that it doesn't in the interim. That's my guess.

[DB83]

^^ It sure would help if he indeed was around to come on to his topic and actually contribute.

But having started two (plus one that was deleted) maybe he will just go for the hat-trick

[VHS-Heaven]

Hello! I got this LG RC389H for free and was amazed that it has HDMI output that supports Full HD upscale of analog signal.

It upscales both internal VHS signal and external analog inputs to Full HD 1080p or 1080i. It also supports 720p and 576p and 576i.

In my opinion it does a good job as an upscaler.

The internal VHS mechanism was malfunctioning due to dirty mode switch contacts. I cleaned the contacts ad it now seems to work except the eject mechanism cannot pull the VHS cassette out all the way so I pull myself the cassete out with my nails or a tool. This happens because while I was testing it it managed to almost self destruct due to the mode switch needing cleanup.

Does this unit feature a TBC? And I would like to know how to find out the fps/hz of the 1080p upscale. The manual tells nothing about that.

I would like also to ask you if the unit has the IC that is considered here as good and is usually used in dvd recorders after 2006

[lollo]

Analog PAL SD signal should be captured as 720x576 50 interlaced fields (25 frames) per second in accordance to ITU-R BT.601 specification.

No upscale, no deinterlacing, no real time video manipulation. Leave these operations to post-processing.

[Alwyn]

Does this unit feature a TBC?

Playing an average tape, if you have wavy side edges of the picture, especially in the top half of the screen, then the unit will not have any stabiliser.

And I would like to know how to find out the fps/hz of the 1080p upscale.

On my HDMI boxes, there is no control over the HDMI output frame rate, only the resolution, so it should be same as your source.

You can use MediaInfo to view the technical details of a file. Use the "Text" view.

[Alwyn]

It is interesting how times change, with HDMI capture of VHS tapes now a highly competitive technique.

[lollo]

It is interesting how times change, with HDMI capture of VHS tapes now a highly competitive technique.

Only if the HDMI signal is a 576i/480i, as the output of specific DVD-Recorders.

As said many times, the advantages is to avoid a D/A and A/D lossy conversion, the cons is the doubt about the quality of the internal digitizing circuits and the conformity of the HDMI signal to ITU-R BT.601. About the last, german users like Skiller and Bogilein (I trust a lot both) are sure about it.

[VHS-Heaven]

I have about 100 VHS tapes and I would like to digitize them soon.

They belong to me so I am not getting any money doing this, so this seriously limits the available budget of the project.

I thought of this LG RC389H as a pretty much easy and decent solution to do this.

The plan is for the signal to go like this:

https://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70187&stc=1&d=1680702424

I already own LG RC389H, working consumer grade VHS machines and also this:

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/1005004973736671.html

[lollo]

If you already have your workflow established, then just use it. Your questions if the player has or not a TBC and if it outputs 25fps or 50fps will then be answered.

Post here the results if you wish to have our comments

[VHS-Heaven]

Thanks to anyone for their valuable input so far. I already did a first attempt with the method above but unfortunately the settings on OBS are endless and I am not familiar with them.

Here is a test file but something wrong with the settings lead to very large size, 255MB and fps are also totally wrong for PAL

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_XT2LDuiEUQa4eZsrkVrR10w3A9rL9DM/view?usp=sharing

The reason I ask about the LG RC389H having some form of TBC or not is that if it doesn't maybe it would make sense to look for a DVD recorder that has line TBC to put between VHS and the LG RC389H

[oln]

I have the related/newer RCT689, and I've briefly used the RC388 (same as RC389 but no HDMI) as I helped repair the power supply for someone. They send everything via the internal digitizer (NXP SAA7138 I believe). It's okay-ish on commercial tapes/tv recordings but it won't do much wiggle correction like the panasonic models. I also have issues with high pitched whine and noise on linear audio playback on the RCT689 and my LG V290 combo without dvd recording that I have yet to find the cause of which is also not ideal for tapes without hi-fi. If just for the A/D conversion itself and potential upscaling to fit with an existing HDMI setup it's probably fine for that purpose. I haven't really tested the upscaling so I don't know how good it does at that.

[lollo]

Something is wrong with the uploaded file, because the frames, but also the fields are blended. The framerate is wrong. Your settings are not appropriate, but I never used OBS for capturing to suggest any change.

It appears (but it may be related to the nature of the animation) that the vertical lines are not so straight, so a lineTBC correction is not present or not very effective.

[Eric-jan]

There are even cheaper ones, with loop through also…. just bought it to play around with and see what's all about.
https://www.amazon.nl/dp/B08GR1LWT2?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_dt_b_asin_title

an advantage of the HDMI to USB dongles is, they need no drivers, they will be seen as webcam by any OS, Android included.
but have ofcourse no TBC functionality, an video editor which can set the capture resolution settings is desireable in such a case,
Colours will be all over the place, one needs to correct that in post, if nothings else works, this would be an option for some people

[lordsmurf]

This thread is a train wreck. Too many non-answers here, or soft answers.

So let me be more direct, hard answers:

- No, no TBC is present in any LG DVD recorder.
- Most HDMI output combo units butcher the signal out, including deinterlace (often field blending), sometime bad AR and incorrect rec.color.
- Most consumer units internally composite the VHS signal, and the HDMI output is composite quality at best.
- OBS is digital screen recording software, no analog capture software. Yes, yes, "it can also do analog", but badly, from an internal display layer, not from the capture card.

"Not getting money" isn't really an excuse to use garbage gear. These are simply tools. I'm sure you don't get money from using vacuum cleaners, lawn mowers, dishwashers, etc. This is no different. If you want to cut the grass with tweezers, or wash all dishes by hand, then go for it. But that's not too different from using the lowest quality hardware to try and capture video. Slow, painful, not good.

[rgr]

I think that the author of the thread would achieve better results by recording a VHS tape to DVD in HQ quality and post-processing it on a PC....

[dellsam34]

No, That's terrible and time consuming idea, MPEG-2 compression while good for quick playback it is not an archival format just like DV.

[rrats]

Why the heck did someone resurrect a 6 year old thread all of a sudden. There are kids born when the thread was started that are now going to schools

[lollo]

No, That's terrible and time consuming idea, MPEG-2 compression while good for quick playback it is not an archival format just like DV.

and just like h264