D-1 player?

[Marpl]

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this .

I had read about some documentarians who recovered the lost media of Reboot (TV show from the 90s), but the videos are all on D1 tapes. Does anyone have a D1 player they're willing to part with? Thanks!

[dellsam34]

If you have the tapes it is better to pay someone who has the machine to get them transferred, The decks are half the size of a refrigerator, finding one in good working condition would cost you more than what you will pay for the transfer.

[Marpl]

Makes sense. They seem pretty set on getting one, so thought I'd put a note out there in the vintage tech HQ. thank you!
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Digital-master-tapes-of-the-3D-series-Reboot-found-but-a....788415.0.html

https://www.reddit.com/r/ReBoot/comments/18mh18i/the_master_tapes_for_all_of_reboot_have_been/

[dellsam34]

Are you the person in possession of the tapes or you're just passing the word around? If so, where are you located?

From the picture in the link above, the tapes look too small to be D1, Though D1 did have smaller sizes for 30min and 6min. Do you mind posting some screenshots of the tapes themselves to see if I can identify them?

[Marpl]

I am not the person directly involved, just trying to do a good deed.

I took these screenshots from their Instagram (here's the link in case you want to look directly)

https://www.instagram.com/rebootrewinddoc/p/C1M8EoJrHCa/?img_index=6

Guy I spoke to on Reddit just said they need a Bosch unit (specifically referenced the BTS DCR-500) because the Sony units would require modification to play them. So maybe they are a weird size?

Also, from what I understand they're in Quebec.

[dellsam34]

It may have something to do with speed, Even Sony had 3 versions of each model, The only thing the Bosch models have and Sony don't is the dynamic tracking of the video heads, Other than that, pretty much Bosch is made for European PAL market and Sony for US and Japan NTSC market, nevertheless, I believe both brands supported PAL and NTSC, Here is the breakdown of all models:

Sony:

DVR-1000 - First model, very bulky, requires processing unit attached to the main tape transport.
DVR-2000. Off-Speed ​​version DVR-2000/OS, Second Off-Speed version DVR-2000SP.
DVR-2100. Off-Speed version DVR-2100/OS, Second Off-Speed ​​version DVR-2100SP.


Bosch BTS:

DCR-100 - First model, very bulky, requires processing unit attached to the main tape transport.
DCR-300
DCR-500

Note that some models differences are just in I/O availability for audio and video, But what they really need to transfer their tapes losslessly is the SDI out port only, SDI streams the full 4:2:2 YCbCr 720x576 video un-altered with up to 4 audio channels all in one BNC cable.

[Marpl]

So they are going to have to find a Bosch unit.. preferably a smaller one. I imagine they're even more rare than a Sony unit?

Edit: now that I think about it, I wonder what the reason is they need a Bosch specifically? I'll ask the dude on Reddit.

[Santiago]

If you have a library of D-1 tapes, Digitizing World(1-800-772-1111) has the high-end decks in house to transfer them to modern digital formats. They can transfer D-1 tapes to DVD, .mp4, Apple ProRes, and other formats. Transfer between PAL and NTSC is also available. All transfers done in house.

[lordsmurf]

If you have a library of D-1 tapes, Digitizing World(1-800-772-1111) has the high-end decks in house to transfer them to modern digital formats. They can transfer D-1 tapes to DVD, .mp4, Apple ProRes, and other formats. Transfer between PAL and NTSC is also available. All transfers done in house.

They won't do it for anybody other than the show owner, not random fans.

I had read about some documentarians who recovered the lost media of Reboot (TV show from the 90s), but the videos are all on D1 tapes. Does anyone have a D1 player they're willing to part with? Thanks!

As a toon fan myself, I can understand this situation.

However, asking for an old random deck is the wrong way to go about this. To be blunt, it's the stupid/clueless way to go about this.

Also, a D1 deck isn't a random VCR that any idiot can operate. But like a VCR, condition of the deck matters, and you do not want something pulled out of a dumpster. Do you really want to come across such a find, only to destroy the tapes? Either from the player eating the tapes, or from a numbnuts operator?

This whole situation is weird to me. Mainframe should already know who to contact, or have a contact to ask for referral.

[Cornucopia]

That series was made in Quebec, so should be NTSC as original masters, but since those say PAL, they are either systems conversion masters meant for overseas distribution, or (rarer) those are re-renders in PAL format.

I agree, these should be treated carefully and professionally, both technically and legally.


Scott

[dellsam34]

Me too, I don't understand why they insist on finding a deck that is harder to find than a unicorn, Plus as mentioned above, even if they find one it will need a serious maintenance and calibration, those are not plug and play machines like VHS, They require broadcast know how. The format stored on tape is not obscure, it is rec.601 SD digital that we all know, About 70GB/hr in a lossless compressed format, They can take the tapes themselves to a service and ask for raw footage with no encoding, Put the files online and let the nerds be creative, They can make good looking 4k 4:3 files out of them.

[Marpl]

This is what I got back:

From what the former MFE tech guys have said, it'd be better for the tapes and playback if they used a BTS DCR-500. The Sony model MIGHT play it, but it may not be 100% correct.

So maybe the tapes are degraded and the variable speed is important?

I imagine they should/will probably find a professional.

[dellsam34]

I believe it is more of the Bosch's dynamic tracking capability than a speed issue, If speed is different you don't get any signal. This is why you let people with the right gear handle this. Usually people who are versed into transferring these formats have good technical knowledge about them vs the consumer market where anyone with a Walmart VCR-DVD combo is open for business.

I left them a message to come here and discuss their needs so we can assist them better, Also we would like to hear from any technician was involved in this format.

[Santiago]

I contacted Digitizing World(1-800-772-1111) and they stated that they can digitize the D1 videos. Just because it states on some off the videos(Master) they can legally convert them. If in doubt, contact Digitizing World.

[dellsam34]

There are a lot of places, they are just not interested in that route. By the way the tapes are digital already, they just need to be transferred to hard drive.

[Marpl]

Ah! I've learned a lot during my conversations here. Thank you so much for englightening me. I appreciate your patience.

[Cornucopia]

I contacted Digitizing World(1-800-772-1111) and they stated that they can digitize the D1 videos. Just because it states on some off the videos(Master) they can legally convert them. If in doubt, contact Digitizing World.

You and they are fooling yourselves if you think the legal wrangling is going to be that easy. Just because those were "found" (perhaps even abandoned) doesn't make them not still the property of the original production company. And you will need to get their (or their successors' or representatives') written signed release, or perhaps some equivalent documents that grant you (or the person you are helping out) ownership of those tapes, before any legit transfer (or conversion, or duplication) service will perform the service. Contravening this process is met with massive fines, if not worse.

I say this having worked in & with such services for years. Technology has changed, but the law has barely budged an inch (and then unfortunately usually for the worse).

Good luck, but I had to make sure you've been properly warned.

[GlitchBob]

That series was made in Quebec, so should be NTSC as original masters, but since those say PAL, they are either systems conversion masters meant for overseas distribution, or (rarer) those are re-renders in PAL format.

I agree, these should be treated carefully and professionally, both technically and legally.


Scott

Made in Vancouver, but it's originally PAL. Why? The co-founders/co-creators of MFE/ReBoot were from the UK and as such knew PAL had benefits over NTSC for animation. A larger resolution (720x576 vs 640x480) and the 25fps progressive framerate was closer to traditional 24fps of 2D animation.
So ReBoot and all other MFE shows were originally rendered in SD PAL, and converted to NTSC for broadcast in Canada and other regions using that format.

You and they are fooling yourselves if you think the legal wrangling is going to be that easy. Just because those were "found" (perhaps even abandoned) doesn't make them not still the property of the original production company.

They found them as in MFS allowed them to go into the archives and the tapes were there. Why MFS didn't put out a post at some point between the "purge" by their former President and now stating the tapes were safe and secure, is anyone's guess.

[Cornucopia]

Ok, didn't know that about the production (makes sense), was going off of Wikipedia info which said Quebec (maybe that's where the masters are stored now?). 25fps vs 24 would not even be an issue now, but that was the era of transition so it was probably prudent, especially with expected worldwide distribution.

Ok, so they are ASKING for just a D1 machine, not asking for assistance transferring (which *would* require shipping), and they are very likely not going to assign dupe rights to others, regardless.
That narrows the options quite a bit. Would have been better to be forthright up front. Edit: I see, you did state that originally, but then got led off on a tangent.

I would say there are 2 ways for them to go:
1. Get a (close to ) working Bosch DCR-500, and pay to have a certified engineer fully restore and tune it up. Very expensive unless they already have an in-house engineer of that caliber (and then it is still expensive).
2. Convince them to change their mind and ship (using bonded shipper that has experience with master tapes), going to a commercial transfer place (NOT consumer-focused!!) in UK/EU that has one of those kept up Bosch units. Would probably make sense for them to contact other remaining production houses to see where they recommend. Would also be expensive but probably not as much as restoring a resold unit in the wild.



Scott

[lordsmurf]

The co-founders/co-creators of MFE/ReBoot were from the UK and as such knew PAL had benefits over NTSC for animation. A larger resolution (720x576 vs 640x480) and the 25fps progressive framerate was closer to traditional 24fps of 2D animation.

FYI, much of that description is complete nonsense. I'm guessing this is fan headcanon BS, not actuality.

You and they are fooling yourselves if you think the legal wrangling is going to be that easy. Just because those were "found" (perhaps even abandoned) doesn't make them not still the property of the original production company.

They found them as in MFS allowed them to go into the archives and the tapes were there. Why MFS didn't put out a post at some point between the "purge" by their former President and now stating the tapes were safe and secure, is anyone's guess.

PR stunt? I know they've tried to reboot Reboot at least once. There was a short Netflix run in late 2010s that was cancelled. Having another go at it now? Retro is still in. "Me too!"

You need to understand that Cornucopia, myself, and others here worked for studios in the past. I'd probably still be in the field, had my health not forced me to quit.

Ok, didn't know that about the production (makes sense), was going off of Wikipedia info which said Quebec (maybe that's where the masters are stored now?).

It was a 90s CG animation company in Canada, known mostly for Transformers Beast Wars, and Reboot was lesser known YTV. I believe it's credited with the CG cartoon rush in the late 90s and early 00s, where we saw others copycat what they did (example: WEP's Voltron 3D, with a random CG animator).

25fps vs 24 would not even be an issue now, but that was the era of transition so it was probably prudent, especially with expected worldwide distribution.

None of that makes any sense to me. PAL 720x576(i) is not 1:1 comparison to 640x480 (720x486i is correct). That's comparing 5:4 AR to 4:3 AR, and makes no sense. Furthermore, you rarely pull 576p25 to 480p24, it's generally p24 expanded to p25 with 4% audio adjustment. This would be especially true if developed for native North American broadcast, which is what it was here.

Animation at the time could generate 720x540 to better accommodate both PAL and NTSC without massive sacrifice (mostly aliasing) to either, though the better option was to render both PAL and NTSC versions.

I knew a lot of new CG animators at the time. It was the new and shiny "it" thing for video back then. I had access to the same sort of SGI workstations used for Reboot, and tried to dabble in Maya myself a few times. Not for me. In fact, my first use of digital video was using SGI MediaBase.

Ok, so they are ASKING for just a D1 machine, not asking for assistance transferring (which *would* require shipping), and they are very likely not going to assign dupe rights to others, regardless.
That narrows the options quite a bit. Would have been better to be forthright up front.
Scott

That really makes no sense either.
"Hey random fans, where can we buy a rare tape machine to convert these for you?"
Really?

[GlitchBob]

Ok, didn't know that about the production (makes sense), was going off of Wikipedia info which said Quebec (maybe that's where the masters are stored now?). 25fps vs 24 would not even be an issue now, but that was the era of transition so it was probably prudent, especially with expected worldwide distribution.

I'm not sure where it says Quebec? I took a look and I'm not seeing it. Either way, no the tapes are currently and likely never have moved from Vancouver.

Ok, so they are ASKING for just a D1 machine, not asking for assistance transferring (which *would* require shipping), and they are very likely not going to assign dupe rights to others, regardless.
That narrows the options quite a bit. Would have been better to be forthright up front. Edit: I see, you did state that originally, but then got led off on a tangent.

Yes, as far as I'm aware everything else is ready with the setup, the only missing component is the VTR. ....What tangent?

I would say there are 2 ways for them to go:
1. Get a (close to ) working Bosch DCR-500, and pay to have a certified engineer fully restore and tune it up. Very expensive unless they already have an in-house engineer of that caliber (and then it is still expensive).
2. Convince them to change their mind and ship (using bonded shipper that has experience with master tapes), going to a commercial transfer place (NOT consumer-focused!!) in UK/EU that has one of those kept up Bosch units. Would probably make sense for them to contact other remaining production houses to see where they recommend. Would also be expensive but probably not as much as restoring a resold unit in the wild.

Given the traction it's had, I have to assume if things were costly, a fundraiser could be created. Many have inquired already about providing funding for the tapes. I agree though, I suspect the UK may the best bet in finding one of these.

The co-founders/co-creators of MFE/ReBoot were from the UK and as such knew PAL had benefits over NTSC for animation. A larger resolution (720x576 vs 640x480) and the 25fps progressive framerate was closer to traditional 24fps of 2D animation.

FYI, much of that description is complete nonsense. I'm guessing this is fan headcanon BS, not actuality.

How is it nonsense? The show was animated in PAL format and looks better due to it.

PR stunt? I know they've tried to reboot Reboot at least once. There was a short Netflix run in late 2010s that was cancelled. Having another go at it now? Retro is still in. "Me too!"

No PR stunt. Mainframe has allowed them to check for the tapes and use them for this documentary. Beyond that it's all fan-driven. I'm very well aware of "The Guardian Code", hated it, as many others did.

That really makes no sense either.
"Hey random fans, where can we buy a rare tape machine to convert these for you?"
Really?

They're hoping to use the footage in the documentary. Moreover if this succeeds, it gives us a real chance to have a proper release, since the DVDs in past (specifically Shout Factory), have not been particularly great for ReBoot, or any MFE production. Mainframe Studios at some point post-2006, discarded all their VTRs, so they don't have the ability to make the transfers.

[dellsam34]

Made in Vancouver, but it's originally PAL. Why? The co-founders/co-creators of MFE/ReBoot were from the UK and as such knew PAL had benefits over NTSC for animation. A larger resolution (720x576 vs 640x480) and the 25fps progressive framerate was closer to traditional 24fps of 2D animation.
So ReBoot and all other MFE shows were originally rendered in SD PAL, and converted to NTSC for broadcast in Canada and other regions using that format.

No, Actually D1 NTSC is 720x486 60i, meaning 60 fields a second, PAL 720x576 50 fields/s. The CGI interface could render 30 or 25 progressive frames a second but it has to be split into odd and even fields since the format does not support progressive, this is 1986, progressive was only possible on film, But it's still interlaced until de-interlaced after transfer by blending the two fields. I'm not really familiar with how those graphics machines work but once the tapes are transferred into files it's easy to examine the fields.

Anyway, the Last two versions of Sony machines DVR-2000SP and DVR-2100SP are capable of playing back the following field rates: True 60 f/s (fields a second), 59.94 f/s for NTSC, and 50 f/s, 47.952 f/s, 49.95 f/s and 48 f/s in PAL.

[dellsam34]

Also if you insist on doing it yourself you need to get this interface, A 3-6 ft SDI cable, a USB3 A-B cable and download BlackMagic MediaExpress application for transfer to hard drive from the D1 deck contained in the Desktop Video 12.7.1 package, It goes like this:
D1 Deck --> SDI Cable --> BM UltraStudio Interface --> USB Cable --> Laptop with HDD (50GB per tape) --> MediaExpress App.

[lordsmurf]

traditional 24fps of 2D animation.

Actually 12fps. I'd be surprised in these early CG were even a full 25/30, some seemed quite stilted, like 12/15 commonly in use at the time. This is a big problem in the 90s, why I didn't start to capture video until 2001. You either got low resolution, low framerate, or both. Just no power, even the SGI. You'd need a render farm that took a warehouse sized room, and hummed so loud you'd need hearing protection. I remember those days, and they sucked.

[dellsam34]

I think you misquoted me, that's GlitchBob's post. Anyway, regardless the CGI interface all has to come down to the format field rate chosen and color standard during recording into D1.

[lordsmurf]

I think you misquoted me, that's GlitchBob's post. Anyway, regardless the CGI interface all has to come down to the format field rate chosen and color standard during recording into D1.

Oops, misquote.

Yep. It just helps to know more about the CG, even if to know why quality is/isn't good. All about expectations. I find "well the UK guys only/best knew PAL" and "PAL is better" (old analog dogma BS) nothing but excuses. So set expectations accordingly.

[dellsam34]

Not sure what was used for those series but this a YT channel dedicated to Quantel hardware used to make graphics and animations for TV stations and commercials.

[jprincz]

I have been in touch with a few people working on this. This has also spread to maybe a dozen news groups. We have 3 working DVR2100's D1 VTR's at The Video Lab of South Florida, and have offered to help.. Sony DVR2100 and BTS DCR 500/300 had minimal to no interchange problems when using them years ago (used both every day for years). There are 3-4 known working BTS DCR500/300 in the world - and these facilities will not be parting with them. Copyright aside, unless someone is willing to part with a rare and working in good shape Sony DVR2000/2100 VTR it is a lot easier to ship tapes (even carry by hand on plane or car) to a facility than to transport a 35+yo 130LB VTR and hope nothing gets out of alignment during the process...

[dellsam34]

That's what I was trying to explain to them on other platforms, Not only the transport of such a heavy machine is a problem, the cost too, no one is willing to give away a priceless machine like this, A lot of collectors are watching for these rarities and are willing to pay a lot of money for them, especially the D1 format, it is a very special format, this is the format that defined analog video capture and rec.601 that we know today, It's like the foundation of the constitution.

Make an appointment with a transfer facility, one of them can take the tapes there with some hard drives, stay one or two nights until the transfer is complete and go back, Once the files are on HDD I'm pretty sure a lot of folks are willing to help with processing the files (de-interlacing, upscaling and encoding to a playable format).

Also I don't get why only the Bosch units can work, Sony made revisions to their last two models as I explained in my above posts, They can playback several frame rate of the PAL format.

[Cornucopia]

Yeah, I remember when they came out in the mid-late 80s, they were ~$180k for the machine alone, not counting peripherals. And then there would be the need to keep them in top shape (specialize engineers).
Even at 1/20th of that price (not likely because they hold their value) you would still be talking $9-10k, and still need it to be tweaked upon destination.


Scott