Capturing VHS - different methods

[DB83]

Yes. The ADVC is a DV box but it can be used as a pass-through device.

Dropped frames and/or sync could be down to the quality of tape, signal etc. Not necc. the software/device. Moany on here will use amarectv and a lossless codec over vdub (not vdub2)


But some time back I captured a full 3hr 20 (I think) commercial tape but using the WinTv program that came with the device. No sync issues whatsoever.

[VHSvideocapture]

Yes. The ADVC is a DV box but it can be used as a pass-through device.

Dropped frames and/or sync could be down to the quality of tape, signal etc. Not necc. the software/device. Moany on here will use amarectv and a lossless codec over vdub (not vdub2)


But some time back I captured a full 3hr 20 (I think) commercial tape but using the WinTv program that came with the device. No sync issues whatsoever.

Sometime I get 2 dropped frames in 1 hour.
Is that acceptable?

I have virtualdub and virtuldub 2 installed and 2 lossless codecs installed Huffyuv and lagrith.
Everything is working as it should be and for de-interlacing I use virtuldubs yadif and hybrid software but I don't know what the best setting is for the best results? Upper field-Lower field-blend fields- interpolate fields. Or remove 1 field.

[lollo]

with the hauppage live USB-2 virtuldub tends to go out of sync after 10 mins this must be because of a lack of full frame TBC?

With modern OSs and cards, use AmarecTV, not VirtualDub.

Sometime I get 2 dropped frames in 1 hour.
Is that acceptable?

Absolutely yes.

I use virtuldubs yadif and hybrid software but I don't know what the best setting is for the best results? Upper field-Lower field-blend fields- interpolate fields. Or remove 1 field.

Double frame rate to do not loose temporal resolution. QTGMC in AviSynth or Hybrid is generally better than Yadif

[VHSvideocapture]

with the hauppage live USB-2 virtuldub tends to go out of sync after 10 mins this must be because of a lack of full frame TBC?

With modern OSs and cards, use AmarecTV, not VirtualDub.

Sometime I get 2 dropped frames in 1 hour.
Is that acceptable?

Absolutely yes.

I use virtuldubs yadif and hybrid software but I don't know what the best setting is for the best results? Upper field-Lower field-blend fields- interpolate fields. Or remove 1 field.

Double frame rate to do not loose temporal resolution. QTGMC in AviSynth or Hybrid is generally better than Yadif

The expert is against Amarec TV says it's not as good as virtualdub.

For capture most people on these forums tend to use virtualdub for capture because it has extra filters
I don't think Amarec TV has filters.

If 2 dropped frames per 1 hour is ok then I don't have any problems?

What is the best de noise filter in hybrid? I did have a de noise filter for virtualdub I downloaded it as a filter pack
I don't like to download too much stuff because of virus issues

[Bwaak]

A TBC inside a VCR is what we call a lineTBC, acting at frame level, to clean the image. An external TBC is what we call a frameTBC, acting to insure "perfect" timing between frames and so on, correcting then different defects. Sometimes you can live with lineTBC only (or with the correction provided by a specific DVD-Recorder), sometimes you need both, depending on your tapes.

Now, just wait for our friend Bwaak to argue about the terms and the functions

Friend? Argue? All I wanted is a definition of "Line TBC" and "Frame TBC" and finally you have produced one of sorts, thank you. So:

• "Line TBC" re-times H-Sync, which results in the absence of line jitter and straight verticals, at least on the left edge of the frame. Do you call this "cleaning the image"? Maybe you want to clarify it instead of parroting your other "friend".
• "Frame TBC" re-times V-Sync, which prevents picture roll or other visible synchronization defects. A standalone box having this functionality and accepting an external sync signal is called Frame Synchronizer.

Indeed, it looks like my SVHS VCR and SVHS camcorders that have built-in TBC are not powerful enough to combat a seriously out of whack V-Sync. Well, except for one Digital8 camcorder, which works like a champ and can be used in a passthrough mode.

[Bwaak]

The expert is against Amarec TV says it's not as good as virtualdub.

Who is the expert? Nevertheless, VirtualDub2 works well enough for me.

For capture most people on these forums tend to use virtualdub for capture because it has extra filters. I don't think Amarec TV has filters.

You don't need filters for capturing.

[lollo]

The expert is against Amarec TV says it's not as good as virtualdub.

My friend lordsmurf is not an expert on the subject, what he wrote in the past proves it, easy to catch this up

"Line TBC" re-times H-Sync, which results in the absence of line jitter and straight verticals, at least on the left edge of the frame. Do you call this "cleaning the image"? Maybe you want to clarify it instead of parroting your other "friend".

You clarified it yourself. "Absence of line jitter and straight verticals" is not cleaning the image? (The reference to left edge is only in your fantasy)

For capture most people on these forums tend to use virtualdub for capture because it has extra filters
I don't think Amarec TV has filters.

VirtualDub is used for capturing not for its filters, but for its stability and options for a/v syncronization. Unfortunately with modern cards and OSs that feature is broken and useless, causing more problems than else.
No filters are useful for capturing, just use 4:2:2 YUV lossless interlaced setting.

If 2 dropped frames per 1 hour is ok then I don't have any problems?

1 hour PAL capture counts 90000 frames. 2 dropped frames have no impact.

What is the best de noise filter in hybrid? I did have a de noise filter for virtualdub I downloaded it as a filter pack
I don't like to download too much stuff because of virus issues

My favourite denoiser is TemporalDegrain2, but it depends on the source and the kind of noise. Many others (spatial, temporal, spatial/temporal) are available, experiment yourself what is better for you.

[Bwaak]

You clarified it yourself. "Absence of line jitter and straight verticals" is not cleaning the image? (The reference to left edge is only in your fantasy)

There reference to the left edge is because for the right edge to be straight and stable the TBC needs velocity compensation circuit, which may or may not be implemented. Lining up H-Sync aligns the left edge only.

[dellsam34]

Was this velocity compensation of the drum speed jitter used in consumer VCRs? if so I would like to know references to it. I believe Analog Devices, the chip manufacturer, used similar approach in some of the pro analog to digital converters such as the S&W TBS800 which supposedly can fix multi gen dubs by tracking the HBI in the frame raster to determine the start and the end of a scan line and stretch it or shrink it to a fixed length. There are links here to some white papers about it but I can't find them.

Edit: I did find this thread though.

[Alwyn]

Indeed, it looks like my SVHS VCR and SVHS camcorders that have built-in TBC are not powerful enough to combat a seriously out of whack V-Sync. Well, except for one Digital8 camcorder, which works like a champ and can be used in a passthrough mode.

What model D8 there, Bwaak?

[lordsmurf]

Yes. The ADVC is a DV box but it can be used as a pass-through device.

No.

The expert is against Amarec TV says it's not as good as virtualdub.

My friend lordsmurf is not an expert on the subject, what he wrote in the past proves it, easy to catch this up

30+ years experience here, we'll just leave it at that.
We just disagree on 1 software, and 1 capture card, and then generally agree on everything else.

1 hour PAL capture counts 90000 frames. 2 dropped frames have no impact.

I wish that were true. 29.97fps = 1 second = 1000 ms. When you drop 2 frames, it's not quite 100ms. 100ms in itself is not overly noticeable offset. But you have to understand sources may have a/v skews as well, so you're generally compounding. If each has 100ms offset, now you're at 200ms offset, and that's entirely noticeable, obvious audio drift. 2 frames worse with PAL, since 20% less frames.

Dropped frames are never acceptable. Dropping both video and audio is more acceptable, and is how transport streams operate (A+V married), how broadcasting is done. It's why broadcast/streaming software is suspect for videotape ingest, as reporting metrics are not the same. When is a frame not a frame? It depends. I wish I had time to locate, and scan, my old issues of Broadcast Engineering from 15-20 years ago, as it explains concepts like this, trying to teach old dogs the new tricks (cranky old analog broadcast folks being forced into the digital world). If these are available anywhere, somebody should take the time to read every issue from 2000-2010.

Was this velocity compensation
Edit: I did find this thread though.

The amusing part of these sorts of conversations, is the you'll get blasted with branded/marketed technobabble ("velocity compensation"), something usurped from an actual term, and then the device touting it is a POS. For example, that SKnet uses flawed version of beta-quality Panasonic chips, as was more likely to barf rainbows on the image that to correct anything. One step forward, two steps back.

It gets even more ridiculous when you realize who writes this text. It's not the person who truly understand it, but a copy writer. It's why you'll get terms to "time base collector" randomly inserted. That alone should be telling, but too many people ignore it as "an error" without thinking deeper about how it got there. The answer is copy writers, word monkeys. They don't know anything about the item, nor need to, nor care to. Just transcribe, fill and pad so it reads well. The marketing dept approves it, not the engineers.

[DB83]

Smurfy.

Let us just say we agree to disagree on the potential of an ADVC 300. Or explain why my captures 'improve' when I use it in the way so described.


But not relevant to this topic which, like many others, threatens to descend in to arguement rather than constructive opinion.

[lollo]

30+ years experience here, we'll just leave it at that.

And thousands and thousands of posts without a single example or fact or evidence about capture or restoration or comparison or whatever else. Not a single one.
I just leave it at that. (OTHH I know you are (sometimes) an "expert").

We just disagree on 1 software, and 1 capture card, and then generally agree on everything else.

We disagree on much more than that, but who cares

Dropped frames are never acceptable.

You probably remember that I do no accept any dropped of inserted frame (being a collector is like having a book without a page), and I always recapture if needed. But for the OP, is just too much.

But you have to understand sources may have a/v skews as well

Just use the option in the capture software to match the starting of the video and the audio. Without PTS (as in the avi architecture), you just rely on the arrival of the audio and video frames, so you have no control over them.

off topic

Dropping both video and audio is more acceptable, and is how transport streams operate (A+V married), how broadcasting is done...

Usual blah-blah from you, with apple and oranges, my friend . Transport streams relies on PTS (Presentation Time Stamp) to synchronize the elementary streams (audio and video), and it has been introduced for a lossy transmission (DVB-S and DVB-T), where packets may be lost. Completely unrelated to the topic.

It's why broadcast/streaming software is suspect for videotape ingest, as reporting metrics are not the same.

AmarecTV does not apply to "broadcast" software, and transport stream mpeg2 concepts simply are out of contest

It depends. I wish I had time to locate, and scan, my old issues of Broadcast Engineering from 15-20 years ago, as it explains concepts like this, trying to teach old dogs the new tricks (cranky old analog broadcast folks being forced into the digital world). If these are available anywhere, somebody should take the time to read every issue from 2000-2010.

As you probably remember, I worked in the dvb-s transmission area, both hardware and software, so you can't put smokes in the eyes with a set of terminology meaning nothing and evanescent notes of your old studies

[VHSvideocapture]

Who is the expert? Nevertheless, VirtualDub2 works well enough for me.

Lordsmurf
He has said virtuldub 2 has unresolved bugs and it drops frames on start capture

You don't need filters for capturing

I know but you may need them for clean up
Virtualdub has lots of plug ins like color mill
denoise but most of the filters only work in 32bit

[DB83]

You do appear to confuse the requirements of a capture program to a post-processing one. True that some perform both functions but not all.

And AmarecTv has never, AFAIAA, made any claims to do post-processing.


So, by all means, use vdub to do the capture AND PP. But it is not the end-all. Typically vdub is used to process an avisynth script rather than rely on its own filters (which for some are adequate all the same). Again, as ever, it comes down to personal choice since there is no hard fast rule about these things. If we all followed 'You MUST do it this way' it would be a sad day indeed.

[VHSvideocapture]

No

What would you recommend for good quality VHS capture I want different opinions

30+ years experience here, we'll just leave it at that.
We just disagree on 1 software, and 1 capture card, and then generally agree on everything else.

That's a long time 😲
Do you capture for other people or work for company that does this?
Lots of these companies exist but have bad reviews like LegacyBox Video imemories, Yes Video, Costco Video do you happen to know what gear they use? I tried asking Legacybox video and the reply I got was this

Sorry we cannot share what equipment we use our equipment is proprietary

[QUOTE=lordsmurf;2716309]1 hour PAL capture counts 90000 frames. 2 dropped frames have no impact.
I wish that were true. 29.97fps = 1 second = 1000 ms. When you drop 2 frames, it's not quite 100ms. 100ms in itself is not overly noticeable offset. But you have to understand sources may have a/v skews as well, so you're generally compounding. If each has 100ms offset, now you're at 200ms offset, and that's entirely noticeable, obvious audio drift. 2 frames worse with PAL, since 20% less frames.


Dropped frames are never acceptable. Dropping both video and audio is more acceptable, and is how transport streams operate (A+V married), how broadcasting is done. It's why broadcast/streaming software is suspect for videotape ingest, as reporting metrics are not the same. When is a frame not a frame? It depends. I wish I had time to locate, and scan, my old issues of Broadcast Engineering from 15-20 years ago, as it explains concepts like this, trying to teach old dogs the new tricks (cranky old analog broadcast folks being forced into the digital world). If these are available anywhere, somebody should take the time to read every issue from 2000-2010. [\QUOTE]

So the bottom line is dropped frames should always be 0? 1 or 2 throughout the whole tape is still unacceptable?
VHS tapes are old they are bound to have errors they are not digital, the VCR is pulling clogs with a belt if that belt is worn out it will effect speed the tape plays it causing a sudden fluctuation in "frame rate" causing a dropped frame audio skew or both?
Depending on how good or bad the tape is, most common issues that everyone faces is jitter the JVC own line tbc nakes the clicks louder the Panasonic ES15 or ES10 is a hit or miss with jitter depending on how bad it is

Was this velocity compensation
Edit: I did find this thread though

The amusing part of these sorts of conversations, is the you'll get blasted with branded/marketed technobabble ("velocity compensation"), something usurped from an actual term, and then the device touting it is a POS. For example, that SKnet uses flawed version of beta-quality Panasonic chips, as was more likely to barf rainbows on the image that to correct anything. One step forward, two steps back.

It gets even more ridiculous when you realize who writes this text. It's not the person who truly understand it, but a copy writer. It's why you'll get terms to "time base collector" randomly inserted. That alone should be telling, but too many people ignore it as "an error" without thinking deeper about how it got there. The answer is copy writers, word monkeys. They don't know anything about the item, nor need to, nor care to. Just transcribe, fill and pad so it reads well. The marketing dept approves it, not the engineers.

Sam I have seen your channel capturing memories the Coca-Cola 4k advert looks close to HD.
Did you get those results with brighteye75?
JVC VCR? What colourspace does the brighteye75 output during capture? I read its RGB only?
Does it support YUY2? A brand new one of those is very expensive I haven't seen many of them on the used market does the bulit in TBC work well? Does it help with jitter? Is it as good as the datavideo ones everyone rants and raves about?
A recent YouTube video says the TBC 1000 from datavideo is trash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L2XCdC5lM8&pp=ygUSZGF0YXZpZGVvIHRiYy0xMDAw

This YouTube channel repairs old equipment and does commercial captures for people he fixes one and said don't ever buy one not that they are easily available to buy can be had old but that is a risk these often have leaking capacitors that need replacing something I and many others can't do.

[VHSvideocapture]

You do appear to confuse the requirements of a capture program to a post-processing one. True that some perform both functions but not all.

And AmarecTv has never, AFAIAA, made any claims to do post-processing.


So, by all means, use vdub to do the capture AND PP. But it is not the end-all. Typically vdub is used to process an avisynth script rather than rely on its own filters (which for some are adequate all the same). Again, as ever, it comes down to personal choice since there is no hard fast rule about these things. If we all followed 'You MUST do it this way' it would be a sad day indeed.

It's more about convenience you capture save file captured file then open it again add filters miss with it and save a filtered version in lossless if the filter results are no good you have the original lossless fioe to fall back on.

Avisynth you have to manually script. and add filters each one as a .dll not with virtualdub you can save the filters in its folder and they will load up automatically when you next you the filter option or you can load manually by clicking load on the filter dialogue box most people will do it this way when it comes to clean up, avisynth not having a GUI interface puts people off otherwise it would be as popular as virtualdub.

[dellsam34]

Sam I have seen your channel capturing memories the Coca-Cola 4k advert looks close to HD.
Did you get those results with brighteye75?
JVC VCR? What colourspace does the brighteye75 output during capture? I read its RGB only?
Does it support YUY2? A brand new one of those is very expensive I haven't seen many of them on the used market does the bulit in TBC work well? Does it help with jitter? Is it as good as the datavideo ones everyone rants and raves about?
A recent YouTube video says the TBC 1000 from datavideo is trash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L2XCdC5lM8&pp=ygUSZGF0YXZpZGVvIHRiYy0xMDAw

This YouTube channel repairs old equipment and does commercial captures for people he fixes one and said don't ever buy one not that they are easily available to buy can be had old but that is a risk these often have leaking capacitors that need replacing something I and many others can't do.

I can tell you what legacybox uses, VCR/DVD combos connected to elgatos, captured with elgato software into mp4, there is not worse that you can do having any thing other than such equipment.

I get a lot of questions about RGB, not sure why, Analog video chips work in YUV domain, It doesn't make any sense to convert YUV to RGB by adding cost to the device. Besides the video ends up as YCbCr, why add an extra step in the middle? BE75 like any other capture device that follows rec.601 standard always processes into YUV and convert to digital YCbCr 4:2:2.

The funny thing about the Datavideo TBC1000 is it uses a dummy PCI card that meant to be inserted into a desktop PCI slot (for mounting purposes only, no active pins) and connections are made at the back from its RCA and S-Video sockets to the VCR and back to another PCI capture card on the same computer (as you can see the sockets are removed), A Molex 12v/5v power connector is still there though. Datavideo decided to add a distribution amp to it, put it in case and sell it as a "professional" TBC for dubbing VHS tapes back in the day as true professionals dubbing equipment were very expensive for a small dubbing operation.

[Bwaak]

A recent YouTube video says the TBC 1000 from datavideo is trash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1L2XCdC5lM8&pp=ygUSZGF0YXZpZGVvIHRiYy0xMDAw

This YouTube channel repairs old equipment and does commercial captures for people he fixes one and said don't ever buy one not that they are easily available to buy can be had old but that is a risk these often have leaking capacitors that need replacing something I and many others can't do.

If you are doing video production work like I do, mmm-okay... I am so tired of not being able to get my message across to people because they don't really understand, they are not tech gurus like I am.

This guy sure does not suffer from inferiority complex. At least he uploads nuggets of wisdom unlike some other self-proclaimed gurus, who specialize in calling everything they don't understand "technobabble".

This is the biggest piece of crap, and the reason for that is it uses this Japanese sh!t.

Just because the components went bad after twenty years does not mean the device did not work well when it was new. He himself confirms that it performs fine after he replaced several capacitors. Sadly, many products have issues with leaking capacitors and burned ICs, so singling out this TBC is just inappropriate IMO.

If you are using VHS or Hi8, lot of these little modern cassette formats, 9 times out of 10 they have built-in TBC in them.

Is he recording this video in the late 1980s? That was the time when built-in TBCs temporarily became the thing, as analog video was switching to digital, and VHS/Hi8 manufacturers desperately wanted to put bit "DIGITAL" label on their products. But this time has quickly passed, and by the early 1990s most VCRs and camcorders did not have built-in TBC except for a handful of prosumer products. Built-in TBC returned in the early 2000s in SVHS and Hi8 and Digital8 products, not in all of them, but in many. I would not call them modern formats anyway, not in 2023.

The only time you need TBC is serious hard-core equipment like 1-inch, 2-inch quad machines.

Actually, quads have always had built-in sorta-TBC correctors, and the need for a standalone TBC arose when independent videopgraphers started shooting video on streets and bringing their content to PBS or whatever other broadcaster only to be told off because their video did not pass the FCC requirements. Same with the early Umatic. So, the invention of TBC 50 years ago democratized location shooting on video on smaller formats, it was not so much needed for the quads, which were much more stable. I suppose now half a century later, all analog equipment is out of spec one way or another, and TBC is the simplest way of stabilizing the image if it is not completely out of whack.

[dellsam34]

I give the guy in the youtube video a credit in that he transfers a lot of old stuff, u-matic, reel to reel, obsolete and obscure formats, and I'm pretty sure he knows that stuff, and yes those formats do need a TBC if you are using them with modern equipment, not so much for the Betacam generation. He uses decent equipment for consumer formats and his captures are of a high quality level.

He was wrong about the Japanese components, A lot of Americans are ignorant about Asia, they think all Asians are the same. Japanese made stuff are the highest quality, sometimes higher than American made crap like RCA anyone heard of JVC, Sony, Panasonic and the likes? The second tier is Korea, Malesia and Singapore, usually rebranded or brand name made for overseas markets, the last class is China, knock offs, fake and very crappy unless it's genuine Brand name made in OEM factories.

[Bwaak]

I give the guy in the youtube video a credit in that he transfers a lot of old stuff, u-matic, reel to reel, obsolete and obscure formats, and I'm pretty sure he knows that stuff, and yes those formats do need a TBC if you are using them with modern equipment, not so much for the Betacam generation. He uses decent equipment for consumer formats and his captures are of a high quality level.

I agree, he is a doer, I respect him for that. Too bad that he figured out how to upload 60p videos to YouTube only three months ago. Oh, and I hate the watermark

[VHSvideocapture]

[QUOTE=dellsam34;2716350]

I can tell you what leacybox uses, VCR/DVD combos connected to elgatos, captured with elgato software into mp4, there is not worse that you can do having any thing other than such equipment.[\QUOTE]

The guy you are thinking of is Phil Thomas - Got memories he brags about how he is better than all the other companies
I got a bogus quote from him $350
His reply to my bogus email I sent him asking for a quote I wss playing hik to see how much he charges

Got the pix, tapes look ok physically but that usually tells me nothing until I run them. My adage is things go to plan 60% of the time lol!

I have a $350 min on any projects I take on, most of my orders are large family archiving projects so the smaller projects take up way too much time and admin for it even to be worthwhile. I’m only one guy + Samantha when needed so I keep things manageable and enjoyable for me so I don’t get overwhelmed and go mental, esp with more and more redo workfrom all these crappy companies.

As for LB, even I find their prices confusing. I sometimes think, given their shady tactics it’s by design. Whatever their pricing, they are trash.

If you want to get those tapes done, it would be $350, that does include round trip shipping and a usb and a shareable download. If you’ve got more tapes to get more bang for your buck let me know.

Best regards,
Phil Thomas

This is his reply to my email



[QUOTE=dellsam34;2716350]
I get a lot of questions about RGB, not sure why, Analog video chips work in YUV domain, It doesn't make any sense to convert YUV to RGB by adding cost to the device. Besides the video ends up as YCbCr, why add an extra step in the middle? BE75 like any other capture device that follows rec.601 standard always processes into YUV and convert to digital YCbCr 4:2:2.[\QUOTE]



BE75 can capture in YUV 4:22 I think the TBC is 12bit most of the processing programmes use 10bit meaning you would have to re encode it 10bit if you want to work on the file, colour correct, de noise de-interlace, resize.
What is the best resize method for YouTube?

[QUOTE=dellsam34;2716350]
The funny thing about Datavideo TBC1000 is it uses a dummy PCI card that meant to be inserted into a desktop PCI slot (for mounting purposes only, no active pins) and connections are made at the back from its RCA and S-Video sockets to the VCR and back to another PCI capture card on the same computer (as you can see the sockets are removed), A Molex 12v/5v power connector is still there though. Datavideo decided to add a distribution amp to it, put it in case and sell it as a "professional" TBC for dubbing VHS tapes back in the day as true professionals dubbing equipment were very expensive for a small dubbing operation. [\QUOTE]

My limited understanding of the TBC 1000 is its a datavideo vp299

http://https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/216915-REG/Datavideo_VP_299_VP_299_A_V_Distribution_Amplifier .html
with a datavideo TBC100 pcie added to it and made into a TBC
http://https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/242149-REG/Datavideo_TBC_100_TBC_100_Sin...annel_TBC.html

[VHSvideocapture]

Just because the components went bad after twenty years does not mean the device did not work well when it was new. He himself confirms that it performs fine after he replaced several capacitors. Sadly, many products have issues with leaking capacitors and burned ICs, so singling out this TBC is just inappropriate IMO

Would you spend a thousand $$$ on a TBC and say it only works for 3 months and goes bad?
Would try and get the parts? Would you tty and fic it yourself? Would you not buy one at all?

Is he recording this video in the late 1980s? That was the time when built-in TBCs temporarily became the thing, as analog video was switching to digital, and VHS/Hi8 manufacturers desperately wanted to put bit "DIGITAL" label on their products. But this time has quickly passed, and by the early 1990s most VCRs and camcorders did not have built-in TBC except for a handful of prosumer products. Built-in TBC returned in the early 2000s in SVHS and Hi8 and Digital8 products, not in all of them, but in many. I would not call them modern formats anyway, not in 2023.

The way video works does not charge doesn't matter what year the real argument is a TBC an absolutely necessity when capturing VHS? Different people come up with different answers some say yes some say no some don't care about it.

The person who keeps bringing up TBC has a signature on this forum with links to a forum market place that sells TBCS people may think he has a financial interest in selling a TBC because of the links under his signature on this forum.

I don't fully understand what a TBC does I've heard 2 terms line TBC full frame TBC. My limited understanding is the line TBC in the VCR it cleans up the picture and the full frame TBC cleans up the signal ( the signal goes from the VCR to the TBC output) and it cleans the signal up and sends it to the PC?; I'm I following this correctly? Because of this the quality will be effected depending on how the TBC handled the video it could make it darker or sometimes add a blue mist to the video?

[Bwaak]

is a TBC an absolutely necessity when capturing VHS?

TBC is neither a technical nor a legal requirement for digitizing analog video. For TV broadcast, FCC requires a broadcaster to air a stable signal, how this is achieved is the broadcaster's problem.

My limited understanding is the line TBC in the VCR it cleans up the picture and the full frame TBC cleans up the signal

Are you sure it is YOUR limited understanding?

[Alwyn]

The way video works does not charge doesn't matter what year the real argument is a TBC an absolutely necessity when capturing VHS?

Some sort of "stabiliser" is, in a lot of cases. Whether that stabiliser be a inbuilt VCR TBC or some external gadget, a significant number of tapes (or poor VCRs) will exhibit wavy edges/vertical lines/jumpy picture/wonky colours that are corrected when stabilised. Check this out (my site):

http://aaproductions.net/stabilisers.htm

On the subject, it looks to me like the much maligned GotMemories uses, in the main, Panasonic combos. Critically, each of those combos has the Panasonic Diga VHS Refresh feature, which is the same feature that the ES-15 uses for stabilisation. So his videos are well-stabilised and probably come out quite nicely. I have two of those type of combos and they work very well in this regard. One does not need an ES-15.

[dellsam34]

I don't fully understand what a TBC does I've heard 2 terms line TBC full frame TBC. My limited understanding is the line TBC in the VCR it cleans up the picture and the full frame TBC cleans up the signal ( the signal goes from the VCR to the TBC output) and it cleans the signal up and sends it to the PC?; I'm I following this correctly? Because of this the quality will be effected depending on how the TBC handled the video it could make it darker or sometimes add a blue mist to the video?

"Cleans up the picture and cleans up the signal" are layman words, Technically you could say they are wrong, Any voltage running in a wire is an electric signal, whether video, audio, data you name it. In a nutshell, line TBC fixes line timing or the HBI signal, frame TBC fixes frame timing or VBI signal. It is not always the case though, Some pro devices, DVD recorders and consumer VCRs can do both at the same time, those are the ones the guy in the video was referring to, Don't ask me what models or devices, but I know they do exist, even Sony VCRs have some sort of digital processing that actually produced rock solid picture in both the line domain and frame domain, but they never mentioned the term TBC in their marketing materials.

To make a database of what devices have this capability, it needs people to test such devices and report back with samples, From time to time I see members post feedback about capture cards and rack mount TBCs that are forbidden in these forums and the results are actually surprising. I remember when I was looking for a consumer alternative capture hardware I couldn't find any useful info so decided to take a dive and experiment for myself, and I'm glad I did otherwise I will be still dealing with audio drift and frame drop issues.

So that's what needs to happen, People need to experiment for themselves and report for analysis and data collections of bad and good devices, Otherwise nothing will change, newbies open threads to ask questions and regular members start to argue about their feelings and nothing gets done.

[Bwaak]

This is a professional recording on an SVHS-C cassette from 1995. The files are named according to capture method. Files that does not name the A/D converter were captured with a ViXS PureTV-U 480B0 card. Have fun. Or not.

[dellsam34]

I see from your samples that the tape is bad, Because two VCRs could not play it properly with or without TBC, and I see your point about DV capabilities, However I noticed the video got very soft and lost details, Not sure if it's the DV codec itself or the camcorder passthrough processing, What I would like to see is try other options like a suggested DVD recorder, another DV device in passthrough only without going through firewire, If you find a device that gets rid of flagging and wiggle without compromising video quality that's the device you hang on to.

[Bwaak]

I see from your samples that the tape is bad, Because two VCRs could not play it properly with or without TBC, and I see your point about DV capabilities, However I noticed the video got very soft and lost details, Not sure if it's the DV codec itself or the camcorder passthrough processing

Yes, some clips are softer than other, but the DV clip is the sharpest, at least when I play the interlaced video. Even deinterlaced it still looks pretty good. I have no issues with sharpness, but it seems to raise the black level. Not perfect, but I recovered several bad tapes with it, so far this is the best I have.

If you find a device that gets rid of flagging and wiggle without compromising video quality that's the device you hang on to.

Well, duh!

What model D8 there, Bwaak?

Sony DCR-TRV525, used in the sample above.

[dellsam34]

On my end using both MPC-HC and VLC, the DV sample is duller and brighter, All other samples are slightly darker and sharper.