I am ready to rip my hair out need help capturing video from Camcoder

[MrKool]

I have some old Video Tapes from a camcoder. Camcoder only has composite video out. I have tried the Dazzle (this was a waste) and than after reading reviews bought the VIDBOX from amazon as i am using windows 11 and apprently this is the only one that works. So i installed and i can get the video and audio but the quality is crap. I can go to VLC and it is a little better if i do the deinterlace but if i dont deinterlace the video is almost unwatchable. The colors are also washed out so i have been reading about all the things you guys do and it looks like it is an art form more than a science so i need an artist who can walk me though how to go from my Analog to digital with decent quality.
I have installed OBS, what ever software VIDBOX came with Pinnacle studio etc. and none of them are capturning anyting decent.

I keep hearing about TBC if this a physical device i buy and run the video out from camera through this? I saw some videos of a guy using Firewire to DV and it had TBC but i cant find the device he was using.

Please help a noob.

just FYI I am not a noob to computers and have been in IT for over 25 years so if you point me in the right direction i am sure i can figure this out. I almost wanted to use those online services like walmart and imemories but you guys highgly suggested to not do that so i am trying to do this in house.

[Barrythecrab]

Starting with a non-svideo camcorder already puts you behind the 8-ball.
NEVER use OBS for capture, this has been a point of argument for some time. Use VirtualDub 1.911 or AmarecTV.
To continue, there are 2 types of TBC:
A) Line TBC which removes the wigglies, and is found in better Camcorders and S-VHS players.
B) Frame TBC which should be invisible when working as it rebuilds the signal. Very rare and expensive now. Read up, I am not the expert.
The Panasonic ES-10 and 15 both have capacity to alter/repair the signal from the source, with varying degrees of visual byproducts. Read up, I'm not the expert.
Capture to lossless AVI is a game-changer, heads and shoulders above the run-of-the-mill MPEG2 or MP4 capture.
Surely others will chime in.

[Bwaak]

To continue, there are 2 types of TBC:
A) Line TBC which removes the wigglies, and is found in better Camcorders and S-VHS players.
B) Frame TBC which should be invisible when working as it rebuilds the signal. Very rare and expensive now. Read up, I am not the expert.

Care to explain how "Frame TBC" "rebuilds the signal"? Does it mean that "Line TBC" does not rebuild the signal, or that "Line TBC" is not invisible?

[Barrythecrab]

There are a boatload of links here that can explain it better than I ever could but maybe someone here with the full knowledge can sum it up for you.

[Alwyn]

MrKool, a few questions and comments if I may!

Are the videotapes VHS/VHS-C or 8mm/Video8?

i dont deinterlace the video is almost unwatchable.

In what way? Lots of jagged edges? Depending on the capture technique, your captured video will be interlaced but can easily be deinterlaced during post-capture processing.

Re quality, you'll get the best quality capturing into a lossless AVI format/codec such as Lagarith or HUFFYUV. After that, you can process it as needed into MP4 for general viewing.

You are limiting yourself with a Composite-Out only camcorder. A more upmarket camcorder will have S-Video out (which is visibly better than Composite), and if you are in the Video8 world, you have the option of certain Digital 8 camcorders being able to output DV via Firewire. And as Barry said, you may be able to find a camcorder with an inbuilt line TBC.

So, at this point, you need to ascertain whether the "cr@p" quality is due to the capture process, the equipment, or the tapes. First, I'd have a go at a lossless capture. Install the Lagarith codec (just run the EXE file), then use AmarecTV to do a capture with your Dazzle (I'm not familiar with the VidBox so don't know whether you can capture from it directly). I have written a guide for using AmarecTV here. It will produce an AVI file which you can analyse in VLC.

Care to explain how "Frame TBC" "rebuilds the signal"? Does it mean that "Line TBC" does not rebuild the signal, or that "Line TBC" is not invisible?

Here we go... again.

[MrKool]

thanks for the reply guys here are some updates

1. The camera and the tapes i have are recorded in PAL format and i am in the US so not alot of options to buy another camera that can play these tapes.
2. These are 8MM Video Cassetts
3. The tapes should be in decent condition as they have not been over written most of them were recorded one time and than put away.

here is what the video looked like after i used your guide to capture using AmarecTV and Lagarith in lossless

[Attachment 72458 - Click to enlarge]

[Alwyn]

No 1: Hmm, that is a bummer.

No 3: Video8, in my experience, is a pretty good format quality-wise so it could either be your camcorder or capture method (or it could be that a bad camcorder did the original recording).

As a first step, I'd still proceed as I suggested in post #5, doing a lossless capture with AmarecTV and see what the quality is like. If it's not good, then you'll need to get another digitiser or camcorder.

How do the tapes look when playing in the camcorder's viewfinder?

How do they look on the TV (hook up the Composite Out to your TV)? That will show whether the tapes themselves and the camcorder are OK.

[Bwaak]

There are a boatload of links here that can explain it better than I ever could but maybe someone here with the full knowledge can sum it up for you.

I am not interested in the boatload of links, I wonder what YOU meant when you offered your piece of advice. You've used two terms of which you don't seem to know the exact meaning, and you've made a couple of statements that you cannot expound. Ok, then. No more questions.

[Alwyn]

here is what the video looked like after i used your guide to capture using AmarecTV and Lagarith in lossless

Good job. Comments:

1. The interlacing is obviously obvious . If you open that file in VLC, then turn Deinterlacing ON (Video>Deinterlace>On) you'll see that the jaggies disappear.

2. I see wonky, blotchy colours here and there, and particularly in a big band across the upper 20% of the video. I suspect that that is caused by the camcorder, either at filming or when capturing. It could be that the Dazzle is the culprit; try that TV test and see if the colours look good and that band isn't there.

Colour blotching like that can be helped by a line TBC, as mentioned by Barry. But we're not that far along, yet.

Ideally, you'd play a different tape (from a different time) to see if that banding is caused by the camcorder, but that's going to be hard being PAL.

Similarly, getting another camcorder.

Questions:

Does that look any better than your previous captures (ignoring the interlacing)?

How does the tape look on the TV? Is that band across the top visible?

[Sharc]

here is what the video looked like after i used your guide to capture using AmarecTV and Lagarith in lossless

[Attachment 72458 - Click to enlarge]

Actually your interlaced capture is not awfully bad or totally off the kilter, apart from the strange color shift on top of the wooden doors. It suffers of composite video effects and noise though. As you don't have a PAL player or videocam with S-video output you would need a good Y/C filter, means for example using one of the recommended DVD recorders in passthrough. However I would suggest that you upload a short sequence of your captured video here, so someone may check how to improve it in post processing and give more focused advice.

[MrKool]

Thanks for all the help guys I really appreciate it.

So as I said this is a PAL camera and I am in the US so all my TVs are NTSC and the video comes out black and white and distorted but on the small 2.5” screen on the camcorder it looks great.

The top banding is there on at least two tapes so it might be the camcorder. I have tried different cables and different software I even tried cleaning the head with a cotton swab and alcohol and paper but again as this is a pal camera it is gonna be really hard to find a replacement I looked on flebay and they had one camera for sale and that was in UK not sure how much better that camera is going to be as these have been out of production for a while now.

I know I want to do this personally but if I have to ask some one else to do it is there a better company that does a good job? Some one with not too high volume so they don’t have worn out heads digitizing crap?

[MrKool]

Here is an clip of the video it is not looking good

[DB83]

If I was to be truly critical, a clip with no movement and just a whitish garage? door will not provide sufficient material for analysis. Some colour, just like your still, and movement will be better.

Even so, as it stands, there is not so much amiss with it. It is interlaced and players do not always pick this up - my own VLC with an automatic setting does not. But change that automatic to force de-interlace with, for example, yadif and your reaction may well be different.

[MrKool]

here is another video with more color inside

[Sharc]

Here is an clip of the video it is not looking good

Do these deinterlaced version look more acceptable to you on your PC?
You still can't play it on your NTSC TV. In a next step one would have to change the format and framerate from PAL to NTSC. Worth the pain? If you have no other gear and want to preserve the memories, perhaps.....

Edit:
I added a telecined NTSC variant (file telecined2.mp4) which you may want to try on your NTSC TV (I am PAL so I couldn't really test it).

[Brad]

I would suggest adding a NEC-based DVD recorder known to offer "decent" passthrough TBC (certain Pioneer and Sony models, mentioned in other threads).

Alternatively, you could look into a Digital8 camcorder with included line TBC and AV->DV "signal conversion" feature. These are nice because they give you the flexibility of either S-Video output for lossless capture, or "simple" but lower-quality Firewire capture. Unfortunately, it seems that all of the PAL models introduce the "edge colour issue" which may or may not bother you.

[MrKool]

Here is an clip of the video it is not looking good

Do these deinterlaced version look more acceptable to you on your PC?
You still can't play it on your NTSC TV. In a next step one would have to change the format and framerate from PAL to NTSC. Worth the pain? If you have no other gear and want to preserve the memories, perhaps.....

Edit:
I added a telecined NTSC variant (file telecined2.mp4) which you may want to try on your NTSC TV (I am PAL so I couldn't really test it).

wow what did you use to deinterlace these? the video looks almost digital the NTSC one played kinda jittery on my PC will test it on my TV but now a days everything is digital i will most likely keep them on my dropbox and give access to family members to play back through their tablets or through Plex so it shouldn't matter if they are PAL or NTSC right?

[Alwyn]

Here's what can be done with a few clicks in Virtual Dub 2. Only filters used were the Deinterlacer (Yadif, double frame rate) and Temporal Smoother. I did a run with Neat Video which came out much better but that is classed as cheating here so I'm keeping it to myself!

[Alwyn]

@MrKool, is that band across the top portion there for all your tapes? I'm thinking that, if it is, it's more likely to be that camcorder as opposed to the recordings themselves. Unfortunately, you're probably not going to find out for sure until you get another camcorder.

You still can't play it on your NTSC TV. In a next step one would have to change the format and framerate from PAL to NTSC.

This shouldn't matter, should it? We get all manner of framerates and formats these days and they all play fine on the PC and TVs. I would have thought PAL/NTSC is only an issue for VCRs.

[MrKool]

Here's what can be done with a few clicks in Virtual Dub 2. Only filters used were the Deinterlacer (Yadif, double frame rate) and Temporal Smoother. I did a run with Neat Video which came out much better but that is classed as cheating here so I'm keeping it to myself!

can you message me the file? Also did you have to buy any of the plugins?

[Sharc]

Here is an clip of the video it is not looking good

Do these deinterlaced version look more acceptable to you on your PC?
You still can't play it on your NTSC TV. In a next step one would have to change the format and framerate from PAL to NTSC. Worth the pain? If you have no other gear and want to preserve the memories, perhaps.....

Edit:
I added a telecined NTSC variant (file telecined2.mp4) which you may want to try on your NTSC TV (I am PAL so I couldn't really test it).

wow what did you use to deinterlace these? the video looks almost digital the NTSC one played kinda jittery on my PC will test it on my TV but now a days everything is digital i will most likely keep them on my dropbox and give access to family members to play back through their tablets or through Plex so it shouldn't matter if they are PAL or NTSC right?

PAL vs NTSC shouldn't be a problem on tablets and modern TVs, unless one uses an old NTSC CRT TV. You may however still experience 50Hz/60Hz judder for the deinterlaced variant or the 3:2 pulldown judder for the telecined TV variant. Depends on the player. Just try.
Anyway, these files are just 'fixes' of your current captures as a last resort if you have no access to better equipment (PAL DVD recorder in passthrough or Digital8 handicam with Video8 playback option via S-video or converted to DV).

[lollo]

As Sharc said, the quality flow is to start from best possible capture, meaning high end player and one of the recommended capture cards.

Your capture shows gaps in the histograms, if not wanted (i.e. tuning the procamp), check the capture settings.



In post processing you can improve a little bit the quality, as showed by Sharc and Alwin. Here my quick AviSynth attempt with QTGMC/TemporalDegrain2, and a comparison with the VirtualDub Yadiff/TemporalSmoother; not for competition, but just to show alternatives.

https://imgsli.com/MTkyNjI1

https://imgsli.com/MTkyNjI2

[Alwyn]

Show us ya code, show us ya code!

[lollo]

Yes, sorry, it is very simple, but it was lost in my final editing

Here a summary of the main filtering

QTGMC(preset="slow", matchpreset="slow", matchpreset2="slow", sourcematch=3, tr1=2, tr2=1, NoiseTR=2, sharpness=0.1)

TemporalDegrain2(degrainTR=3)

LSFmod(defaults="slow")

[Alwyn]

Thanks @Lollo. I shall experiment.

[Alwyn]

can you message me the file? Also did you have to buy any of the plugins?

If you are familar with Virtual Dub, these are the filters I used in Virtual Dub 2 64-bit:

Deinterlace:

[Attachment 72516 - Click to enlarge]

Temporal Denoise:

[Attachment 72517 - Click to enlarge]

If you're not familiar with VDub, I'm writing a beginner's tute and should have it ready tomorrow.

[MrKool]

[QUOTE=Alwyn;2697908]

can you message me the file? Also did you have to buy any of the plugins?

If you are familar with Virtual Dub, these are the filters I used in Virtual Dub 2 64-bit:

Deinterlace:

[Attachment 72516 - Click to enlarge]

Temporal Denoise:

[Attachment 72517 - Click to enlarge]

If you're not familiar with VDub, I'm writing a beginner's tute and should have it ready tomorrow.[/QUOTE

Anxiously waiting for your guide.

[Alwyn]

Anxiously waiting for your guide.

No need to be anxious. It won't hurt!

[poisondeathray]

RE: "(20230717-1246).avi"

Y channel has 50 fields/s but the U,V channels consist of duplicate fields - they are effectively 25 fields/s for color.

On the double rate yadif deinterlaced version, you can see the color move left/right (e.g. pan of the picture, watch the hands of the guy sitting down) - the color is not quite aligned because of this. It is a type of color flicker. You can examine the U,V channels with ExtractU or ExtractV, or UtoY, or VtoY on the original AVI and/or the yadif version

Not sure if it's "baked" into the original or due to some issue with the capture process, but it would be better to address the underlying cause .

But if there are no other options, you can try discarding the one set of U,V fields , then re-interpolating new U,V videos

[Sharc]

RE: "(20230717-1246).avi"
Y channel has 50 fields/s but the U,V channels consist of duplicate fields - they are effectively 25 fields/s for color.

Yes indeed.
Chroma motion seems however to be synchronous with the luma for the bob-deinterlaced 4:2:0 encodes of post#15, no?