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Greetings,
I’ve just purchased the happauge USB-live 2 device to convert my analog Hi8 tapes to digital. I am using a top of the line Sony E-VS5000 dedicated hi8 tape player and I’ve connected it to the usblive2 using s-video. I have installed the latest WinTv 7 software along with the latest drivers. The results of my captures are not good. There is too much horizontal flicker/tearing on the video indicating horizontal sync problem. It seems to happen almost ever 10-20 seconds of video. I have ruled out the VCR as it does not happen with it is connected to a TV and I’ve ruled out the tapes, they all behaving similarly.
I also tried another capture program and the problem is that a ‘VCR Input’ option appears to not be allowed by happauge drivers. I used to have an piece of crap old capture card (pinnacle 500 usb) that had this option which actually fixed this flicker and didn't have an issue. Why is it inaccessible with happauge, and what can I do to fix this?
Take a look as an example:
This is a still shot of approximately what is happening to the image:
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What version of Windows is installed on your capture PC? Sometimes options in capture drivers that are deactivated in later versions of Windows become available using Windows XP, but not always. The feature you want to use may never have been implemented or is unsupported by the hardware.
Some people use a DVD recorder as a poor man's line TBC (time base corrector), to correct tearing. The DVD recorder isn't actually used for recording anything itself. Its line in and line out are used as a pass through so filters in its internal circuitry can correct the signal. -
What size are you supposed to capture 8mm stuff? - 720x480(576) or 640x480?
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I use a dedicated WinXP capture box, and I can confirm that this feature - "VCR Input" - is grayed out in VirtualDub with the USB-Live2. Should install and try it on my Win7 machine, but too lazy right now, and wouldn't think otherwise in any change. But will do it if request is strong enough.
Besides, this "VCR Input" option has had no difference or benefit in my tests. (Unless I'm missing something significant, someone please enlighten me. 
)
Your problem is not this option, or lack thereof, and not your capture device, or even your VCR (although some VCRs can be worse than others with this, namely the high-end JVCs, and can vary per tape...).
You need proper line correction. This problem can happen quite frequently when tape flaws collide with digital transfer. As you can see, VHS (or similar) was never intended to be a digital format. (I hate VHS. I always did.)
As Usually Quiet touched upon, get yourself one of those DvD recorders that do this line correction with an internal line-based TBC using it in pass-through. (Who cares really if they do anything else, or whether they can still record or not).
Two good models, available in good supply and price on eBaY, are the Panasonic DMR-ES10 or Panasonic DMR-ES15. I had this problem too previously, and such a unit was the cure.
I beg to differ my friend. Although you're right about the tearing, and many such models being inexpensive is true, and always a nice bonus regardless of budget, money was NOT an issue with me. I am not "poor".Originally Posted by usually_quiet
I bought it simply because it was a solution. I already spent $500+ on a DataVideo TBC-1000 (which softened the video) and another $300 on an AV Toolbox AVT-8710 (which ghosts, and has other flakiness about it), and find this model, the ES15, to be an amazing solution on my transfers (of which commercial tapes with MV are not in my list) and has severely benefited my workflow.
Other than that odd tape with false positives, or even MV where rarely applicable to me, I now use the ES15 (the "cheap one") all the time even though I do have more expensive wares still around.I hate VHS. I always did. -
A "poor man's X" is just an expression for an inexpensive substitute for something else, which in this case would be the built-in line TBC on a pro or prosumer VCR, which is a rather expensive item, if in good condition. The DVD recorder's faux line TBC may be better able to correct tearing than the real thing, depending on the model. If you are bent out of shape about my using the expression "poor man's line TBC", that is your problem.Originally Posted by PuzZLeR
I beg to differ my friend. Although you're right about the tearing, and many such models being inexpensive is true, and always a nice bonus regardless of budget, money was NOT an issue with me. I am not "poor".Originally Posted by usually_quiet
You are comparing apples and oranges. The DataVideo TBC-1000 and AV Toolbox AVT-8710 are full-frame TBCs, not line TBCs and have a different function than line TBCs, which you should know. LOLOriginally Posted by PuzZLeR
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No offense taken my friend.Originally Posted by usually_quiet Just didn't want others watching this thread to think the ES10/ES15 is a budget-only solution (although, no matter how "rich" one can feel, a cheaper price is always nice). It should be clear that an inexpensive model like the ES10/ES15 has its definite advantages over other TBCs, or TBC-like solutions - advantages that are independent of price.
Then again, one can make the argument that the AVT-8710, and the DataVideo, are indeed "poor man" TBC solutions given that broadcast level TBCs can cost several thousands (as I'm sure you're aware of).
Yes indeed. I'm aware of these fundamental differences.Originally Posted by usually_quietYou are comparing apples and oranges. The DataVideo TBC-1000 and AV Toolbox AVT-8710 are full-frame TBCs, not line TBCs and have a different function than line TBCs, which you should know. LOLOriginally Posted by PuzZLeR
And I was stating in my last post at the end, that at this point in my transfers, I have no need of "apples". I'm in "Orange-ville" now. In other words, if you don't need MV removal or have no "false positives", then you may not need anything more than an ES10/ES15.
Having said that, the ES15 fits the bill for the foreseeable balance of my VHS transfer project till done (finally).
I hate VHS. I always did.I hate VHS. I always did. -
I'm using Win 7 64bit. I have an XP pc which I'll try it on.Originally Posted by usually_quiet
In any case, I read about a TBC and the ES10 and honestly I hate throwing more money at this. Why would they make capture device that can't handle analog input properly when their purpose to begin with is to capture it. Puzzling!
The pinnacle USB-500 device has this 'vcr input' feature and it made a huge difference when I turned it on. With vcr input off, the picture was tearing like it is now with the usb-live 2. But the pinnacle 500 had terrible buggy win 7 drivers and half the time I couldn't get it to work so I gave up on it.
Furthermore, supposedly the Hi8 tape deck I have has TBC built in, yet it seems like it doesn't do much for the capture card. I tried also to pass the signal through an expensive av receiver I have (onkyo sr805) and it doesn't help on the capturing but it doesn't appear to glitch much on the projector's hdmi output although it did have some issues.
In any case, I emailed happague support to see what they say. -
For what it's worth, my USB Live2 has been bulletproof(will be capturing again tomorrow - PAL60), and I've never seen or heard of this "VCR Input" option or checkbox.
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It appears it's not offered by Hauppauge via hardware architecture or software drivers. But I do notice it offered in Empiatech em2XXX-based devices, like the ATI 600 USB, or ezcap.tv, or StarTech.Originally Posted by hech54
But I have seen no benefit, or even anything counter-productive, to using such a feature (talking about VirtualDub). At least not with any of my devices.I hate VHS. I always did. -
With S/D analog capture, you may as well have a dedicated XP capture box. It's the best all-around solution for this.Originally Posted by Event3horizon
A TBC and a capture device are two different products. I guess a TBC feature in a capture device would either be buggy, or make the device super expensive. I have a feeling many of these manufacturers or distributors hope you don't pick up on this...Originally Posted by Event3horizon
Then again, I hate telling a member to spend more money, and can relate since I grew up in a "poor" family, but I'm really saying that a mere $30US-$70US, or whatever the current S&D price for a Panasonic ES10/ES15 is, will certainly solve your problem. It's worth it and you can finally capture those tapes and move on with your life.
I'm surprised you saw a difference in "VCR Input", but then again, the Pinnacle software may have a different mindset regarding that.Originally Posted by Event3horizon
As for the Pinnacle being "buggy", this is more rule than exception with such products. I've given up on them since 2004-2005ish, and have a saying worth repeating: Pinnacle/Dazzle products are so bad you can blame a divorce on them.
I have had no success with such internal VCR TBCs, and I had, and still have, about a handful of them over the years (Ok, maybe the JVC's internal TBC did do some magic on some tapes...). Honestly, the ES15 has been the best at this after years of experience.Originally Posted by Event3horizon
I personally talked with Support at Hauppauge some years ago by phone. I think it's only one guy doing it. Nice guy, but, honestly, I personally think he's more a salesperson than anything else. Let us know how it goes.Originally Posted by Event3horizonI hate VHS. I always did. -
I just did a test and can confirm the VCR input option is still greyed out on XP. Oh well!
If I find no decent solution, then I will look into the dvd recorders. Thanks for the advice. -
No surprise to me.Originally Posted by Event3horizon
Hey, just think. Only a few bucks and your problem is solved. Wouldn't life be great if things were this easy?Originally Posted by Event3horizonI hate VHS. I always did. -
Can someone help me out to determine if this device (pioneer DVR-633H-S , manual) does the same as es10/es15?
There's a deal on a 'broken' one that doesn't have an HD, not that I need one. -
I doubt it with this unit or any Pioneer AFAIK.Originally Posted by Event3horizon
I actually have a Pioneer DVR-520H - excellent DVR, and recorder, for a decade now, but when I tried it in pass-through, it didn't work as any noticeable TBC under the hood (instead had posterization and blockiness). The extra benefit was wishful thinking, so actually had to get an ES15, an inferior recorder, to get this TBC function.
So, having said that, not all DVRs can do this.
Look for posts from member Orsetto on such units. Great info if you do a couple of searches.
No, you wouldn't care about any HD, or recording features, for this case, and if you could score a cheaper price because of this, all the better. But I don't think this unit is your TBC solution.Originally Posted by Event3horizon
I hate VHS. I always did. -
The "VCR Input" option checkbox is for a front/rear panel A/V input option mostly for PVR/HVR/Colossus model that have white 10/13pin A/V header but any case that standard filter that Hauppauge using with all there device.
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Hey man thanks for the very helpful advice. I'm going to try one more thing, had an idea. I have a mini DV camcorder that has analog input mode. If I connect the DV cable via firewire to PC, I'm going to see if it can record through it while doing correction. If not I can record to dv tape but that's going to be a terrible soluton given mini dv is 60 minutes and my hi8's are at least 120min.Originally Posted by PuzZLeR
I doubt it with this unit or any Pioneer AFAIK.Originally Posted by Event3horizon
I actually have a Pioneer DVR-520H - excellent DVR, and recorder, for a decade now, but when I tried it in pass-through, it didn't work as any noticeable TBC under the hood (instead had posterization and blockiness). The extra benefit was wishful thinking, so actually had to get an ES15, an inferior recorder, to get this TBC function.
So, having said that, not all DVRs can do this.
Look for posts from member Orsetto on such units. Great info if you do a couple of searches.
No, you wouldn't care about any HD, or recording features, for this case, and if you could score a cheaper price because of this, all the better. But I don't think this unit is your TBC solution.Originally Posted by Event3horizon
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Well, it's grayed out on the USB-Live2, so it must be enabled by default then given that it's a rather recent product.Originally Posted by SHS
I'm just curious, if you or anybody knows, what this feature enabled would do with a device like the ATI 600 USB, or similar devices capturing S/D analog video. I personally have seen no difference.I hate VHS. I always did. -
A lot of video capture chips include a line TBC function -- but few drivers enable it.
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I have heard that some cameras can do this too (internal TBC and line correction).Originally Posted by Event3horizon
However, I have no knowledge of which models can or can't, or how good it is, etc, but here's a thread on it (and maybe a few more around):
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/271552-Digital-camcorders-that-have-analog-pass-thru-TBC
As for DV, I believe it's a good format for your tapes. As for cramming the 120min into 60min, it shouldn't be a problem if you prepare in advance if you're willing to edit later on your computer (after using proper software to transfer DV to your computer). Just transfer in segments, and I would leave some common video in each end for reference, and a scene change for that easy cut/join later in your editor. (However, audio may reveal a seam if the analog capture streams have tape drift deltas, but with some experience, this too can be adjusted or blended out in an NLE.)
I still say your best solution is the ES10/ES15. If you're still interested in getting one, bear in mind that there may be posts about it having artifacts, and I too believed them at one point before my purchase. Keep in mind, most such comments were made by folks who never tried a proper DVR in pass-through, or based on opinions from other DVRs in pass-through. Such claims of posterization, MPEG recompression, blockiness, etc, have since been proven unfounded with the ES10/ES15. I too have seen no evidence of this on my unit.I hate VHS. I always did. -
This thread contains a lot of analysis of the ES15 passthrough:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1983288
That post in particular shows the effectiveness of the line TBC.
It's true that the ES15 does degrade the picture a bit -- pretty much all video processing devices do. If you have a perfect studio quality source you will find that passing through the ES15 results in a 1 or 2 percent error (of course, with a perfect studio quality source there's no reason to be using the ES15). But VHS is always "off" by much more than that. An addition 1 percent isn't going to hurt it (in fact, it maybe 1 percent better, not worse). For VHS the benefits of using the ES15 far outweigh the small problems using it may incur.
Of course, there's no guaranty the ES15 will solve your problem. The symptom you are seeing are sometimes the result of false Macrovision detection on the part of the capture device. The ES15 may or may not fix that. -
Yes, there is a difference of course, if you look real closely, and compare with multiple instances of VirtualDub at 200%+ in a very slight loss of detail in some frames. And I mean very slight, and quite frivolous. I actually got tired of such tests when they demanded much squinting to see any differences. But yes indeed, the added benefits are tremendous.Originally Posted by jagabo
Yes, it won't solve many forms of M/V, and varied forms of false positives (although, depending on tape, it can defeat a few false positives).Originally Posted by jagabo
But false positives are so random in my experience, and not consistent. If the user is getting this warping and tearing constantly I can't see it being a false positive, but with a capture setup lacking proper tools.
At any rate, I'm thinking that if it is indeed a false positive, a combination of an ES10/ES15 with a Grex could be a solution if any user wants to avoid the cost of a full-frame TBC. (Although I've never tried a Grex myself, just read posts on it, mostly positive.)
I know additional hardware and costs is not something many want to hear, but such is life with a chaotic format like VHS going digital. You can go to a chain store and purchase a solution for a few bucks, but it will suck.
I hate VHS. I always did.I hate VHS. I always did. -
As I said it for this only this in below picture so it doesn't matter if it a recent productOriginally Posted by PuzZLeR
Well, it's grayed out on the USB-Live2, so it must be enabled by default then given that it's a rather recent product.Originally Posted by SHS
I'm just curious, if you or anybody knows, what this feature enabled would do with a device like the ATI 600 USB, or similar devices capturing S/D analog video. I personally have seen no difference.
Best stay a away from any ATI Capture device they are super pickee with incoming video -
The above is certainly not an accurate description of the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB. It not only isn't picky, but it also has no automatic gain control issues, unlike other recent ATI capture products.Originally Posted by SHS
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Really then how come ATI are only one that are so over sensitive over macrovision protection even a home movie set offOriginally Posted by usually_quiet
The above is certainly not an accurate description of the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB. It not only isn't picky, but it also has no automatic gain control issues, unlike other recent ATI capture products.Originally Posted by SHS
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I haven't had that problem with the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB, and I rather doubt that you have even tried this particular ATI device. In fact I doubt that you have any direct experience in the past 7 years with any capture products not made by Hauppauge, so any appraisal by you of competing products from other makers should always be taken with a grain of salt.Originally Posted by SHS
Really then how come ATI are only one that are so over sensitive over macrovision protection even a home movie set offOriginally Posted by usually_quiet
The above is certainly not an accurate description of the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB. It not only isn't picky, but it also has no automatic gain control issues, unlike other recent ATI capture products.Originally Posted by SHS
Last edited by usually_quiet; 15th Jul 2014 at 16:39.
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That last one was ATI 650 both PCI and PCIe also know as Theater 650 Pro which have been re-label back to TV Wonder 650 be side there no longer being made by ATI or AMD in fact Diamond Multimedia bought all the chipset form AMD and beside it well know that ATI capture card are very sensitive cam home movie for can set off macrovision protection and I have saw that as well don't get me wrong there nice all but after seeing his above screenshot I beat that what going to happing.Originally Posted by usually_quiet
I haven't had that problem with the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB, and I rather doubt that you have even tried this particular ATI device. In fact I doubt that you have any direct experience in the past 7 years with any capture products not made by Hauppauge, so any appraisal by you of competing products from other makers should always be taken with a grain of salt.Originally Posted by SHS
Really then how come ATI are only one that are so over sensitive over macrovision protection even a home movie set offOriginally Posted by usually_quiet
The above is certainly not an accurate description of the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB. It not only isn't picky, but it also has no automatic gain control issues, unlike other recent ATI capture products.Originally Posted by SHS
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None of what you wrote in the quote above has anything to do with the hardware inside TV Wonder USB. If you had bothered to read post #9 in this thread, you would know that the TV Wonder 600 USB doesn't use a Theatre chip. Its chip was made by EMPIA.Originally Posted by SHS
The only capture screenshot in this thread is from a capture made using a Hauppauge USB Live 2, so maybe you should just stop typing now before you make an even bigger a fool of yourself.Last edited by usually_quiet; 15th Jul 2014 at 18:44.
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People seem to think that the ATI 650 and ATI 750 are just updates in subsequent versions of the ATI 600 USB. Not so. They are different animals entirely.
The ATI 600 USB has no issues with AGC, however it has no comb filter for Y/C leakage. Conversely, the ATI 650 USB and ATI 750 USB (or whatever they're called by their respective distributors) have comb filters, but have AGC issues.
For the record, IMO, I've had a 750. It sucked. Don't buy it.Last edited by PuzZLeR; 15th Jul 2014 at 21:34. Reason: Replaced "700" with "750" in one sentence to correct typo.
I hate VHS. I always did. -
Wrong the EMPIA is nothing more the a USB bridge and analog audio partOriginally Posted by usually_quiet
None of what you wrote in the quote above has anything to do with the hardware inside TV Wonder USB. If you had bothered to read post #9 in this thread, you would know that the TV Wonder 600 USB doesn't use a Theatre chip. Its chip was made by EMPIA.Originally Posted by SHS
The only capture screenshot in this thread is from a capture made using a Hauppauge USB Live 2, so maybe you should just stop typing now before you make an even bigger a fool of yourself.
A list of the chip on device TV Wonder 600 USB
Xceive xc3028LCQ (tuner & analog demodulator)
LG DT3303 (digital demodulator)
Texas Instruments tvp5150 (video decoder)
Empiatech em2883 (USB bridge and analog audio)
So who the bigger fool now.
DOA just look at it what make you think it going come out any better, Just because the chipset is joe's that make no diff it still has to support CGMS-A Macrovision Protection or ATI will not sell them you know that, Do you not recall this.
http://www.nepadigital.com/articles/macrovision-protection-and-non-commercial-vhs-tapes -
PS there is no 700 USBOriginally Posted by PuzZLeR
ATI 650 are all same hardware PCI, PCIe and USB and is a subsequent versions of HD 550
ATI 750 USB is a subsequent versions 600 USB
The main diff from the two is 550/650 is a Real-Time Hardware MPEG-2 Encoder where the 600/750 is a reg RAW AVI Type Capture device
Then there TV Wonder HD 750 PCIe a different animals entirely and is subsequent versions of HD 600 PCI/PCIeLast edited by SHS; 15th Jul 2014 at 20:21.
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