Digital camcorders that have analog pass-thru & TBC

[djnice]

Many of digital camcorders have TBC built in, which stronger than JVC S-VHS players, DVD Recorders or Full frame TBC-s.

Here is a short list which have, please extend:

Sony DCR-TRV110E Digital8 PAL model - I have tested, strong TBC, but the AGC causes brightness flickering on old tapes, NO sensitive on macrovision, but the DV avi is copy protected.

JVC GR DVL915U MiniDV - Strong TBC - reported davideck.

Sony DCR-TRV330 Digital8 - Strong TBC, NO sensitive on macrovision, but the DV avi is copy protected - reported gshelley61.

[ronnylov]

How is this tested then?

I am thinking of upgrading my miniDV camcorder to a new Canon HV20 which has av input. I do also have a JVC HR-S7700 VCR with built in TBC.

Should I switch off the VCR TBC and see if the results are better when capturing with the camcorder compared to capturing with my TV-card with JVC TBC turned on? Could be nice with a guide telling me how to test this. I don't think I have any macrovision protected tapes.

[djnice]

How is this tested then?

I am thinking of upgrading my miniDV camcorder to a new Canon HV20 which has av input. I do also have a JVC HR-S7700 VCR with built in TBC.

Should I switch off the VCR TBC and see if the results are better when capturing with the camcorder compared to capturing with my TV-card with JVC TBC turned on? Could be nice with a guide telling me how to test this. I don't think I have any macrovision protected tapes.

I have, a JVC HR-S7600. Yes, I switch off JVC's TBC, and compare the results via Sony cam pass-thru and JVC internal TBC on without cam. The capture device is JVC DR-MH300, which have a TBC, but on paper, because no functionality. I will post test videos.

[djnice]

Source: Old PAL VHS with strong timebase errors
Player: JVC HR-S7600, B.E.S.T. ON, Edit Mode, Digital 3R On
Recorder: JVC DR-MH300
Digital8 Cam: Sony DCR-TRV110E
Cables: Profigold S-VIDEO

1st video: JVC's TBC OFF


2nd video: JVC's TBC OFF pass-through on a Panasonic ES10


3rd video: JVC's TBC ON


4th video: JVC's TBC OFF -> Digital8 Dub
[/url]

[Apache2223]

Many of digital camcorders have TBC built in, which stronger than JVC S-VHS players, DVD Recorders or Full frame TBC-s.

Here is a short list which have, please extend:

Sony DCR-TRV110E Digital8 PAL model - I have tested, strong TBC, but the AGC causes brightness flickering on old tapes, NO sensitive on macrovision, but the DV avi is copy protected.

JVC GR DVL915U MiniDV - Strong TBC - reported davideck.

Canon Optura 20 MiniDV - Strong TBC, sensitive on Macrovision - reported gshelley61.

Sony DCR-TRV330 Digital8 - Strong TBC, NO sensitive on macrovision, but the DV avi is copy protected - reported gshelley61.

I bought a Canon Optura 20 after seeing this post and there is no TBC. Thanks gshelley61!

[Brad]

Blame the OP of this thread and your own failure to check sources. I did some searches just now; gshelley61's only posts about these never mentioned whether the Optura 20 performed TBC. He just tested Macrovision.

At any rate, thank you for posting your experience with it. What sources and players did you test with?

[Apache2223]

Blame the OP of this thread and your own failure to check sources. I did some searches just now; gshelley61's only posts about these never mentioned whether the Optura 20 performed TBC. He just tested Macrovision.

At any rate, thank you for posting your experience with it. What sources and players did you test with?

I haven't been able to test anything yet. And the reason I failed to check other sources is because I was checking out the camcorders in an auction and when I saw the Optura, I vaguely remembered this post saying it had a strong TBC. There was about 3 minutes left, so I found this post and read it again and it was the right camera, so I went right back and bid with a few seconds left and won. His post says "Many of digital camcorders have TBC built in, which stronger than JVC S-VHS players, DVD Recorders or Full frame TBC-s.

Here is a short list which have, please extend:" And underneath this it says "Canon Optura 20 MiniDV - Strong TBC, sensitive on Macrovision - reported gshelley61." So going by this, was I not supposed to think it had a TBC? Or as he/she put it, a "Strong TBC?"

[usually_quiet]

Blame the OP of this thread and your own failure to check sources. I did some searches just now; gshelley61's only posts about these never mentioned whether the Optura 20 performed TBC. He just tested Macrovision.

At any rate, thank you for posting your experience with it. What sources and players did you test with?

I haven't been able to test anything yet. And the reason I failed to check other sources is because I was checking out the camcorders in an auction and when I saw the Optura, I vaguely remembered this post saying it had a strong TBC. There was about 3 minutes left, so I found this post and read it again and it was the right camera, so I went right back and bid with a few seconds left and won. His post says "Many of digital camcorders have TBC built in, which stronger than JVC S-VHS players, DVD Recorders or Full frame TBC-s.

Here is a short list which have, please extend:" And underneath this it says "Canon Optura 20 MiniDV - Strong TBC, sensitive on Macrovision - reported gshelley61." So going by this, was I not supposed to think it had a TBC? Or as he/she put it, a "Strong TBC?"

It is reasonable to warn others that the djnice posted some incorrect information about the Canon Optura 20 MiniDV. However, since gshelley61 didn't actually write the post that inspired your purchase, I agree that you are blaming the wrong person for the incorrect information.

[Brad]

thank you for posting your experience with it. What sources and players did you test with?

I haven't been able to test anything yet.

Wait, what? Was your post prompted solely by the fact that the manual doesn't mention TBC?

[lordsmurf]

Many of digital camcorders have TBC built in, which stronger than JVC S-VHS players, DVD Recorders or Full frame TBC-s.

This is false. DV cameras on passthrough have very minimal timebase correction (when TBC is actually present), often merely weak line timing.

Sony DCR-TRV110E Digital8 PAL model - I have tested, strong TBC, but the AGC causes brightness flickering on old tapes, NO sensitive on macrovision, but the DV avi is copy protected.
JVC GR DVL915U MiniDV - Strong TBC - reported davideck.
Canon Optura 20 MiniDV - Strong TBC, sensitive on Macrovision - reported gshelley61.
Sony DCR-TRV330 Digital8 - Strong TBC, NO sensitive on macrovision, but the DV avi is copy protected - reported gshelley61.

This makes no sense. If the TBC was actually functioning, you'd not have AGC issues, which are likely triggered from "false MV" (aka detection of natural video errors, not just artificial MV errors). This differs from capture cards with AGC issues.

I have, a JVC HR-S7600. Yes, I switch off JVC's TBC, and compare the results via Sony cam pass-thru and JVC internal TBC on without cam.

That test is dubious. I'd have to seen some test caps of that.

JVC DR-MH300, which have a TBC

No, it does not.

[Apache2223]

thank you for posting your experience with it. What sources and players did you test with?

I haven't been able to test anything yet.

Wait, what? Was your post prompted solely by the fact that the manual doesn't mention TBC?

Not just in the manual, but nowhere in settings or on the camera is a TBC setting or switch.

[Apache2223]

Blame the OP of this thread and your own failure to check sources. I did some searches just now; gshelley61's only posts about these never mentioned whether the Optura 20 performed TBC. He just tested Macrovision.

At any rate, thank you for posting your experience with it. What sources and players did you test with?

I haven't been able to test anything yet. And the reason I failed to check other sources is because I was checking out the camcorders in an auction and when I saw the Optura, I vaguely remembered this post saying it had a strong TBC. There was about 3 minutes left, so I found this post and read it again and it was the right camera, so I went right back and bid with a few seconds left and won. His post says "Many of digital camcorders have TBC built in, which stronger than JVC S-VHS players, DVD Recorders or Full frame TBC-s.

Here is a short list which have, please extend:" And underneath this it says "Canon Optura 20 MiniDV - Strong TBC, sensitive on Macrovision - reported gshelley61." So going by this, was I not supposed to think it had a TBC? Or as he/she put it, a "Strong TBC?"

It is reasonable to warn others that the djnice posted some incorrect information about the Canon Optura 20 MiniDV. However, since gshelley61 didn't actually write the post that inspired your purchase, I agree that you are blaming the wrong person for the incorrect information.

I wasn't really trying to blame anyone, I paid $18 for the camcorder, so it's not a big deal. I'm just used to being around a bunch of friends that rip on each other all the time. So by me saying thanks gshelley61!, I was just busting his balls. I grew up in Illinois, so I'm a little different...lol. My apologies to everyone offended.

[Apache2223]

Many of digital camcorders have TBC built in, which stronger than JVC S-VHS players, DVD Recorders or Full frame TBC-s.

This is false. DV cameras on passthrough have very minimal timebase correction (when TBC is actually present), often merely weak line timing.

Sony DCR-TRV110E Digital8 PAL model - I have tested, strong TBC, but the AGC causes brightness flickering on old tapes, NO sensitive on macrovision, but the DV avi is copy protected.
JVC GR DVL915U MiniDV - Strong TBC - reported davideck.
Canon Optura 20 MiniDV - Strong TBC, sensitive on Macrovision - reported gshelley61.
Sony DCR-TRV330 Digital8 - Strong TBC, NO sensitive on macrovision, but the DV avi is copy protected - reported gshelley61.

This makes no sense. If the TBC was actually functioning, you'd not have AGC issues, which are likely triggered from "false MV" (aka detection of natural video errors, not just artificial MV errors). This differs from capture cards with AGC issues.

I have, a JVC HR-S7600. Yes, I switch off JVC's TBC, and compare the results via Sony cam pass-thru and JVC internal TBC on without cam.

That test is dubious. I'd have to seen some test caps of that.

JVC DR-MH300, which have a TBC

No, it does not.

I was thinking the same thing about not having AGC issues if there was a functioning TBC, but I wasn't going to say anything. Seems like the TBC would take care of it. But I still know nothing compared to you, so I need to do alot more soaking-up before I open my yapper! And btw, I'll be able to report on the JVC GR DVL915U Tuesday. Because yes.......I bought one of those too.....ughhh! At least I got them cheap I guess.....

[Brad]

thank you for posting your experience with it. What sources and players did you test with?

I haven't been able to test anything yet.

Wait, what? Was your post prompted solely by the fact that the manual doesn't mention TBC?

Not just in the manual, but nowhere in settings or on the camera is a TBC setting or switch.

There doesn't need to be. None of the DVD recorders I own that perform line TBC of inputs offer such a setting, either. The way to find out if it does line TBC is to feed in a signal and see.

Many of digital camcorders have TBC built in, which stronger than JVC S-VHS players, DVD Recorders or Full frame TBC-s.

This is false. DV cameras on passthrough have very minimal timebase correction (when TBC is actually present), often merely weak line timing.

Davideck's test of one model, which this thread refers to: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/230650-Confused-Why-a-VCR-with-TBC-if-separate-TBC-needed-anyway/page3#post1358696

Sony DCR-TRV110E Digital8 PAL model - I have tested, strong TBC, but the AGC causes brightness flickering on old tapes, NO sensitive on macrovision, but the DV avi is copy protected.
JVC GR DVL915U MiniDV - Strong TBC - reported davideck.
Canon Optura 20 MiniDV - Strong TBC, sensitive on Macrovision - reported gshelley61.
Sony DCR-TRV330 Digital8 - Strong TBC, NO sensitive on macrovision, but the DV avi is copy protected - reported gshelley61.

This makes no sense. If the TBC was actually functioning, you'd not have AGC issues, which are likely triggered from "false MV" (aka detection of natural video errors, not just artificial MV errors). This differs from capture cards with AGC issues.

What? AGC and Macrovision detection don't have to be related.

I have, a JVC HR-S7600. Yes, I switch off JVC's TBC, and compare the results via Sony cam pass-thru and JVC internal TBC on without cam.

That test is dubious. I'd have to seen some test caps of that.

Simply time-travel to summer 2007 when the posts you're responding to were made. He posted screenshot links that are long-dead.

My test where JVC D-VHS TBC has flagging while Sony Digital8 doesn't: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/383020-In-depth-TBC-comparison-with-bad-VHS-%28video-samples%29

JVC DR-MH300, which have a TBC

No, it does not.

Are you serious? You cut off the part where he says it's a false claim:

JVC DR-MH300, which have a TBC, but on paper, because no functionality.

[lordsmurf]

Davideck's test of one model, which this thread refers to:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/230650-Confused-Why-a-VCR-with-TBC-if-separate-TBC...e3#post1358696

Still image vs. motion, and it would highly likely show weak line timing. The still itself shows line timing. The problem with "weak" isn't necessarily in correction ability (some are), but also in the buffer getting quickly flooded, and then line timing fails, until buffer open up again. This is very evident on latter ES series Panasonic recorders and Canopous ADVC-300. These do something, fleetingly, but otherwise nothing. I care about sustained correction/filtering.

What? AGC and Macrovision detection don't have to be related.

I fully agree. But marriage of AGC+Macrovision usually is the case.

Simply time-travel to summer 2007

My DeLorian is in the shop again, needs another flux capacitor.

My test where JVC D-VHS TBC has flagging

Not uncommon.

Are you serious? You cut off the part where he says it's a false claim:
"JVC DR-MH300, which have a TBC, [B]but on paper, because no functionality."

I doubt the veracity of the "paper" claim to begin with. My research says otherwise. No such TBC exists, not that it simply has "no functionality".

[Apache2223]

@lordsmurf I knew a guy who had an old beat up DeLorian. If you've ever watched Trailer Park Boys, this guy had to be who they based the character Cyrus after. Hahaha! I forgot all about him, thanks for reminding me!...lol...he was a ........well, here ya go if you don't know who he is... https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=MZwXoDyj9Vc

[Brad]

Here are some DR-MH300 specs listings that claim TBC:

https://www.komplett.dk/product/323533#
https://www.arukereso.hu/asztali-dvd-lejatszo-es-felvevo-c3163/jvc/dr-mh300-p1800504/
https://www.avmagazine.it/forum/archive/index.php/t-42899.html

While searching for these I actually found a Hungarian forum where djnice is still active: https://prohardver.hu/tema/video_digitalizalas_tv_tuner/friss.html

[Apache2223]

@vaporeon800 I didn't know that some camcorders don't have switches or a way to turn off the TBC in settings. All the ones I have researched have a way to turn it off, so I just assumed it was all of them. And I remember reading it's because with some tapes, the TBC being on causes problems. I have 3 camcorders now (as of 30 min ago) and all 3 have a way to turn it on and off. But anyway, in the original post it says "JVC GR DVL915U MiniDV - Strong TBC - reported davideck." I just got this camera, so when it charges up I will try it and report.

[Brad]

All the ones I have researched have a way to turn it off, so I just assumed it was all of them. And I remember reading it's because with some tapes, the TBC being on causes problems. I have 3 camcorders now (as of 30 min ago) and all 3 have a way to turn it on and off.

Which models?

Sony's Digital8 cams have selectable TBC for its own analog playback, but it's always-on for externally input AV -> DV conversion.

[Apache2223]

All the ones I have researched have a way to turn it off, so I just assumed it was all of them. And I remember reading it's because with some tapes, the TBC being on causes problems. I have 3 camcorders now (as of 30 min ago) and all 3 have a way to turn it on and off.

Which models?

Sony's Digital8 cams have selectable TBC for its own analog playback, but it's always-on for externally input AV -> DV conversion.

JVC GR-AXM18U, GR-SXM260US, GR-AX760U, GRDVL915U, GR-SXM240U, GR-SXM195AS, GR-SX851U and GR-SXM37U to name a few. I have looked at so many, I can't recall all of them or even remember which makes I was looking at...lol. Getting old sucks! Also, I haven't had time to try the GR-DVL915U I got today, hopefully I'll have time tomorrow.

[lordsmurf]

Here are some DR-MH300 specs listings that claim TBC:

I don't doubt specs listings exist. I doubt the accuracy of the listing. Because, as noted, no such TBC effects can be observed. It's not uncommon for documentation like that to be haphazardly put together by a marketing department, rather than the engineers that built it. I've come across this problem on many other devices, video or otherwise.

[oln]

I guess it depends what one considers to qualify as a TBC. It does buffer and digitize frames before outputting them like most DVRs, but it doesn't correct horizontal wiggle particularly well. It also re-creates macrovision on the output (and enables HDCP on HDMI) if detected on the input. I did a comparison a while back, so I'll let the reader judge for themselves whether what it does is useful:

Raw capture to Diamond VC500:
VC500 raw.mp4
Through DR-MH300
(think it was grabbed through HDMI, but analog out acts similarly, though it did seem to move the frame up two pixels):
JVC DR-MH300.mp4
Through Datavideo TBC-3000:
Datavideo TBC-3000.mp4
Through Pioneer DVR-440:
Pioneer DVR-440H.mp4

All from a crummy tape played on a 2-head Samsung VCR. I did one with an ES10 as well, but I seem to have lost the recording.

[Brad]

All the ones I have researched have a way to turn it off, so I just assumed it was all of them. And I remember reading it's because with some tapes, the TBC being on causes problems. I have 3 camcorders now (as of 30 min ago) and all 3 have a way to turn it on and off.

Which models?

Sony's Digital8 cams have selectable TBC for its own analog playback, but it's always-on for externally input AV -> DV conversion.

JVC GR-AXM18U, GR-SXM260US, GR-AX760U, GRDVL915U, GR-SXM240U, GR-SXM195AS, GR-SX851U and GR-SXM37U to name a few.
...
I haven't had time to try the GR-DVL915U I got today, hopefully I'll have time tomorrow.

Only the bolded model is a digital camcorder that can be used to digitize external inputs. Are you including it among the 3 you own that "have a way to turn it on and off"? A search of the manual for "TBC" and "base" shows no relevant results.

The others are (S-)VHS-C cams whose selectable TBC, if any, applies only to internal playback. So it's the same situation as the Sony Digital8 models; any correction of external signals, or lack thereof, is not exposed as a user setting.

---

@lordsmurf: near as I can tell, you're not disagreeing with djnice or myself regarding what he said about the DR-MH300's actual functionality. My interpretation of his Hungarian English matches what you're saying. Apparently we have a disagreement over what the term "on paper" means.

1. He says there is a TBC "on paper" but that it does nothing = specs claim TBC but no [line] TBC effects can be observed.
2. You quote only the first part of his statement, and state yourself that it has no TBC effects.
3. I mention your quote-edit.
4. You say you doubt JVC ever claimed a TBC "on paper".
5. I post links where JVC specs claimed TBC.
6. You say you in fact never doubted that JVC claimed a TBC in specs (i.e. "on paper"). (?!)

JVC DR-MH300, which have a TBC

No, it does not.

Are you serious? You cut off the part where he says it's a false claim:

JVC DR-MH300, which have a TBC, but on paper, because no functionality.

I doubt the veracity of the "paper" claim to begin with. My research says otherwise. No such TBC exists, not that it simply has "no functionality".

Here are some DR-MH300 specs listings that claim TBC:

I don't doubt specs listings exist. I doubt the accuracy of the listing. Because, as noted, no such TBC effects can be observed.

[lordsmurf]

@lordsmurf: near as I can tell, you're not disagreeing with djnice or myself regarding what he said about the DR-MH300's actual functionality. My interpretation of his Hungarian English matches what you're saying. Apparently we have a disagreement over what the term "on paper" means.

Pretty much.

[Apache2223]

@vaporeon800 OK, I get it now. 2 of my 3 ccorders have TBC, but do not have the ability to passthrough video, only use the TBC during playback. And those 2 are in excellent shape and work perfectly. The JVC GR-DVL915U that I just purchased has a mechanism issue that won't allow me to use it as a passthrough. The mech will raise and sometimes open, but it just doesn't sound right and kinda "catches"or "snags" on the way up. When I put a tape in, it will close properly-ish (doesn't sound right, like it has a low battery, but I'm using the AC adapter), but the tape gets eaten and usually rips. BUT! Luckily I got it cheap and it will be disassembled and will be my first mechanism repair attempt...lol. Tonight I bought a DCR-TRV320, which plays 8, hi8 and Dig8, plus has a TBC and DNR. So hopefully it all works and I can at least try it out. And btw, I agree with lordsmurf's description of ccorder TBC's vs actual TBC's, but it became personal to me to get a ccorder that actually worked AND had a TBC for me to try. Because every one I bought that had one didn't work and the ones that didn't have a TBC almost all worked perfectly. And I always see these situations as me losing, unless I halt the screwing process that my imagination tells me is going on. And it usually costs me 10x more in the long run, than if I would have just done the right thing in the first place. I hope at least half of this made sense as I am obviously horrible at explaining things.

[Alwyn]

My interest was piqued by the tests above by DJNice with the TRV-110E as a TBC. I have one, which I have just dug out of a box from years ago, and want to try this.

When I switch to "VTR" and plug in a analogue source, I get the video displayed on the LCD screen OK. But when I plug in the Firewire cable (with the other end in my PC, or my ES-15 DV port), the TRV-110 screen goes blue and "DV IN" is displayed. I can't find anything in the menus that give an option to switch to DV OUT, although the DV port is labelled DV IN/OUT (obviously, OUT occurs when a tape is played). There's no mention in the manual about Passthrough.

Can anybody shed any light on what I need to do to get the Passthrough working, or do I have a non-pass 110?

[oln]

If it supports it, there should be an av in -> dv out option in the menus somewhere. It was often firmware disabled from the factory on the PAL models though from what I've read.

[Alwyn]

Thanks Oln, It seems I might be out of luck then. but will keep researching. That widget thingee doesn't look like it's available any more.

[oln]

On the DCR-TRV330E I've used, there was a menu option for it to turn it on, so if it's missing it may be disabled yea.

I tried to make one of those lanc to parallel thingies to try to mess with service mode stuff, but I haven't managed to get it to work yet. Anyway there are easier options than tinkering with that if you're looking just for some TBC replacement.

[Alwyn]

Yes, I have a DVK coming and am already using an ES-15, but thought I might have a no-cost option already. Thanks again for your input; I appreciate it.