Wise choice to deinterlace that DVD material?

[Weef]

I've been asking myself if it would be really a wise choice to deinterlace this DVD material.
Mainly because of these reason that the used patterns are very filigree and I want to loose as little detail as possible.
Additionally the 3D Models in the surrounding are already not rendered with the most exact light and seem blurry here and there.
Other thing is, that I already had to bring it to the format of 752x480 which seems closer to the original ratio.
Should I really risk loosing too much video information in this personal project, I've been wanting to edit and translate for years? That's already the export in uncompressed 4:2:2

[jagabo]

Inverse telecine (if it's film based)? Yes, if you're going to reencode anyway. Simple deinterlace? No. Advanced deinterlace (QTGMC, for example)? Maybe, depending on what you're going to do with it.

[Weef]

Na...it's a series of 24 episodes each about 24mins long.

[manono]

Na...it's a series of 24 episodes each about 24mins long.

Your response was completely irrelevant to the point jagabo was making. Anime episodes are often film based.

For further help it's best you post a short untouched sample directly from the source, 10 seconds or so showing steady movement.

[Weef]

Sry, I didn't read tht between the lines.
Steady movement... tricky....across the whole frame or just as much as possible and what's the usual movement there?

[jagabo]

A panning shot and some character animation. Typically, panning shots are done at 24 fps or 30 fps, depending on whether it's film or TV. Character animation is typically done at 12 or 15 fps. Again depending on whether it's film or TV. Then you have videos that are hybrids, some parts shot on film at 24 fps, effects added as video at 29.97 fps.

[Weef]

Ok, on it!

[Weef]

Not really able to find a spot that includes all this under 20sec
Which codec can I can I use?....simply uncompressed end up huge

[poisondeathray]

In your screenshot, the top right image has combing in the eye , middle right and bottom right shows some bad interlaced chroma upsampling artifacts (but might be the way you took the screenshot, or the editing software you're using; hard to say without more information)

Not really able to find a spot that includes all this under 20sec
Which codec can I can I use?....simply uncompressed end up huge

The sample doesn't need to "include all this" , it just needs to be a sample with steady motion , like a panning shot, from the original dvd . The important thing is that it can't be processed in anyway (not re-encoded, or decoded through some editing program.) . You can use dgindex or mpg2cut for this. If necessary cut a few samples from different scenes if they have different characteristics

[Weef]

I've put together two packages of 2 clips each.
The frist package is 25MB in size and the second with a little longer clips about 60MB.
I tried to include scenes with a lot of dynamic in movement and different types of animations.

http://www.file-upload.net/download-7481536/Pack1.zip.html
http://www.file-upload.net/download-7481843/Pack2.zip.html

[poisondeathray]

These are progressive - you would IVTC this

You do not deinterlace progressive material (reduces effective resolution, lower quality)

[x264]

Use TIVTC.

http://web.missouri.edu/~kes25c/

[Weef]

Hmmm, so is Premiere Pro interlacing as standardoption in preview... seems so.
Other question if I want to achieve the 752x480, what's the best way to go?
Should I just strecht the pixels and color information or natively render it in 752x480, and if yes, whats the best way/filter to render it in these 752x480??

[poisondeathray]

Hmmm, so is Premiere Pro interlacing as standardoption in preview... seems so.
Other question if I want to achieve the 752x480, what's the best way to go?

Premiere will interpret it as interlaced, so you will get combing artifacts. Even if you interpret it as progressive, you will get duplicate frames . It will also upsample the chroma as interlaced (you can see the color notching in some of your screenshots) , if you convert to RGB (e.g. if you use some RGB filters)

You're probably not familar with telecine (being in Germany) . NTSC film DVD's are 23.976p content, but they use pulldown to output a 59.94 fields per second signal. The content is progressive but the output signal is interlaced due to field repeats. The reason why this is done is to make it compatible with NTSC standards and equipment (mostly North America)

In order to get back the original progressive film frames, you need to inverse telecine (also called remove pulldown)

Premiere can't do this properly; After Effects can, but it's none adaptive IVTC (if there is a cadence break, you will get problems with the cycle and the result of the results after that break will be incorrect).

The "best" way to do this is in avisynth, eg. TIVTC as mentioned above

Should I just strecht the pixels and color information or natively render it in 752x480, and if yes, whats the best way/filter to render it in these 752x480??

It depends what you want to do with it, how you're going to watch it (e.g. web, computer file, DVD,etc...)

If you're going back to NTSC DVD, I would keep it 720x480, like the original with AR flags

[Weef]

No it's actually just meant for the computer to watch it on.
Nonetheless I now have the intro credits and the ending credits made in Premiere, so I will have to input this break forcefully....what should best do?
And what's now better for a resolution of 752x480, to stretch the pixels and the subsampling information or generate new artifical pixels and stretch the frame this way?

[poisondeathray]

No it's actually just meant for the computer to watch it on.
Nonetheless I now have the intro credits and the ending credits made in Premiere, so I will have to input this break forcefully....what should best do?

And what's now better for a resolution of 752x480, to stretch the pixels and the subsampling information or generate new artifical pixels and stretch the frame this way?

The subsampling information: The original source DVD is Y'CbCr 4:2:0 . Y' 720x480 , CbCr 360x240

Where do you get this 752x480 number from ???

The frame size is 720x480 (non square pixels), but it's 16:9 , so the square pixel equivalent would be about 854x480 depending on which AR standards you're going with. Just open the 4th clip ("VTS_01_4.MPG") and look at the "globe" - Presumably it's supposed to look like a sphere, not an egg . Also the 1st clip has some planets in the background . At 752x480, they look too oval to me, but at 854x480 they look about right

EDIT: This actually has a sequence display extension, but most DVD players and software players ignore that

For DVD source material I usually leave it at original source dimensions and use aspect ratio flags . But many people prefer to resize using square pixels

[Weef]

I will upload the two sequences I use as reference.
Actually I ended up with your values too... but I find a lot of the vividness is lost and the outlines don't remain as crisp.... since I wouldn't know what filters to use I steped away from that dimension.

[poisondeathray]

I will upload the two sequences I use as reference.
Actually I ended up with your values two... but I find a lot of the vividness is lost and the outlines don't remain as crisp.... since I wouldn't what filters to use I steped away from that dimension.

It's essentially the same thing, really

If you encode it as source dimensions 720x480, the software media player will "stretch" it to 16:9 or ~854x480 upon playback. Then it's up to the scaling algorithm used in the player. If you set it to use a soft resizer, it will be soft. If you use a sharp resizer, it will be more crisp, but start to have ringing artifacts . The benefit of encoding it anamorphic - its fewer pixels, smaller filesize for the same level of "quality"

By encoding it square pixel, you can control the algorithm and any post processing used

[Weef]

I wanted to go square anyways... has the best density and vividness
Why couldn't I apply the filters on any other but square pixels??

[poisondeathray]

I wanted to go square anyways... has the best density and vividness
Why couldn't I apply the filters on any other but square pixels??

Of course you can apply other filters , square or not square pixels

I mean in terms of the resizing algorithm. Maybe you want a 9 tap filter, or some different resizing algorithm like Blackman, Jinc , or NNEDI3_rpow2 etc. These things are often not available through software players at realtime playback - they typically only have a few available like bilinear, bicubic resizing (bilinear is usually default because it's the lowest CPU usage, very good for playback, but it's also soft). So unless you playback the file through a script, you will not have access to those other things

[Weef]

These are references I'm using... it's tricky to have 2D characters in a 3D background - so I use the dinner table, which is long enough to give an idea... and then the scene with fireworks and setting earth.

http://www.file-upload.net/download-7483241/Pack-3.zip.html

Tell me what you think...

[poisondeathray]

These are references I'm using... it's tricky to have 2D characters in a 3D background - so I use the dinner table, which is long enough to give an idea... and then the scene with fireworks and setting earth.

http://www.file-upload.net/download-7483241/Pack-3.zip.html

Tell me what you think...

What do you mean "references" ? Can you clarify references for what ? What am I supposed to be thinking ?

BTW, it's not really 3D, and it doesn't have 3D models - it's 2D animation in 3D space (z-depth , with 2D layers - it's also called "2.5D") .

If you're using these for reference sequences for AR consideration, look at the planet in the background of the balcony . Take a known object, shot straight on (imagine if you were shooting this through a camera) - the planets in the various clips are the best example . You can draw a perfect circle in photoshop or image editor to see what it should be (the assumtion is that the planets are not oval). You could take a car tire in one of the scenes, but it was never oriented straight on to the camera

[Weef]

So now we have established that planets are round....good
But how can I keep the outlines crisp when upscaling?
Should I use a combination of a slightly more strechted and rendered video plus wider pixel ratio?
If it comes to choose between the crispness and vividness of the material vs the perfect oundness of some planets, I would definitively, in this case, choose the crispness over the other.

[manono]

Tell me what you think...

Think about what? It's still telecined. IVTC it as already suggested several times. I see no need for anything Adobe at all. This is such a top quality anime (except for the need to IVTC it), that I don't see the need for any other additional filtering.

What I don't understand is why the MPG plays as 2.40:1. Is it because of the sequence display extension, and related to him having made an MPG out of it rather than uploading a VOB or M2V? I don't think the DVD would play this way.

If it comes to choose between the crispness and vividness of the material vs the perfect oundness of some planets, I would definitively, in this case, choose the crispness over the other.

You're joking, right? You'd purposely screw up the aspect ratio in favor of something else, whatever 'crispness and vividness' mean. You're still doing this in Adobe, aren't you? If you want to resize it to 1:1, then go LanczosResize(854,480) or some such. If you want a sharper video, then use a sharpener. If you want more saturation or brightness or contrast, then use the appropriate AviSynth filter. You don't need Adobe.

[poisondeathray]

So now we have established that planets are round....good
But how can I keep the outlines crisp when upscaling?
Should I use a combination of a slightly more strechted and rendered video plus wider pixel ratio?
If it comes to choose between the crispness and vividness of the material vs the perfect oundness of some planets, I would definitively, in this case, choose the crispness over the other.

Technically it's not "upscaling" because the height is always 480

If you watch the original DVD it will be "stretched" to 16:9 when you view it on the HDTV as well . The planets will look round and spherical, not "oval"

You can add mild sharpening if you want , if you feel it's too soft

Note - many of the scenes in this type of animation are intentionally soft , for a misty, diffusion look . That's the intended style. And although it's 2D animation, they use blurring for a simulated depth of field look

[poisondeathray]

What I don't understand is why the MPG plays as 2.40:1. Is it because of the sequence display extension, and related to him having made an MPG out of it rather than uploading a VOB or M2V? I don't think the DVD would play this way.

Which player was that in manono ?

Some software players play it as 16:9 e.g. kmplayer , smplayer, vlc

gspot says the sequence display extension is 540x480 , but I think most players ignore that

[Weef]

I could switch and do a lot of the work... in Virtual Dub....but the export of the intro and credits has to go the way from Adobe products.... because I did it there and don't have a better program for that purpose.
I have access to two sources... US DVDs(6DVDs 4 episodes each) and chinese DVDs(12DVDs, 2 Episodes each)
For the episodes I'm using the chinese DVDs because they are not compressed the way as the US DVDs are (noticeale in some gradients)
For credits and intro the bonus features of the US DVD releases which came with textless intro and outro.

[manono]

Which player was that in manono ?

Some old version of MPC-HC. Even MediaInfo says it:

General
Complete name : E:\Test\dinner table.MPG
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 32.3 MiB
Duration : 27s 392ms
Overall bit rate : 9 895 Kbps

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Duration : 26s 893ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 8 759 Kbps
Nominal bit rate : 9 300 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 2.35
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Colorimetry : 4:2:0
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.898

Audio
ID : 128 (0x80)
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Duration : 27s 392ms
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Surround: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Video delay : -43ms

Text #1
ID : 32 (0x20)
Format : RLE
Format/Info : Run-length encoding
Video delay : 27s 261ms

Text #2
ID : 33 (0x21)
Format : RLE
Format/Info : Run-length encoding
Video delay : 27s 261ms

Menu
Format : DVD-Video

Well, this MediaInfo says 2.35:1. The one in the player says 2.40:1. I was just curious as I know the DVD plays fine. I've even worked on this one before. It's one of the very best, in my opinion.

[poisondeathray]

Well what kind of sequence settings did you use in premiere?

I have a feeling it's not going to be good, but sometimes credit sequence run differently than the episodes

Was it done with the US or Chinese source?

[Weef]

Which one...the extration of the episodes or the credits (Intro/Outro)?
Episodes = chinese DVDs
Intro/Outro= US DVDs as well as prolog

So all the uploads till now are part of the chinese DVDs