How do I ajust the sharp/softness on my Panasonic VCR? Picture seems grainy

[orsetto]

robjv1, I've been wondering for a couple years now how more than a tiny handful of these ever made it to the USA market, given we had no analog HDTV broadcasts and no consumer throngs chomping at the bit for a $4995 vcr. On a whim just now I changed the terms of my google search, and a few random hits popped up that were interesting. The most important was that I completely forgot JVC was heavily involved with DiSH satellite at one point, and partnered with them an in ill-fated DVHS promotion. Based on this relationship with DiSH and early HDTV satellite, someone at JVC got the bright idea to unload all the leftover analog WVHS from Japan on the USA market, repackaging them as component-input accessories for DiSH. That, my friends, was the source of whatever WVHS units are floating around eBay in North America. After some digging, I ran across a couple archived forum threads that were all atwitter back in 2004 as the last of these "refurbished" SR-W5U and SR-W7U models were dumped here thru a couple liquidation dealers for about $999. Price was the same for either, but the SR-W5U was already sitting on US docks for immediate delivery while the SR-W7U "refurb" was ordered one at a time from Japan.

I gather the issue of fragile plugs in the SR-W5U was a very big problem for some users. Some of these refurbs needed service almost immediately, strangely the SR-W7U more than the SR-W5U, and the gist of all the thread moaning was JVC had only three techs in the entire USA who even knew what the WVHS looked like, only one in Texas who actually had training, and the other two had beefs with him so none would talk to each other. I'm guessing that situation hasn't improved much in 2012. I'm sure you've already seen most of this stuff, but for the newly-curious like MiniMe and samlyn, here's a link to one of those old threads (you may need to click on a followup "view archived thread?" alert box).

[robjv1]

I redid a few images from earlier, trying to line each of them up in a way that you can open each in an individual tab and flip through them using CTRL + TAB (in Firefox at least) and see the changes. From left to right is the Panasonic PV-9451, JVC SR-V101US in edit mode, same VCR in NORM, and the JVC SR-W5U.

Edit: if that doesn't work, downloading them to the same folder and using the Windows Photo Viewer and the left and right arrows works well too.

[robjv1]

robjv1, I've been wondering for a couple years now how more than a tiny handful of these ever made it to the USA market, given we had no analog HDTV broadcasts and no consumer throngs chomping at the bit for a $4995 vcr. On a whim just now I changed the terms of my google search, and a few random hits popped up that were interesting. The most important was that I completely forgot JVC was heavily involved with DiSH satellite at one point, and partnered with them an in ill-fated DVHS promotion. Based on this relationship with DiSH and early HDTV satellite, someone at JVC got the bright idea to unload all the leftover analog WVHS from Japan on the USA market, repackaging them as component-input accessories for DiSH. That, my friends, was the source of whatever WVHS units are floating around eBay in North America. After some digging, I ran across a couple archived forum threads that were all atwitter back in 2004 as the last of these "refurbished" SR-W5U and SR-W7U models were dumped here thru a couple liquidation dealers for about $999. Price was the same for either, but the SR-W5U was already sitting on US docks for immediate delivery while the SR-W7U "refurb" was ordered one at a time from Japan.

That is VERY interesting. I've read some of those posts in the past, but I wasn't able to put two and two together like you just did haha. That makes a ton of sense too, given that all of the serial #s I've seen on these units tend to very close together. That explains why there are so many SR-W5Us in relation to SR-W7Us too. I remember reading the SR-W7Us were gone in that sale far before the SR-W5Us.

I think I remember reading some people got hosed (no returns) on the deal when their units pushed a very green looking image out of the component ports. My first WVHS deck came with several W-VHS program tapes (some sports highlights, a nature documentary, a demo tape) a few W-VHS blank tapes and several D9 tapes, so I assume they were dumping those off on these guys too. I spent about 5 minutes looking at the WVHS program tapes, which looked very good as I recall, I'll have to pull them out and see if any of my decks have the dreaded green push.

EDIT: It's kind of funny to read stories of these guys drilling holes in their SVHS tapes so that they could use them in place of the expensive D9 / discontinued WVHS tapes after dropping $1000 on a dead-end format VCR.

[NJRoadfan]

EDIT: It's kind of funny to read stories of these guys drilling holes in their SVHS tapes so that they could use them in place of the expensive D9 / discontinued WVHS tapes after dropping $1000 on a dead-end format VCR.

Whats even more amusing is that they expected it to actually work. WVHS and Digital-S (D9) use metal tape!

[Mini-Me]

On the subject of the W5U, another one just went for $837.73 a moment ago! That's not a typo, by the way. The second-highest bidder put in $827.73...and I thought I was going to nail it for sure for a nearly-as-insane $711.11, but I came home with the bronze. Hopefully this was just some kind of anomaly. Sheesh.

[robjv1]

Geez! I saw it at $500 the other day, I was sure it wouldn't go for more than $550, I can't believe it got up that high. I paid an average of around $600 for the few I have (one for a steal, one I way overpaid on) but that was in the time when their reputation was ridiculously high because very few people on here owned them and the ones that did had nothing but good experiences with them. The price seemed to drop after that, but obviously it has recovered.

That particular deck looked to be in pretty primo condition based on the sellers description, so that may have played a factor. A lot of these decks come with no accessories or missing parts (no remote, no cleaning tape, missing the plastic side panels, missing the front VHS slot door, etc) so having all those additional things in the auction does make the sellers claim of it being a deck with only one owner seem more plausible.

Helping to confirm Orsetto's idea that all of these decks likely originated from the same fire sale -- the serial # on the deck for sale is 15310029 and the one I have in my video rack right now is 15310085.

Something else I bet Orsetto could shed some light on that pops to mind after looking at pictures of the latest SR-W5U auction -- I notice that almost every single one of these decks has the same little orange sticker on them. If you can get a good look at it, they all read "City of Los Angeles, Approved for Electrical Safety - Department of Building and Safety" and they have a number on them that usually reads DF14####." Any reason why they all would have passed through California and had to be certified in this manner?

[Mini-Me]

Geez! I saw it at $500 the other day, I was sure it wouldn't go for more than $550, I can't believe it got up that high. I paid an average of around $600 for the few I have (one for a steal, one I way overpaid on) but that was in the time when their reputation was ridiculously high because very few people on here owned them and the ones that did had nothing but good experiences with them. The price seemed to drop after that, but obviously it has recovered.

That particular deck looked to be in pretty primo condition based on the sellers description, so that may have played a factor. A lot of these decks come with no accessories or missing parts (no remote, no cleaning tape, missing the plastic side panels, missing the front VHS slot door, etc) so having all those additional things in the auction does make the sellers claim of it being a deck with only one owner seem more plausible.

I'm sure the condition played a role: I asked him about it, and he was pretty emphatic that it was in excellent condition, stored in a climate-controlled room when not in use, and only used about three times as a source for a projector until his company changed directions entirely. There were technically no returns, but after saying it was in excellent condition and fully/extensively tested without any playback problems, he mentioned ebay Buyer Protection and his intent to honor their policy about the item matching his description. He also stressed that he would be very careful with packaging, and that his company had experience shipping heavy/fragile/expensive items.

In short, you're right, and there's a reason I ended up bidding so high on it...and I guess it's the same reason I was outbid by two others with even less patience and sense than myself. Even after knowing its condition, I expected it to go for about $600...but someone else must have been more desperate than me. What really bothers me though is that the second-highest bidder offered $827.73 (higher than the original Buy It Now price of $800!): That means there's still someone else out there with deeper pockets than me who still hasn't gotten one, so I'm bound to lose the next auction too until he gets his and gets out of the way. Bah.

[robjv1]

Yeah, who knows? Just keep an eye on them. It's been awhile since the last one popped up on there and I notice they tend to go for less when there are a few of them listed around the same time. Although I suppose it is hard to identify patterns in these things when maybe 6-7 pop up a year on there. Looking through my old emails, it looks like there were 8 of them in 2011 and two SR-W7Us. Looks like three SR-W5Us so far this year. I should really save images from each and keep track of the serials to see if certain ones keep getting resold or not.

Just curious, what kind of tapes are you looking to use with this deck (i.e. VHS/SVHS, SP/LP/EP) and are there any issues common to them that you're hoping it will fix?

Also -- I'm not sure if this guy is still selling them or if he'd be willing to come down in his prices given he's had these listed since 2005 now, but maybe you could talk him down -- http://home.q03.itscom.net/nsa/JvcHR-W5.htm

[Mini-Me]

Yeah, who knows? Just keep an eye on them. It's been awhile since the last one popped up on there and I notice they tend to go for less when there are a few of them listed around the same time. Although I suppose it is hard to identify patterns in these things when maybe 6-7 pop up a year on there. Looking through my old emails, it looks like there were 8 of them in 2011 and two SR-W7Us. Looks like three SR-W5Us so far this year. I should really save images from each and keep track of the serials to see if certain ones keep getting resold or not.

Wow, that's actually a great idea! I wonder how many were dropped into the US with the Dish Network deal? I mean, if we're seeing the same recycled decks, could it be as low as a couple hundred?

Just curious, what kind of tapes are you looking to use with this deck (i.e. VHS/SVHS, SP/LP/EP) and are there any issues common to them that you're hoping it will fix?

Hahahaha...rant time.

I have about 100 precious VHS home movies, mostly from two different camcorders that my parents used to own. I think they're all in SP, but a few are longer than 2 hours (about 2 hours and 45 minutes), so those ones are either LP or use longer tape. I already captured them with my AG1980, but there are some problems.

First, I made some mistakes in my first go-around which "necessitate" redoing my captures:

• I didn't vet the sharpness setting strongly enough before using it for all my tapes, and I went way too high on it. Recently, I recognized that the softer image on more moderate setting contained just as much detail and far less haloing (which I demonstrated to myself by using a better software sharpener).
• Also, my AVT-8710 was so troublesome that I captured straight from the VCR to my AIW 9600, and I had no proc amp or TBC-like hardware to play with. The untamed high contrast would occasionally make my AIW's AGC go haywire and blow out for an extended period of time (which often added a nasty interference pattern)...sometimes for the rest of the capture. This ruined captures and forced me to babysit, take multiple captures, and piece them together in Avisynth manually or with slow scripts that detected blowouts frame-by-frame. Since my capture card's AGC is wild and erratic, the "ordinary" levels it returned to after recovering from an AGC blowout wouldn't be 100% consistent, which caused mild flickering between sections and frames that were patched together. That flickering is still present in my final captures, and while I can probably minimize it with software methods, it would be difficult to arrive at a totally effective and non-destructive algorithm for frequent flickering...and the varying levels of longer sections can only be fixed manually at this point. I've since learned that I can completely tame my capture card by using another intermediate device like a TBC, DVD recorder passthrough, or proc amp in the signal chain. The AVT-8710 works here as well, but I didn't realize it until I was done with my captures, because I hated it so much for other reasons that I didn't use it long enough.
• Even the "well-behaved" captures clipped, but the character of the overexposure was more consistent and different from the wild/erratic AGC blowouts. I assumed it was unrecoverable in analog, because the histogram spike at the white end still remained no matter how much I reduced the white point with my capture card's [seemingly analog] proc amp controls. My AVT-8710 can't really help here (it also clips), but my new passthrough DVD recorders and dedicated proc amp proved to me that this is avoidable! I also have a few insanely overexposed tapes that I thought were doomed to look absurdly blown out throughout ("they were just recorded in blown out lighting, I guess"), and I no longer believe that's the case.
• I have a few tapes from a family member's camera that didn't interact well with my AG1980's TBC: Every other even field or every other odd field would often become "torn" on the left, where the first 38-39 columns would literally be taken from a different field from the correct one. I solved this by taking multiple captures until I had at least one of each "parity" (even vs. odd fields with tearing), and then I used a slow Avisynth script to select the best frames based on the edge detection at the 38-39 column boundary. Oh, and of course, these captures would get blowouts too, so I'd have to take even more captures and select the best fields based on multiple criteria...which could sometimes cause crazy flickering from the patchwork quilt of fields.

I also have a problem specific to my AG1980, which makes me think I should use another VCR entirely for my second attempt:

You and I both have problems with vertical jitter, but my AG1980 has a tracking problem of sorts that makes it extremely frequent and irritating on some tapes (but still totally random and different every capture). The problem is also rapidly getting worse, and manual tracking helps, but it's very troublesome and hard to get right. I have it in the shop right now, but my local repair tech is having trouble isolating the issue, and he's not sure if he'll be able to fix it. (With the amount of time he said he's put into it, I'm praying he doesn't come back with an insane bill!)

I've mentioned that I have a script (actually, a script/plugin combo) in the works to fix this, but it's far more effective on videos without timestamps, and it still needs work for especially volatile videos (sadly I don't have tons of time for it ATM). Stabilizing equally volatile videos with visible timestamps is another story entirely, because the timestamp needs to be targeted as an anchor, and it can sometimes be at odds with the optimal placement of the rest of the field relative to its neighbors. I've learned that it's difficult to reliably target timestamps even with a narrow spatial window, thresholding, edge-detection, etc. It may require a different algorithm entirely, and none I've tried have been especially effective yet. As it stands, over half of my videos have timestamps, lol. White timestamps with black outlines (like in my VHS-C tapes) are probably much easier to target, but my timestamped regular VHS tapes simply have white timestamps with no outline, so they can be drowned out by background objects of equivalent brightness. This requires selectively switching algorithms when I can't get a lock, which increases script complexity, and...well, I'd rather get the best capture I can from the start and more easily correct the remaining errors, than carelessly take an extremely jittery capture and pray that I'll someday have perfect correction.

By this point I've already taken between 2 and 10 captures of most of my VHS tapes (usually 2-3, but there are exceptions). My new proc amp and passthrough TBC will solve almost all of the problems I had last time, but with all the time and money I've already invested into obtaining quality, I want to go all out on my second attempt...because I doubt I'll have the time or patience for a third run! Long story short, I need something with stable tracking that I don't have to babysit as much, and I want it to have good sound quality and great underlying image quality that's totally recoverable in software. I don't need a VCR that eradicates noise, but I DO need a VCR that captures every last bit of detail on the tape and avoids excessive sharpening (I can do that in software after denoising).

I've also become obsessive about detail ever since I found the original camcorder for my VHS-C tapes (I have about 40 of those, aside from my 100 VHS tapes that I need to redo). That camcorder manages to extract significantly more horizontal detail than my AG1980 even in still scenes, and it's especially apparent that it can pick up more and thinner vertical lines in hair and fabric patterns. I think it does sharpen internally, because it has some light halos that aren't present on the AG1980, but it has fewer dark halos, and most of both types are nowhere near as strong, focused, or annoying. (I think DeHalo_alpha and the BlindDeHalo series are far better suited to cartoons than live action, but I have some ideas for fixing halos without blurring someday. I just again have no time to work on this script either, haha.)

Despite the extra detail and moderate halos, my VHS-C camcorder has a softer picture than the AG1980. It also has less grain, which is kind of funny considering all of the chroma noise it leaves in. I'm also confident that whatever noise the camcorder shows is actually on the tape rather than newly introduced, because it's almost exactly the same in every single capture. Meanwhile, I've learned to recognize the temporal smearing, noise scrambling, etc. artifacts of the AG1980's DNR, and I'm not a huge fan.

Now, I'm basically using my VHS-C tapes as a "detail test" for VCR's: If a VCR can output as much detail for those as the original camcorder, I feel that I can trust it to pull just as much detail from my full-sized VHS tapes. I'd look for the original camcorders for those, but I don't even know what brands they were, let alone which models. I know the older one was one of those multi-part contraptions (camera separate from recorder), and I know the newer one was bought in 1992, and I know vaguely what it looked like...enough to rule out many models, but not enough to know for sure if I saw it. My jumbled memory also confuses things: The Hitachi VM-2400A looks extremely familiar (along with a few similar models), but I think that might have been one of my uncle's.

I picked up an AG2560 from ruehl84, and I understand why he wanted to sell it (he was totally forthcoming up front): He said the picture was "too soft" for him. I would actually say it's less soft than "fuzzy." It has no halos (without the extra sharpening turned on), but it's not "soft" exactly, because it adds a layer of high-frequency noise that makes edges look coarse and rough (they aren't time-base errors either, and the AG1980 does something similar). The VCR's detail resolution isn't the best, and the noise layer pushes some of the subtle stuff under the threshold of recoverability. It's impossible to recover with software sharpening from a single capture, though it might become remotely possible in a theoretical sense if I painstakingly took a whole bunch of captures and denoised with a median of captures. I've done that in the past, but I'd like to get past the babysitting. The CVC button (artificial sharpness) helps push some of the detail above the noise level (perhaps it occurs prior to the additional noise?), but it's just not enough: At best I can get detail somewhat comparable to the AG1980, and maybe a little bit better in motion due to the AG1980's DNR. It would be acceptable if I didn't know how much more was on the tapes, but...now that I've seen what my original VHS-C camcorder can get out of those tapes, I'm on a quest to find something just as good for my VHS tapes.

I haven't tried my worst tapes with my AG2560 yet (because at least one gets worse every time and seems to have limited plays left), but I'm going to keep it for now: It seems to have great tracking, so if worse comes to worse, I can capture once with the AG2560 and once with a better-resolving but less stable VCR, and I can use one as a field height reference for the other in an Avisynth script.

I could keep trying VCR after VCR, but it's not like I'm starting from a fuzzy JVC S-VHS machine either, so I'm not sure how many VCR's out there actually have the horizontal bandwidth to pull the detail I'm seeking. I think what I'm really looking for is the W5U: If it can't resolve the detail I want from my VHS tapes (based on its results from my VHS-C tapes), then at least I'll know that nothing short of the original camcorders could do it. I also love its color presentation, avoidance of strong halos, and light denoising, based on the images you've shown...and it doesn't hurt that you say it helps reduce vertical jitter and has great Hi-Fi tracking. I haven't even thought to critique my audio yet.

The W5U is extremely expensive, and it can be a crapshoot because of its shipping damage frequency and the nigh-impossibility of repairing it. It's not for everyone, but I'm a perfectionist, and I've already tried another road, and the money may save me enough further time and headache to be worth it.

Thus concludes my life story.

Also -- I'm not sure if this guy is still selling them or if he'd be willing to come down in his prices given he's had these listed since 2005 now, but maybe you could talk him down -- http://home.q03.itscom.net/nsa/JvcHR-W5.htm

Yeah, I saw that site! It seems like he has removed his email address from it, but I just decided to try contacting him via ebay. Kenneth M recommended him, but he said he takes a very long time to respond to any inquiries, so we'll see how that goes.

Of course, the people at http://broadcaststore.com/ are completely out of their minds with their pricing, and that statement isn't limited only to the W5U and W7U. I suppose they sell to broadcast companies and hospitals though, who don't have time to wait for an auction. The order to buy equipment (and budget) likely comes down from upper management with tight timelines, a need for reliability within those timelines, and less concern for getting a reasonable deal (or ability to spot one)...and since they're capital goods for them, the economics may even favor the high premium they're willing to pay for their time preference.

[orsetto]

Helping to confirm Orsetto's idea that all of these decks likely originated from the same fire sale -- the serial # on the deck for sale is 15310029 and the one I have in my video rack right now is 15310085. Something else I bet Orsetto could shed some light on that pops to mind after looking at pictures of the latest SR-W5U auction -- I notice that almost every single one of these decks has the same little orange sticker on them. If you can get a good look at it, they all read "City of Los Angeles, Approved for Electrical Safety - Department of Building and Safety" and they have a number on them that usually reads DF14####." Any reason why they all would have passed through California and had to be certified in this manner?

I think they were all imported in a single "Hail Mary" pass that JVC tried to tie in with DiSH. Remember these were not actually designed or certified for use outside the Japanese home market, meaning they were likely retrofitted or adjusted in some way to pass USA inspection. AFAIK, all of the imported WVHS units came in via Los Angeles: probably all were inspected and slapped with the sticker while sitting in port. I have had some dealings with the LA ports, there is a LOT of red tape involved before you can drag your containers out of there.

[orsetto]

I picked up an AG2560 from ruehl84, and I understand why he wanted to sell it (he was totally forthcoming up front): He said the picture was "too soft" for him. I would actually say it's less soft than "fuzzy." It has no halos (without the extra sharpening turned on), but it's not "soft" exactly, because it adds a layer of high-frequency noise that makes edges look coarse and rough (they aren't time-base errors either, and the AG1980 does something similar). The VCR's detail resolution isn't the best, and the noise layer pushes some of the subtle stuff under the threshold of recoverability. [...] The CVC button (artificial sharpness) helps push some of the detail above the noise level (perhaps it occurs prior to the additional noise?), but it's just not enough: At best I can get detail somewhat comparable to the AG1980, and maybe a little bit better in motion due to the AG1980's DNR. It would be acceptable if I didn't know how much more was on the tapes, but...now that I've seen what my original VHS-C camcorder can get out of those tapes, I'm on a quest to find something just as good for my VHS tapes.

I haven't tried my worst tapes with my AG2560 yet (because at least one gets worse every time and seems to have limited plays left), but I'm going to keep it for now: It seems to have great tracking, so if worse comes to worse, I can capture once with the AG2560 and once with a better-resolving but less stable VCR, and I can use one as a field height reference for the other in an Avisynth script.

I have snapped up every AG2560 I can lay hands on for under $50, I think I have eight at the moment. I feel it is the single safest bet for the "average" buyer among second-hand standard-VHS VCRs, and recommend it highly especially to those (like myself) using a VCR>DVD/HDD recorder workflow. Combined with a well-matched DVD recorder, the "flaws" of the AG2560 are not glaring and its virtues (rock-solid hifi tracking, reliable loading/transport system) come to the fore. Its default "sharpness" or overall PQ is about as good as you'll find short of the very top SVHS/DVHS/WVHS models, and performance is consistent unit to unit (with none of the annoying sample variation common to the "big boys").

Not looking to dispute anyone here, just want to give an alternate POV on the AG2560, a little gem of a VCR easily found under $40 in perfect functional condition. It tracks nearly as well as an AG1980, PQ comes remarkably close considering the lack of TBC/DNR, it has none of the "dying caps" problems endemic to the 1980, and the lack of DNR means no creepy temporal distortion like you get with a 1980. Depending on your tapes and workflow, less can be more: the AG2560 is an austere but very useful deck for non-SVHS tapes. At some point, we begin to split hairs with these VCRs: if your hardware chain includes pass-thrus, external processors, and PC capture you will certainly be picking nits with most any VCR (often finding yourself stuck in a "Sophies Choice" decision loop). Those who are willing or able to settle for a little less performance in exchange for repeatability and simplicity will find the AG2560 an excellent starter VCR, or supplement to a high-end SVHS/DVHS/WVHS. After discovering the AG2560, I dumped most of my AG1980 and AG5710 decks: when I need TBC/DNR, I turn to my Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U DVHS vcrs (much less unpredictable than the 1980 or old JVCs).

After 30 years and countless vcrs, I'm done coping with fussy high-end VHS decks: every incremental improvement entails a tradeoff. Deciding which tradeoff is best for each tape gets exhausting when I have thousands of tapes to dub. Would I prefer to have lossless AVI captures from a flawlessly-tuned WVHS deck? Absolutely, no question. But I have no patience for the work involved, and most of my tapes frankly don't merit the effort: an AG2560 patched thru the excellent 12-bit MPEG2 encoder of a Pioneer DVR-560 is more than sufficient. Perhaps if I had as many priceless camcorder videos as other people, I'd be a little more critical about the end result.

[Mini-Me]

Don't worry, I wasn't trying to contradict you either. I bought the AG2560 on your advice, and I can't think of anyone else who I'd rather pay attention to on this subject. I'm just throwing my experiences into the mix. It's worth reiterating that I'm comparing these VCR's to the original camcorder for my VHS-C tapes, so it's not really a "fair fight" in the first place. I'm just a perfectionist, as anyone reading my posts can see. (Case in point: I seriously just captured the same tape 9 times and did some crazy median work with it on a slow, slow computer...just to patch up a few screwed up frames. Thankfully, it worked. ) Still, I thought my observations might be helpful for comparing it to other units (like the AG1980) and justifying my search for a W5U.

Anyway, do you notice that the AG2560's audio is somewhat noisier (a bit of a muffled hum) next to the AG1980's? My AG1980 is still in the shop, but I was listening to a capture from each (of the same tape), and the AG1980 came away noticeably cleaner. However, I can't be 100% sure it's the AG2560's fault, since I may have routed its audio through my DVDR3475 when I used it as a TBC...so it's possible the extra noise came from that. (My capture computer is working right now, so I can't take another one without the passthrough to check at the moment.) It's also possible that the AG1980 is just filtering audio noise too, and my ears are definitely not learned enough to tell the difference between "cleaner to start with" and "denoised, possibly destructively enough that others would hear artifacts."

Also, I noticed something a little strange about the head noise on my AG2560: I think it may be a line or so thinner than on most VCR's, but it occurs a few lines higher than usual, and the last three or four lines or so (usually 100% head noise) actually show a clear image. I've seen a thread about this behavior somewhere (either here or doom9), but I can't remember what VCR the poster was using. Is this common to AG2560's or peculiar to my unit? I'm halfway tempted to take advantage of this by combining captures from VCR's with head noise in different places, but there's still some overlap, so I'd probably have to black out the bottom part anyway.

[orsetto]

If I'm listening critically, MiniMe, I can hear various forms of audio noise playing the same tape on any VCR I own (AG2560, AG1980, AG5710, AG1970, various Quasars and consumer Panasonics, Mitsubishi DVHS and reg VHS, JVCs, etc). Assuming a stable tape within normal tracking range, the differences between these VCRs are subtle and not always repeatable. All the AGs (except the 2560) are prone to ground loop hum problems unless I break ground using 3-prong>2-prong plug adapters. I've never really thought any of these machines was particularly "clean" in audio presentation, while the video differences are more obvious. To my ears, VHS HiFi was always a poorly-engineered kludge: Beta HiFi sounds WAY better and more consistent, with practically zero interference or noise from tracking issues. VHS HiFi inevitably glitches out, even with the best tapes and VCRs. The reports posted by robjv1 regarding the remarkably clean audio he gets from the JVC WVHS make me really envious. Oddly enough, the least noisy VHS hifi playback I've had is from a JVC DR-MV5 combo VHS/DVD recorder: no hum, very "black" during silent or quiet passages, very little tracking-related "flanging" or other noises. Unfortunately a model plagued with reliability problems.

I haven't been able to reproduce the extraneous video lines you have reported with several different VCRs, so can't offer any insight into the variation you see between AG2560 and AG1980. My current VCR>DVD/HDD workflow seems to conceal most of the head switching area. The older WinXP box that I had configured for video capture finally died on me a few weeks ago and I haven't replaced it yet, so I have no device handy that shows the overscan area fed from a VCR. (No video inputs on my Win7 i5 laptops or old Mac Mini).

[Mini-Me]

I agree that I've never exactly heard "clean" VHS audio...just VCR's on a sliding scale of noisiness and noise type.

I found out something interesting: As noted, my VHS-C camcorder (a Panasonic PV-L550D) plays back the tapes it made with great tracking and detail and leaves my VCR's in the dust. My AG2560 and AG1980 just can't compete. I managed to get ahold of a very similar model from a relative, the PV-L650D, and...it plays them back almost identically (just as much detail), except it has a little more noise, and sharp edges aren't quite as clean if I look closely (they're a bit noisier and "coarser"). Moral of the story: Some tapes work best on the original camcorder, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the same exact one. Another unit of the same model should perform just as admirably (as long as the original camcorder wasn't unusually misaligned when it recorded, I guess?), and even a similar model may do.

After realizing that, I did some detective work and ended up determining that one of my original VHS camcorders was indeed a Hitachi VM-2400A (or a very similar model). I managed to snag one, and it plays those tapes back with noticeably better detail than my AG2560, which is most apparent in hair texture, wood patterns in doors, etc...but as always, it just HAD to have a fatal flaw: Its internal circuits clip the white level too low, whereas my AG2560 handles bright and overexposed sections far more gracefully. Go figure! (Interesting note: The VM-2400A plays back with the head switching noise placed the same way as the AG2560. This may be more common that I previously thought!)

Here's the kicker though: The original camcorder is not always the best in terms of picture definition! With these particular VHS tapes, my original AG1980 captures completely DOMINATE both the AG2560 and even the original camcorder model (Hitachi VM-2400A) in terms of stationary detail! The story is a bit different in motion though, because the DNR royally screws with the image. I also don't like the color reproduction nearly as much (nonlinear color drainage aside from the DNR's desaturation of moving objects), but the TBC and sharpening settings affect that too. The irony here is that my original captures had horrible clipping - even worse than the Hitachi VM-2400A - but I made them before I had a proc amp, so it's possible the clipping occurred after the signal left the VCR.

BAH. So, my AG2560 has great levels handling but poor detail for these particular tapes. A carbon copy of the original VHS camcorder (Hitachi VM-2400A) clips whites and has decent but unexceptional detail. My AG1980 has excellent stationary detail but a plethora of other problems.

Gimme the überdeck and some hard liquor, please.

[Brad]

@sanlyn:

This a random bump, but I figured it would be better to ask in a dead thread discussing VCR picture quality rather than derail dianedebuda's thread with my own query about a machine that sanlyn has mentioned a few times.

SONY SLV-585HF

I picked up one of these from the thrift store hoping it would perform similarly to my SLV-750HF that died. SP recordings look just fine, but EP tapes look horribly overprocessed. Edges of objects appear serrated; I believe you have referred to this effect as "mice teeth" when talking about other VCRs with the problem.

Lowering the sharpness control to minimum doesn't help, and turning on EDIT mode seems to output the same picture as setting sharpness to middle.

Here's a comparison between the SLV-585HF (sharpness min) and yet another Sony, the SLV-779HF from 1999 (don't remember the settings).




How does yours fare with EP recordings made on other machines? (The images are from a budget retail release.)

[sanlyn]

I use my old '585' to transfer tapes that were originally recorded on it. The tapes I work with were recorded at SP. The 6-hour tapes fare better on old Pansonics, although I don't recall mice teeth on any of the SONY originals. Yes, 6-hour SONY tapes do look over processed regardless how I play them.

The later SONYs like your '750': After the old 585/595 series, SONY seems to have gone downhill so I never used one. Those two SONYs lasted 9 years, recording TV shows almost every day if you can believe it. Most of them were watched and discarded. What I transfer now with the 585 are just a couple of TV movies at SP, but mostly TV documentaries such as two days of the 50th anniversary of D-Day or 50 years after Pearl Harbor, etc. The VCRs I used after the 585/595 period were early JVC's and Panasonics. That 1992 JVC was a darn nice machine, but like an idiot I let go of it when I married and moved (the wife wasn't too keen on keeping 7 VCRs!). Like the later SONYs, the later JVC's didn't impress me that much. So those two SONYs were work horses. I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did. My 585 was rebuilt by somebody in Florida some years back from cannibalized and new parts. The 595 couldn't be fixed; the 585 was a better machine anyway.

The last recording I made on the 585 was the first two hours of 9/11 from CNN cable. I saved the tapes, then captured them for DVD and kept the captures on some DVD discs. And somehow they were lost. I have to grit my teeth every time I think about it. Somewhere in my father in law's attic there's a Hush Puppies shoe box . . . .

[Brad]

Ah, okay. Thanks for all the info.