PAL frame rate question

[ArtOfLosingMFZB]

Hey everybody. I'm familiar with the NTSC and PAL conversion rates and that film is often sped up for PAL TV/DVD release. Though I'm curious about what frame rate PAL television shows are originally filmed in. I know that UK films are filmed in 23.976 fps because that is just the rate of film. But what about UK television shows? Does it depend on what the show was filmed on? If it's filmed on video, than the native frame rate would probably be 25fps, correct?

For example, what is the native frame rate for shows like The Inbetweeners and Skins? Are they shot on film and then sped up for UK television and DVD release?

This may seem like an odd question, and I'm having trouble putting it into words, but I've always been curious about it.

[manono]

All movies (as in, created to play in movie theaters) are 24fps (not 23.976fps). For PAL country TV shows, they can be shot in 25fps, either progressive or interlaced. I know nothing about the TV shows to which you referred.

[Cornucopia]

Films/programs that are "filmed" (maybe a better term here is "recorded") on film (analog or digital) are almost universally done at 24FPS (there are a few exceptions, incl. Showscan, Todd-AO , silents, SloMos). This is regardless of whether it's for cinema or TV.

Going to PAL is a 4% speedup (both audio & video) with no interpolation/blending/repetition/judder, to 25FPS (could be 25p or 50i - actually 25PsF).

Going to NTSC is a 2:3 (aka 3:2) pulldown frame repetition. Yes, including judder, but no speedup. Still no blending or interpolation, though (if done correctly). Conversion to 30 / 29.97FPS (could be 30p/29.97p or 60i/59.94i - actually PsF).

Programs that are recorded on video (digital or analog) are done in 50i or 50p in PAL countries (a few exceptions here too), and done in 59.94i or 59.94p in NTSC countries.

So to summarize - yes, it depends on what it is recorded. Don't know about those 2 particular shows, but an Internet search can probably provide an answer. Do they "look" like they're shot on video?

Scott

[edDV]

Hey everybody. I'm familiar with the NTSC and PAL conversion rates and that film is often sped up for PAL TV/DVD release. Though I'm curious about what frame rate PAL television shows are originally filmed in. I know that UK films are filmed in 23.976 fps because that is just the rate of film. But what about UK television shows? Does it depend on what the show was filmed on? If it's filmed on video, than the native frame rate would probably be 25fps, correct?

For example, what is the native frame rate for shows like The Inbetweeners and Skins? Are they shot on film and then sped up for UK television and DVD release?

The BBC was famous for doing most dramas and comedies with video cameras indoors but with 16mm film (24 fps sped 4% to 25) outdoors. This was true from the 1960's to the early 1990's. Since then it has been a combination of 16mm, 35mm and recently HD video cameras.

The two series you mentioned were shot 1.78 to 1 film negative according to IMDB.

Most Hollywood series intended for export are shot on 35mm film but some series like "Scrubs" used Super 16mm even for HD release. HD video @24p is the new trend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_mm_film
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VideoInsideFilmOutside

[T_Jet]

According to this Skins was shot in digital http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skins_%28TV_series%29

The series was shot entirely in High Definition, using Sony HDW-750P cameras for the first two series, and Sony HDW-F900R thereafter, both supplied by Panavision.

Edited to add this link

http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/lang/en/gb/content/id/1237382096183

[chowmein]

For example, what is the native frame rate for shows like The Inbetweeners and Skins? Are they shot on film and then sped up for UK television and DVD release?

Is film still used in the world today?

[edDV]

For example, what is the native frame rate for shows like The Inbetweeners and Skins? Are they shot on film and then sped up for UK television and DVD release?

Is film still used in the world today?

HD video is being used more each year for TV series but film is still widely used. Both are mostly edited as digital intermediates.

[ArtOfLosingMFZB]

Thanks everyone for the help, I appreciate it.

How about this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1716772/technical

Those are the technical specs for The Inbetweeners Movie according to IMDB. So what does that mean? Was it shot on film? The DVD and Blu-Ray releases were all in 25 fps. I figured that PAL Blu-Ray releases would be 24 fps if that were the native frame rate. Am I wrong?

[poisondeathray]

How about this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1716772/technical

Those are the technical specs for The Inbetweeners Movie according to IMDB. So what does that mean? Was it shot on film? The DVD and Blu-Ray releases were all in 25 fps. I figured that PAL Blu-Ray releases would be 24 fps if that were the native frame rate. Am I wrong?

No, Arri Alexa is a digital cinema camera . You can choose to shoot a different native rate . So if this was a UK production, they might have shot 25 FPS

It's heralded as one of the premiere digital cameras , because of wide latitude range, matching that of film . Many think it is THE camera that drove the final stake in the celluloid/film coffin

[edDV]

Thanks everyone for the help, I appreciate it.

How about this: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1716772/technical

Those are the technical specs for The Inbetweeners Movie according to IMDB. So what does that mean? Was it shot on film? The DVD and Blu-Ray releases were all in 25 fps. I figured that PAL Blu-Ray releases would be 24 fps if that were the native frame rate. Am I wrong?

Since The Inbetweeners is a recent production, it could take advantage of Euro digital 25 fps acquisition which is now allowed for D-Cinema as well as broadcast and Blu-Ray. 25fps is part of the new SMPTE standard "Additional Frame Rates for D-Cinema" described here.
http://www.imago.org/index.php?new=76

It is now possible to shoot and edit digital 25p and publish for broadcast, D-Cinema or Blu-Ray. Also 50p is supported for 3D (25p for each eye).

The Arri Alexa can substitute for classic Arri or Panavision film cameras using the same lenses and support gear. The Alexa supports all the new SMPTE frame rates.



Arri hype reel. It even works upside down for lefties! Take that Red
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVY8SOQVKTQ&feature=related

[ArtOfLosingMFZB]

Thanks for the info, everyone! Just to update this thing, I was able to confirm that the Inbetweeners TV show was, indeed, shot at 25fps, meaning that the DVDs aren't sped up at all. However, The Inbetweeners Movie was shot at 23.976fps, meaning that the DVDs and Blu-Rays have been sped up to 25fps.

I figured this out simply by comparing music that was used in the show and movie side-by-side with it's CD waveform. The TV show was at the same speed, while the movie was sped up by four percent.

[edDV]

Thanks for the info, everyone! Just to update this thing, I was able to confirm that the Inbetweeners TV show was, indeed, shot at 25fps, meaning that the DVDs aren't sped up at all. However, The Inbetweeners Movie was shot at 23.976fps, meaning that the DVDs and Blu-Rays have been sped up to 25fps.

I figured this out simply by comparing music that was used in the show and movie side-by-side with it's CD waveform. The TV show was at the same speed, while the movie was sped up by four percent.

25p is optimal for European broadcast.

23.976p is optimal for world cinema/television release. That is why "Hollywood" shoots 23.976.

The newest generation Digital Cinema theaters can project either standard.

[intracube]

This video shows the cameras used on the Inbetweeners:

23.976p is optimal for world cinema/television release. That is why "Hollywood" shoots 23.976.

I always assumed film destined for the big screen would be shot 24p and only converted to non-integer frame rates during telecine.

What's the rationale for shooting 23.976p instead of 24p? Is it so productions can use standard NTSC monitors/recording equipment for video assist/video village? Actually, that doesn't make sense as standard equipment would be 59.94i. Or maybe it does. 23.976 is a simpler relation ship to 59.94i...

[edDV]

23.976p is optimal for world cinema/television release. That is why "Hollywood" shoots 23.976.

I always assumed film destined for the big screen would be shot 24p and only converted to non-integer frame rates during telecine.

What's the rationale for shooting 23.976p instead of 24p? Is it so productions can use standard NTSC monitors/recording equipment for video assist/video village? Actually, that doesn't make sense as standard equipment would be 59.94i. Or maybe it does. 23.976 is a simpler relation ship to 59.94i...

They will use the best workflow that meets their budget.

I'll answer quick but will research more if you want.

24 fps is classic film production (TV must adapt)

23.976 is direct to "NTSC" TV market but also works for "PAL" speedup conversion. Conversion for Cinema film print release has minimal speed error. Main issue is audio sync. It all comes down to audio sync.

It is rare that TV series get converted to film for classic theater projection.

[intracube]

What's the rationale for shooting 23.976p instead of 24p? Is it so productions can use standard NTSC monitors/recording equipment for video assist/video village? Actually, that doesn't make sense as standard equipment would be 59.94i. Or maybe it does. 23.976 is a simpler relation ship to 59.94i...

They will use the best workflow that meets their budget.

I'll answer quick but will research more if you want.

No need to go to the trouble.

I'm sure I've seen glimpses of monitors on sets displaying 23.976 but I can't remember what film/TV show it was from. Might have been the West Wing - which would make sense.

[edDV]

Little to do with local monitors.