Question about capturing Doctor Who VHS tapes

[fatcharlie]

Sometime in the future I plan on watching the Doctor Who series from the beginning. Most of the 100+ series are available on DVD, however about 20% of them are on VHS only. If I try to capture these and convert to digital format, will I have to worry about dropping frames and A/V sync issues as much as with home recorded VHS tapes? I don't have a plan yet as to what method I will use. Currently I only have a Sony RDR-VX500 DVD/VHS combo. I'm not real confident in using that as it has been in our second bedroom which has two cat litter boxes and that room suffers from cat litter dust issues. So I may have to buy a new VCR, even if I decide not to capture them, and only watch them on VHS.

I have read so much here about capturing VHS and it seems that many different methods yield good results, so I'm unsure what would be best for me. I'm hoping that I can get away with just a VCR and a capture card. I would like to avoid buying an external TBC device because they seem quite expensive.

[lordsmurf]

I would like to avoid buying an external TBC device because they seem quite expensive.

Then give up on the transfer project. It's almost always unavoidable.

[Bjs]

TBC is only required where the tapes are no longer in premium state.

You might want to fill in some computer details so the type of capture device can be narrowed down for the project.

[oldfart13]

Prerecords are almost always copy protected. I'd just watch them on the original tapes anyway. Not going to get them to look like the DVD prerecords so why bother? I'm a big Who fan too (doing several projects for online sites right now) but even I have no interest in transferring over old tapes other than for some special moments, pledge breaks, etc. Just not worth the bother...

[lordsmurf]

TBC is only required where the tapes are no longer in premium state.

It's VHS. There is no "premium state". The signal is inherently flawed.
A TBC isn't an optional device if you want a stable and quality capture.

[jagabo]

alt.binaries.drwho

[hech54]

A TBC isn't an optional device if you want a stable and quality capture.

WRONG. It is VERY optional since this is NOT your project. More people (like me) have never needed or used an inline TBC than have used one.....now that is plain fact.

[lordsmurf]

I like you too much to argue, so I'll simply agree to disagree.


All I'll say in response is this...
If I could have avoided owning a stack of TBCs, trust that I would have done so.

[fatcharlie]

@bjs - My PC is just a standard Compaq Presario with windows 7 (64-bit), probably 2GB RAM, and an AMD Sempron processor, pretty average, or even below average PC.

@lordsmurf - Is the AVT-8710 a reliable product? Looking at some of the reviews at B & H, it seems like it "could" be a crapshoot whether or not you get a good unit. I'd be willing to spend the money on one if it's reliable.

@oldfart13 - I really don't mind that this could be a huge task. I love projects like this.

[jman98]

Prerecords are almost always copy protected.

Defeating Macrovision is another reason why a TBC may be required.

Everyone seems to be ignoring oldfart13's comment.

[jagabo]

And for quality caps you should start with a S-VHS deck with a line TBC.

[fatcharlie]

Will an external TBC remove the Macrovision protection? That is something I didn't think about.

[jagabo]

Will an external TBC remove the Macrovision protection?

Yes. You can also use a "clarifier" to strip away macrovision:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/189455-How-to-address-anti-copy-%28Macrovision%29-errors

[fatcharlie]

Thanks Jagabo.

[jbd5010]

I think something we all need to consider here is what the desired end-result is.

Lordsmurf is a video transfer professional. Very high standards.

hech54... I don't know anything about you, but I'm guessing you're satisfied with results that Lordsmurf wouldn't find acceptable (just a guess).

The point is, everyone's standard of an acceptable transfer is different. On this forum, I would classify most of us (myself included) as either Videophile or at least VERY picky about video quality. Do you fall into this category? If you just want "watchable" copies of these shows (they may eventually come out on DVD anyway), then you have to decide what your definition of "watchable" is. If you're satisfied watching them on your Sony DVD/VCR combo unit, then your standard of "watchable" is probably far below everyone else in this thread (especially Lordsmurf's, haha).

My suggestion: try a basic transfer with your combo unit into any old capture card or low-end USB dongle from Sparkle or Grabby. Spend as little on the capture device as possible, that way if you hate the results (like most of us would) you can probably turn around and re-sell it to recoup your costs and try something else. However, if you find the results acceptable, then you're only out $20-$30 in equipment and you're done!

Otherwise, consider your budget and go from there. Some solutions I would suggest if the above one isn't satisfactory:

Basic: DataVideo TBC-1000 or AVT-8710 (~$200) and JVC SR-V10U (~$75) + Happuage PVR-250 (~$50) this should provide pretty solid results for about $350, and you could easily resell everything when you're done because all components are in high demand.


Advanced: Either TBC above + SignVideo PA-100 Proc Amp (~$150) + SignVideo DR-1000 Detailer/Enhancer (~$150) + SR-V10U (~$100) - This should get you fantastic results with lots of room to tailor the output to your liking but will run you around $600 - $700 and might not be worth it to you. Again, though, all equipment is popular and would be easily re-sold.

Those prices are based on rough estimates of what I've seen on eBay lately including shipping. Of course, you need to be patient and attentive to get good deals, people frequently pay double what I listed for some of the devices. Keep an eye on Craigslist, and stay local/request a chance to test it if you want to avoid risk. I recently got a TBC-1000 and PA-100 that are in fantastic shape, $218 for both shipped, but from Texas craigslist so my risk was pretty big. I got lucky. If you want, you can search every local Craigslist site at once using allofcraigs.com

Another option you may consider instead of a capture card is getting a DVD recorder, since it sounds like your computer is aging a bit. These shows aren't like home movies---you'll capture a whole episode and move on, no editing or cutting out of bad/lame footage. Good models also have great filtering built-in, and while those filters won't perform as well as external boxes, they may be good enough for your tastes.

Look at DigitalFAQ's DVD recorder reviews for recommended DVD Recorder models - http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-recorders.htm

[lordsmurf]

I already wrote up a pretty lengthy analysis on TBCs.
Read it here: What is a TBC? Time Base Correction for Videotapes.

A decent portion of my work is fixing what somebody else has screwed up.
Lack of TBC accounts for much of it.

The AVT-8710 is what I suggest for the external units, yes. As suggested, buy it for $215 shipped new, resell it later at a loss of no more than $50. These things have great resell value -- $150-175 shipped most of the time. They're small and light, so shipping is about $10 worth.

Tapes are worn/damaged every time they are played. If the content is important, transfer it.

[fatcharlie]

Nice post jbd. With your category descriptions, I'm definitely going to fall into the basic. I'm going to try to get a JVC or Panasonic VHS player from Ebay, and an AVT-8710, along with some sort of capture card (the only part not yet figured out). I would say I'm quite picky about video quality, but at the same time I have to keep in mind that this is more than likely a one time project, so I don't want to go overboard with buying equipment, like in the advanced category. But then again I haven't really researched any prices other than the VCR and TBC. As long as it doesn't cut too much into the Vegas trip budget, I'll be happy, lol.

[jbd5010]

As long as it doesn't cut too much into the Vegas trip budget, I'll be happy, lol.

If you hit it big out in Vegas, you might as well buy yourself (and me!) one of these:
http://www.snellgroup.com/products/conversion-and-restoration/restoration/archangel-ph.c

[TBoneit]

Prerecords are almost always copy protected.

Defeating Macrovision is another reason why a TBC may be required.

Everyone seems to be ignoring oldfart13's comment.

I did notice that a TBC did a good job of fixing macrovision defects

[hech54]

Isn't Dr. Who a U.K. based - PAL format series or show?

[jbd5010]

Isn't Dr. Who a U.K. based - PAL format series or show?

If that's the case you'll a Colour Corrector instead of a Color Corrector

[fatcharlie]

Everything I've found has been NTSC, both DVDs and VHS.

JBD, considering there is no price listed on that item, I imagine it's quite expensive. I usually don't win much at all in Vegas, so don't hold your breath, lol.

[jbd5010]

Haha, yeahhh.... that's something NBC or the Discovery Channel would buy. It wouldn't surprise me if it was like $50,000 or even $100,000.

[lordsmurf]

I'd be a surprised if it was that costly.
If I had to guess, it's probably about the price of a family sedan.

I can buy Ikena for about $10k, and then there's Blackmagic Davinci.

NBC and Discovery Channel are just broadcasters.
BBC, maybe -- they do have a lot of their own in-house facilities.

Don't forget one technology was invented because of Doctor Who -- VidFIRE.

[Brad]

Since every episode of Doctor Who has been produced on PAL video (now HD video but still at 25 fps), your quality ceiling is going to be limited not only by VHS but also by the conversion tech available at the time the VHS transfers were made.

[jagabo]

Since every episode of Doctor Who has been produced on PAL video (now HD video but still at 25 fps), your quality ceiling is going to be limited not only by VHS but also by the conversion tech available at the time the VHS transfers were made.

Yes, there's probably a lot of field blending and interlaced resizing artifacts in the NTSC conversions. Using the original PAL video would give you better resolution and cleaner frames. If you have to use the NTSC tapes you should probably look into AviSynth and SRestore().

[fatcharlie]

Is the Hauppauge PVR-350 the same as the PVR-250? On the Hauppauge website, the descriptions seem similar, just worded differently.

Also, is there a MCE version and non-MCE version of the 250, or just MCE?

[jagabo]

The PVR-350 has video out (you can display your recordings on a TV via the card) as well as video in. If you are going to attempt any serious restoration you shouldn't use an MPEG capture device.

[fatcharlie]

I'm not sure how much restoration I'm planning on to be honest. I'm hoping to be able to just do a conversion. But, why wouldn't I want to use MPEG capture for restoration? What would I want to use?

[usually_quiet]

It isn't unusual for captured video to have some issue that needs correction, such as the color, or excessive noise. Fixing these problems is considered restoration.

Huffyuv and DV are considered to be better for restoration than MPEG-2. although many would still choose MPEG-2 for their end format after correcting and editing are completed. MPEG-2 uses more compression than the DV or Huffyuv codecs, and looses more quality when decompressed for processing and then re-compressed. Huffyuv is the least compressed of the three, and the least affectected by de-compression, processing, and recompression so it is favored by some video restorers for that reason, although it takes up a lot of room on a hard drive.