Import subtitles from a commercial DVD into Adobe Premiere Elements?

[haggis999]

Hi Manono,
I certainly have little or no knowledge about video technology or the myriad of obscure shareware programs exploited by video enthusiasts. However, I am very clear about my objectives. Having just re-read my opening post, I think that the only key requirement I omitted was that of maintaining the original video quality - something that may well exclude any re-encoding process (as you imply). Sincere apologies to Baldrick if this omission has led him to spend time on inappropriate solutions.

Your restated summary of my needs seems fine, though I should make the point that most of the original DVD content will NOT be used. The opera in question lasts for 2 hrs 45 mins. My edited highlights will last for only about 35 mins. If the simplest process is to start by re-muxing everything before selecting the required clips, that's fine. However, if it is almost as easy (and much faster) to only re-mux selected portions of the DVD then that would be even better.

My previous practice has been to select clips that are somewhat longer than necessary, with the intention of trimming them more precisely within APE3. Transitions between clips would also be handled by APE3.

[Baldrick]

Transitions would require reconverting. You could use mpeg video wizard because it will just reconvert between the transitions but it can't keep the switchable subtitle stream so you would have to resync it and add it back(it would be very time consuming if you do a lot of cuts).

[haggis999]

I guess I'm really wanting to limit any re-rendering of my video until the final stage when APE3 burns my DVD. From past experience, APE3 seems to do this without much visible degradation of this image, though I don't know if it's smart enough to render only the frames that require new subtitles or transitions.

The difficulties we have experienced in trying to retain the original subtitles have led me to find an alternative solution. I have managed to extract all the subtitles into a text document and I have found an APE3 add-on utility program that will automatically generate a series of titles from a text file. I still have to position these titles and set their duration manually, so it's not a perfect solution by any means, but at least I no longer have to retype the subtitles. I may have to use this method for my current project as my deadline is fast approaching, but I'd still like to see if a better method is possible.

[manono]

Yeah, if these edits are just cuts, then VobBlanker (and the commercial DVDRemakePro) can do that pretty easily, and keep the subs you've added, which will also be cut at the same time. If these edits also entail fade in/outs and/or dissolves and the like, then you're screwed as far as the subs go, and you'd be better off waiting until the edited DVD is ready before making the subs for inclusion afterwards. That's why I mentioned needing to know more about what you have in mind. Here's a guide to cutting using VobBlanker:

http://download.videohelp.com/jsoto/guides/VobBlanker/prevcut/index.php

But I can't tell if you're making just a few cuts or a whole bunch to get it down to 35 minutes. Here's Baldrick's guide to adding subs to a DVD. I would go with some variation of Method 2 if I were you:

https://forum.videohelp.com/topic338721.html

Again, I still don't know enough to be able to figure out if any of this is actually helpful to you.

[haggis999]

All that has to be done is to demux, add in the subs, remux and add it back into the original DVD ..... Even if you then wish to go on and edit the DVD in other ways, you'll at least be starting with a DVD of original quality with subs.

Is this what would be achieved if I followed your 'Method 2' link?

if these edits are just cuts, then VobBlanker (and the commercial DVDRemakePro) can do that pretty easily, and keep the subs you've added, which will also be cut at the same time. If these edits also entail fade in/outs and/or dissolves and the like, then you're screwed as far as the subs go, and you'd be better off waiting until the edited DVD is ready before making the subs for inclusion afterwards.

I don't quite understand the point you are making here. My clip selections have always been made by simple cuts in the video (done both outside and inside APE3) and I have never had any problem in subsequently setting up dissolve transitions between such clips in APE3. Why would the inclusion of subtitles have any effect on this?

[manono]

Hi-

Is this what would be achieved if I followed your 'Method 2' link?

Yes, but I don't believe you've told us how you're creating the subs, which is why I mentioned using some variation of Method 2. I use a variation of it as well because I create and/or edit subs completely differently.

I don't quite understand the point you are making here.

Didn't you say originally, My only problem was the need to recreate the original subtitles from scratch.? My point is that by using VobBlanker for the cutting (or DVDRemakePro, if you have it), you don't have to recreate the subs at all. If just simply cutting, the original subs will get cut at the same time. If doing the editing in Elements or VideoReDo or whatever - anything requiring at least a partial reencode - you'll have to recreate the subs. I was just trying to save you many hours of very tedious work. But that's OK, if you already have a system that works (?), then forget I ever said anything. Good luck.

[haggis999]

I am not yet committed to my alternative process as it would still require quite a lot of manual effort. I would still prefer to find a way to automatically preserve or reinsert the original subtitles in all the correct places. In other words, I don't want to 'create' the subs at all, I just want to use what is there in the original DVD.

Please forgive me if I'm being a little slow to understand all this. I am extremely interested in your suggestion that it is possible to preserve the original subs without degrading the video quality, though I am still unclear why subsequent editing in APE3 would invalidate that process.

However, we may be in danger of trying to discuss far too many things at once. The most basic thing I do not understand:
Is it possible to generate an AVI file containing a single short clip from the original DVD (without loss of video quality), complete with the original English subtitles and the best available stereo audio? If so, then how?

I must repeat that I am very grateful for the efforts you and Baldrick have been making to assist me in this task. Your patience is much appreciated.

[manono]

Hi-

but I am still unclear why subsequent editing in APE3 would somehow invalidate that process.

OK, I understand. I was under the impression that you're doing both the cutting and other editing after demuxing. I still think you are, and that's why you have to create new subs. If you do the cutting in VobBlanker, giving you a cut and fully functioning DVD complete with good subtitles, and then demux the video to further edit it, at the end keeping the video the same length as the cut DVD, then you should be OK with the subs.

I suggest that you first tell me exactly what steps will cut a single short clip from the DVD at the original video quality, complete with original subs and AC3 stereo audio.

I already pointed you to a guide to cutting with VobBlanker. You don't just cut out a short clip. You cut out/remove what you don't want, and following the processing you'll still have a functioning DVD. That's the beauty of it; it retains the DVD structure without doing any reencoding. At that point you start using the Method 2 of Baldrick's guide, but you don't have any work to do with the subs as they're already good and will be demuxed in SUP format ready for later remuxing in Muxman. Take the demuxed M2V and do whatever you have to in Elements before then taking the final M2V to remux using Muxman, followed by reintegrating it into the DVD using VobBlanker again. The guide goes through the demuxing, remuxing, and VobBlanker steps very clearly. It's up to you to do the Elements work without ruining your video in the process.

It's very importent for this process that you not change the length of the video during the Elements step. If you do, both the audio and subtitle synch will fly out the window. Create separate opening and closing videos authored for little DVDs, using Muxman. They can easily be added to the final DVD later on, using PGCEdit.

I just did a test with a DVD, cutting stuff out, demuxing, remuxing, and then adding it back to the original DVD. It works fine, and the audio and sub synchs are retained. There is one caveat, however, and that is that you can make only one cut per cell/chapter. If you require more than one section removed per chapter, you'll have to process just the one followed by doing it again. So, if you're doing a ton of cuts to get it down to 35 minutes it may be inconvenient to use (or not, depending on how much of a hassle the subtitle work is). It cuts across cells and removes cells just fine, and if you're doing a few large cuts it's definitely the way to go. Maybe DVDRemakePro is better in this regard. I don't know as I don't use it. Plus, it costs money.

[haggis999]

Thanks for the very detailed response. I've got to go out now, but will study it later.

BTW, I was in the middle of editing my last post while you were preparing your reply - which explains why your quotes no longer match my current text. Sorry if this causes any confusion!

[haggis999]

I already pointed you to a guide to cutting with VobBlanker. You don't just cut out a short clip. You cut out/remove what you don't want, and following the processing you'll still have a functioning DVD ..... I just did a test with a DVD, cutting stuff out, demuxing, remuxing, and then adding it back to the original DVD

What DVD are you talking about here? If you go back to my OP, you will see that my original source is a commercial DVD, which is obviously not editable. Are you suggesting that it is necessary to create an intermediate DVD before I burn my final DVD? Are you also suggesting that I don't use APE3 to burn my final DVD?

[manono]

Why is this so hard? Yes, I'm talking about editing your original retail DVD by cutting out the parts you don't want. VobBlanker won't do any transition effects or anything that might necessitate reencoding. You can do that later, if you wish, by demuxing and sending it through Elements to do your thing. VobBlanker is very capable of cutting out the parts you don't want so that your original 2.75 hour opera becomes 35 minutes long.

...you will see that my original source is a commercial DVD, which is obviously not editable.

Since cutting out the parts you don't want is editing, then you're plainly wrong. I even linked to a guide that explains how to do it. I even did a test myself using a retail DVD to prove to myself it's not only possible but easy. I don't generally go around chopping up DVDs, and wanted to make sure it was feasible. And it gives you back a DVD ready for further editing (transitions or other effects, and/or adding in the opening and closing sequences), or ready for burning to disc.

Are you suggesting that it is necessary to create an intermediate DVD before I burn my final DVD?

I guess if you plan on doing some further editing I'm suggesting the creation of an intermediate DVD. If the cutting is enough, then what you get is ready to burn to disc. You mentioned adding in opening and closing videos which you're creating. Those will have to be included before burning to disc. Adding them in is a simple matter once you've authored those short sequences. Just ask how when you're ready.

Are you also suggesting that I don't use APE3 to burn my final DVD?

"Burning" is the process of putting the finished DVD onto a DVDR. You sure as heck don't need APE for that. You burn to disc using ImgBurn. If by burning you (incorrectly) mean the further editing in APE, then that's up to you. You've been fairly vague about your intentions, so even now I'm not entirely sure what you're up to. But by creating this "intermediate DVD" first, you'll be saving yourself the trouble of messing with subs and audio. You'll just have to work with the video. From the moment I first posted in your thread my only intention has been to show you a possible way to save the time and aggravation of resynching the audio and creating fresh subs. I know nothing and care even less about Adobe Elements.

[haggis999]

Why is this so hard?

It's hard because we are both convinced that we are writing in clear, straightforward English - but we are both misunderstanding what the other is saying . Why is this? Well, I think it is mainly because everything here is new to me, while you are steeped in both the jargon and practice of video manipulation and assume that because it is blindingly obvious to you, it must be just as obvious to someone like me.

Take for example my puzzlement about your claim that you could "cut out/remove what you don't want, and following the processing you'll still have a functioning DVD". To me, a DVD is a shiny round thing. If that shiny round thing is a commercial DVD then I can't cut anything out of it except with a pair of metal shears. Your latest answer suggests that you are thinking of a DVD as either a set of files on a hard disk or you are assuming that I have already created a new non-commercial DVD derived from the original. Please clarify ....

[manono]

Your latest answer suggests that you are thinking of a DVD as either a set of files on a hard disk ...

You're the one that opened a thread about editing using Abobe Premiere Elements. That suggests to me that you've already put the DVD files onto your computer's hard drive, and that's what you have to do in order to edit it, reencode it, or manipulate it in any way. Surely you didn't think I was proposing removing over 2 hours of the opera from a read-only disc?

Look, it might take you 30 minutes at most to test out that VobBlanker cutting-out-parts guide; 20 minutes to open the original DVD (already decrypted to the computer) in it and to do a practice cutting-out-of-different-parts, and 10 minutes to process and test the results. You may find it's not for you, maybe because you have too many sections to cut out, or maybe because it doesn't allow you to make the cuts as precisely as you might like. If you don't like it, it's half an hour of your life you'll never get back. If it works for you, you may quickly find it as invaluable a tool as others of us with this video hobby already do, and you may find it saving you many hours of drudge labor.

[haggis999]

I have indeed got a folder on my hard disk containing a bunch of VOBs and IFOs, but I would never in a thousand years think of calling that folder a DVD. I might have a Frankfurter, a sliced bread roll and a bottle of mustard on my kitchen table but that doesn't make it sensible for me to call my kitchen table a hot dog....

That aside, I will do as you suggest and give VobBlanker a trial. Watch this space....

[manono]

It's important to understand the difference between the physical formats (such as DVD-ROM and DVD-R) and the application formats (such as DVD-Video and DVD-Audio). DVD-ROM is the base format that holds data. DVD-Video (often simply called DVD) defines how video programs such as movies are stored on disc and played in a DVD-Video player or a DVD computer (see 4.1). The difference is similar to that between CD-ROM and Audio CD. DVD-ROM includes recordable variations: DVD-R/RW, DVD-RAM, and DVD+R/RW (see 4.3). The application formats include DVD-Video, DVD-Video Recording (DVD-VR), DVD+RW Video Recording (DVD+VR), DVD-Audio Recording (DVD-AR), DVD Stream Recording (DVD-SR), DVD-Audio (DVD-A), and Super Audio CD (SACD). There are also special application formats for game consoles such as Sony PlayStation 2 and Microsoft Xbox.

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.1

It's perfectly OK to refer to those DVD files - the IFOs, BUPs, and VOBs - as DVD. Those software files are as much DVD as is the disc holding that data. Just what is DVD-Video (often simply called DVD) specifically?

The DVD-Video and DVD-Audio specifications (see 6.1) define how audio and video data are stored in specialized files. The .IFO files contain menus and other information about the video and audio. The .BUP files are backup copies of the .IFO files. The .VOB files (for DVD-Video) and .AOB files (for DVD-Audio) are MPEG-2 program streams with additional packets containing navigation and search information.

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#4.10

After running some files through Muxman to create the IFOs, BUPs, and VOBs I don't say I've authored a DVD-Video, but that I've authored a DVD, even if it hasn't yet been burned to disc. When I decrypt a retail DVD to the hard drive, I don't now start calling it DVD-Video. It's still a DVD.