Deen() causing double imaging or ghosting in AVISynth?

[darkdream787]

I have been using deen() with no extra parameters in the parenthesis for a long time now and I havent noticed this before.

My video seems to be fine untill I put deen() into the script then it looks like every few frames you can see 2 frames in one with one of the frames somewhat invisible over the other.

Heres 2 examples

In this first example if you look at the red ice crystal from the blood without deen it looks fine but when I put deen in the script it looks like you can see a half invisible shot of the next frame and the red blood ice crystal where it will be once you advance to the next frame.

WITHOUT DEEN


WITH DEEN






Again heres the same thing, I paused and took a screenshot without deen and it looks fine, even when I advance one frame at a time but when I add deen() into the script you can see the blue background over top of his red cloak on the bottom of it and his foot moved where it will be in the next frame. In the next frame he moves and the cloak isnt there anymore but in this shot you can see both the red cloak still there and the blue background from the next frame covering it up.


WITHOUT DEEN


WITH DEEN





Its almost like this is causing ghosting or something. Ive never noticed this before with any other anime or cartoon I worked with.

I tried adding this instead deen("a2d", 1, 3, 3) and it works perfectly fine just like when I didnt use deen at all. The only thing Im hating is this is causing banding on my video and its pretty bad too. I dont notice the banding when I use deen() but when I add the parameters in banding appears in my video.


why is this doing this to my video when deen() is added in the script? Im just wanting to get rid of some of the noise to clean the image look up.

The source seems to be progressive so I didnt deinterlace the video and cause this to happen.

[jagabo]

Doesn't deen() include a temporal filter? That type of ghosting is common with temporal filters. Basically temporal filters work by averaging several consecutive frames together (on a pixel by pixel basis) -- except when the change from frame to frame is bigger than some threshold. The bigger you set that threshold the more noise reduction you get. But you also risk ghosting in low contrast areas. Exactly what you are seeing.

[poisondeathray]

the "3d" modes are temporal (i.e. c3d, a3d, w3d) , so you might get "ghosting" or temporal artifacts with certain settings or sources, under certain conditions

the "2d" modes are spatial

[darkdream787]

I understand what both of you are saying but Ive used it like this for 2 years and never noticed it before.

Could you suggest a different denoiser then or setting for this denoiser? the a2d mode has no ghosting but it makes alot of banding that I cant stand. I cant get w2d mode to work, I believe I need an older version of deen for that.

[poisondeathray]

You might want to check some of your older encodes

Unless you describe exactly what your goals are, I can't suggest a different denoiser, because "denoising" is very subjective. Some people like to retain details, others like to smooth it to mush.

A common mistake people make is over denoising which will of course predispose to banding, especially with anime. Unless you dither, or add some sort of noise or grain, or use 10bit encoding, or very high bitrates for 8bit encoding, you will get banding

[jagabo]

Could you suggest a different denoiser then or setting for this denoiser?

You might try McTemporalDenoise(). But it's much much slower.

[darkdream787]

You might want to check some of your older encodes

Unless you describe exactly what your goals are, I can't suggest a different denoiser, because "denoising" is very subjective. Some people like to retain details, others like to smooth it to mush.

A common mistake people make is over denoising which will of course predispose to banding, especially with anime. Unless you dither, or add some sort of noise or grain, or use 10bit encoding, or very high bitrates for 8bit encoding, you will get banding

I wish to keep details but I dont mind losing just a tiny bit of it. Deen() takes away slight details like on trees or dirt on ground, or lines on bricks/wood, etc. I dont really like losing the detail but its not so much that its ruined either and I accept deen() at its default.

The reason I even tried deen("a2d", 1, 3, 3) is because for the first time, it was making a source of mine look so washed out I couldnt stand it and apparently deen could be weakened a bit by adding those parameters in. problem is it was causing very obvious banding and some lines looked aliased from it.


As for banding, I dont like the idea of having to add noise/grain to cover up banding when Im using a denoiser in the first place to try and get rid of it.
Ive tried dealing with banding before but I cant seem to get gradfun2dbmod to work, it always claims the function isnt there. no matter what dll's or avsi files I have it doesnt want to function so I said screw it.


does that information help you to assist me any?

at the moment Im trying out removegrain(mode=2) and calling it in the script twice in a row hoping it will remove noise without causing obvious banding.

If possible Id like to be able to denoise without blurring or softening the image much. I like a clearer sharper picture.


also, speed isnt really an issue to me. Im used to encoding and getting 3-6fps average speed. I dont wish to go much slower than that though if possible.

[jagabo]

With 8 bit YUV and 8 bit encoding you cannot get perfectly smooth gradients. There simply isn't enough precision. That's why noise (or dithering) is necessary.

[darkdream787]

You might want to check some of your older encodes

I went back and checked a couple of them and I didnt notice it on all of them but theres a couple I did notice it on when I skipped only one frame at a time.

I guess the reason I never noticed it is when its being played back normally at about 23.976fps I dont really see it hardly at all. I probly would have never seen it during playback had I not tried only skipping one frame at a time.

If its that hard to notice during playback should I even let it bother me at all and just accept it?

[darkdream787]

With 8 bit YUV and 8 bit encoding you cannot get perfectly smooth gradients. There simply isn't enough precision. That's why noise (or dithering) is necessary.

Yeah thats a fact Im lucky to know about but sometimes dislike lol.

This looks acceptable to me and I used deen() on it. I didnt notice any obvious banding on this source after I filtered it. Is this different than 8bit?

[jagabo]

That shot has all high contrast elements. It's easy for a temporal filter to exclude frames when the contrast is high. In your earlier shot the guys shoe was very close in brightness and color to the shadow where the ghost appears. When the brightness/color of picture elements is in the same range as the noise a filter can't tell what's noise and whats picture.

[darkdream787]

Could you suggest a different denoiser then or setting for this denoiser?

You might try McTemporalDenoise(). But it's much much slower.

I cant seem to get it to work. I believe I have all dll files needed, I even have the one its saying it cant load.

FFT3DFilter: Can not load FFTW3.DLL !
(MCTemporalDenoise.v1.3.09.avsi, line 675)

I have that dll file and in the proper directory. I even tried a manual load.

[jagabo]

FFTW3.dll goes in \Windows\System32 in 32 bit Windows, or \Windows\SysWow64\ when running 32 bit programs on 64 bit Windows.

By the way, did you try reducing the "ti" value in Deen?

[darkdream787]

FFTW3.dll goes in \Windows\System32 in 32 bit Windows, or \Windows\SysWow64\ when running 32 bit programs on 64 bit Windows.

By the way, did you try reducing the "ti" value in Deen?

Ill try moving it there then, I put it in the avisynth plugins folder.

The only thing I knowingly altered in deen() is deen("a2d", 1, 3, 3)
Ive tried different numbers where I have the 1,3,3. If none of that changes ti then I doubt Ive tried it. I dont recall even knowing about a ti parameter to adjust nor do I think I know what it does.