Converting HD video in DVD

[IcyRhap]

Hello, I'm trying to figure out converting HD video resolutions of 1920x1080 and 1440x1080 with frame rates of 24 fps and 29.97fps
and I want to be able to convert those files to DVD in very high quality
like using a CCE encoder
I dont want to use things like adobes output to DVD
as the encoders arent that great
What do you guys recommend?
When I export a HD file in premiere to a DVD through there, there is a lot of quality loss, so I want to be able to decode using higher quality

[edDV]

Hello, I'm trying to figure out converting HD video resolutions of 1920x1080 and 1440x1080 with frame rates of 24 fps and 29.97fps
and I want to be able to convert those files to DVD in very high quality
like using a CCE encoder
I dont want to use things like adobes output to DVD
as the encoders arent that great
What do you guys recommend?
When I export a HD file in premiere to a DVD through there, there is a lot of quality loss, so I want to be able to decode using higher quality

Why wouldn't you expect quality loss going from 1440x1080 to 720x480?

What was the source for this file? H.264? HDV? DVCProHD? HDCAM? Uncompressed?
What was the DVD bit rate you were using?

[IcyRhap]

Thanks for replying I have used HDV, and cineform Codec.
I do expect quality loss, but I wanted as minial of a lost there is and I am wondering about using cce. I hope to at least get better encoding then what you can get with adobe premiere. here is some of the imformation. The dvd bit rate used was Mainconcept Video Codec, NTSC DV 16x9 CBR bitrate encoding, and 7 mpbs 1 pass.
If you have anymore suggestions it would be greatly appreciated.

[edDV]

Thanks for replying I have used HDV, and cineform Codec.
I do expect quality loss, but I wanted as minial of a lost there is and I am wondering about using cce. I hope to at least get better encoding then what you can get with adobe premiere. here is some of the imformation. The dvd bit rate used was Mainconcept Video Codec, NTSC DV 16x9 CBR bitrate encoding, and 7 mpbs 1 pass.
If you have anymore suggestions it would be greatly appreciated.

For Premiere Pro try CBR at more bitrate and keep interlace. I've tried up to 9500 CBR for HDV source (FX-1+Z1) and live with the result. This was done in Vegas + Cineform out through the similar Mainconcept encoder. I'll be updating Premiere Pro to CS3 this summer.

Progressive movies are easier to downscale than 1080i HDV. I haven't tried CCE for 1080i to 480i. It performs well for progressive encoding.

[kerpal]

I actually have the same question, I have the same camera as you, the Sony HDR-FX1 and shoot 60i, then convert to 24p. So all my projects are 23.97fps progressive. I want to use CCE or something that the professionals use to transcode my files to DVD. I know there is a quality loss from 1920x1080 to 720x480 obviously, but when you watch when films are downgraded to DVD, you can hardly see a difference, and thats generally like a 4K to 720x480 conversion which is more then 4x that of HD. Obviously I know these are professionals and what not, so it makes sense how well they do this, but there has to be a way to utilize programs such as CCE, etc to create transcodings of HD footage to DVD that is hardly noticable.

Anyone have any luck with that kind of stuff? I also too want to get away from the stuff in Premiere, etc as it seems like encoders that just everyone uses and what not. I'll try my files with 9 m/sec and see if it helps, but definitely want to get my videos encoded with like 9 passes from CCE, etc.

[edDV]

Several issues come to mind.

Film is progressive as is 720p HDV or 480p DV. If these are shot at 24fps conversion to progressive DVD is a matter of resizing (for 720p) or direct encoding for 480p.

DVD authoring pro's often receive a 1920x1080i HDCAM tape from the film transfer house. The film was probably scanned at 4kx2k or 2kx1k (1920x1080) as data. Next step is color correction scene by scene or frame by frame. The 1920x1080 24p result is then telecined to 1920x1080i/29.97 for the NTSC master. It goes to HDCAM 1080i tape because that is the distribution standard used for DVD and broadcast (1080i, 720p, 480p and 480i).

To get from 1080i/29.97 to 480p/23.976, the steps are first to inverse telcine to 1920x1080p/23.976 and then downsize to 720x480p/23.976.

Your 1080i HDV cam records at 1440x1080i/29.97 with pixel PAR at 1.333. In other words, each pixel has a 4:3 aspect ratio. When played, 1440 is 1.33x horizontal resampled to 1920x1080 square pixel for display. This is all done in the DVD player or in the HDTV itself so there is no reason to change the 1440x1080 resolution.

Normally, an HDV 1080i/29.97 source would be uncompressed and converted to a 480i/29.97 DVD for highest quality. The conversion is simple. Each 1440x540 field is downsized to half size in H and to 0.444 in V to get to 720x240 fields. These produce 720x480i/29.97 at output.

HDV 1440x1080i/29.97 to 720x480p/23.976 is more destructive. First the frames need to be deinterlaced to either 59.94 field rate or 29.97 frame rate. Then new frames are constructed at 23.976 fps that are also resized to 720x480. There are many ways to do this but all degrade the video quality. The only advantage to doing is you can get 20% more minutes on the DVD at the same compression per frame. Picture quality will be lower.

IMO it is better to downsize HDV 1080i to a 480i DVD if quality is the goal.

[kerpal]

What if im editing 1440x1080 24p, and then remaster it out to 1920x1080 29.97 HD Uncompressed 8-bit 4:2:2. Could I possible use this to get a better HD->DVD transcoding?

I have Blackmagic's Intenisty card in which I can export my footage this way. In fact, its helped me save quality on occasion. Im wondering if I can use this type of file to master out to DVD using CCE and doing it more like the "pro's" now that im using files similiar to that of HD Cam.

[edDV]

What if im editing 1440x1080 24p, and then remaster it out to 1920x1080 29.97 HD Uncompressed 8-bit 4:2:2. Could I possible use this to get a better HD->DVD transcoding?

I have Blackmagic's Intenisty card in which I can export my footage this way. In fact, its helped me save quality on occasion. Im wondering if I can use this type of file to master out to DVD using CCE and doing it more like the "pro's" now that im using files similiar to that of HD Cam.

I'm a bit lost. Where did the 1440x1080 24p originate? Is this a Sony HVR-V1U or higher?

By DVD are you talking about Blu Ray or HD DVD?
If a normal DVD why not go down from 1440x1080 to 720x480/576 rather than up to square pixels?

[kerpal]

The 1440x1080 24p originals from Cineform, you can convert your footage from raw (1440x1080 29.97i straight to 1440x1080 24p before you even edit).

Im not talking about HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, I was talking about Encoding HD to DVD. From the message up top, it seems that its better to have a 1920x1080 HD Cam file to downconvert to DVD. I can try to get my footage out to this same format before I encode to DVD to try and salvage some video quality.

[edDV]

So your original is 1440x1080i/29.97 HDV

And you first converted to 1440x1080p/23.976 Cineform wavelets?

You took your quality hit right there in deinterlace and frame rate conversion.

From there just downscale to 720x480p/23.976 and encode a progressive DVD. Wavelets resize well.

Why would you want to upscale before downscale?

Alternative would have been to convert to interlace Cineform, then resize to 720x480i/29.97 without deinterlace or frame rate conversion. The "DVD quality" would be better. A quality HDTV or Progressive DVD player would have handled the deinterlace in hardware.

It comes down to project flow and display plans.

[kerpal]

I understand the whole loosing quality aspect of this, I know that converting from 29.97 to 24p will lose slight quality, but the whole question im having is that when I convert to a smaller file like 720x480 and then encode the file to mpeg2 for DVD author, its like im losing quality twice. First I lose quality from 1440x1080 to 720x480, then the re-encode to mpeg2 for author. I guess what im trying to say is there a way to encode from 1440x1080 (regardless the frame rate) to a mpeg2 29.97fps file ready to go. This allows me to just get the loss from 1 conversion rather then 2. Also what im saying is that ive seen some peoples work with Panasonic DVX, Sony Z1U, etc where their DVD authors look a lot better then mine. I was just hoping that I could somehow use CCE to encode the 1440x1080 file straight to mpeg ready for author, rather then having to export my file out to a 720x480 file then transcoding that file.

Also I know that CCE has the ability to really save quality when downgraded over those encoders that are on adobe and what not, that is why I want to use it. It'll run multiple passes to try and preserve the look of the HD rather then give the flat, blurry look of the DV-AVI file, then transcode to DVD. My question here is suppose is: Is there a way to utilize CCE and the HD file to transcode straight to DVD?

[edDV]

Let's go through all the conversions.

1. Deinterlace - high negative quality impact on motion areas (major issue)

2. Cineform Intermediate - small hit going to and from Cineform (wavelet compression). The largest hit comes from the MPeg2 decode. Cineform intermediate format makes timeline scan/scrub and frame increment movement fast and is good for resizing.

3. Frame rate conversion from 59.94 fields/s to 23.976 fps. To do this every pixel is recalculated. It is best to resize at the same time to avoid a second recalculation.

4. Downsize to 720x480.

5. Decode Cineform to uncompressed YCbCr

6. Encode to MPeg2.

These are all separate steps in the process but some software combines steps like 3&4 (Cineform) or 5&6 Adobe Premiere Pro.

For #6 try Adobe's MPeg2 encoder and compare quality and process time with CCE. The Adobe-Mainconcept MPeg2 encoder would probably do better with interlace.

I would suspect the choice of MPeg2 encoder would have less impact on end quality than original source quality (Panasonic DVX, Sony Z1U are higher end camcorders) and the way deinterlace and frame conversion is done. These two steps can be destructive.

It would be fun to test quality for each step.

[kerpal]

Well thanks for the help and what not, I guess I have no choice but to export out to 720x480 and then decode that way. My friend has the z1u and it produces basically the same image as mine, so thats a little weird.

I guess I just have to find a way to export from 1440x1080 to a (HQ - if possible) 720x480 avi and then just encode with the best settings I can find to mpeg2.

[edDV]

Well thanks for the help and what not, I guess I have no choice but to export out to 720x480 and then decode that way. My friend has the z1u and it produces basically the same image as mine, so thats a little weird.

I guess I just have to find a way to export from 1440x1080 to a (HQ - if possible) 720x480 avi and then just encode with the best settings I can find to mpeg2.

Get a clip from your friend and send it through your process to see how much of the quality difference is the camera and how much is the process.

[kerpal]

Ya actually we already did that, hes helping me shoot a film, and im filming with my Sony FX1 w/redrock m2 adapter and 35mm lenses, and hes shooting with his z1u. The quality is identical, this I because I believe that the two cameras use the same video engine basically, besides the fact that it'll do 50i/25fps and it has xlr inputs, but thats the only real difference I can see.

I put his footage through the same process as mine, and the quality on both our cameras looks good in 24p, I can barely really see the difference between the native 60i and 24p footage when its done converting.

As far as the footage going to DVD, the only reason mine stuff looks worse then other footage I have seen, is simply because I probably dont author or encode it as well as the others do, thats why I brough it up here. I know how to encode the HD to the DVD the way you've been stating it, im just trying to find an alternative that would make it look better.

[edDV]

I put his footage through the same process as mine, and the quality on both our cameras looks good in 24p, I can barely really see the difference between the native 60i and 24p footage when its done converting.

You will see the difference in pans zooms or with objects that move.

As far as the footage going to DVD, the only reason mine stuff looks worse then other footage I have seen, is simply because I probably dont author or encode it as well as the others do, thats why I brough it up here. I know how to encode the HD to the DVD the way you've been stating it, im just trying to find an alternative that would make it look better.

What process are you comparing. The pros go through more color correction and motion compensation steps before a theatrical release. Investigate what they are doing. Where are you seeing a difference? What type of scene? What is the difference?

I suspect using Cineform to convert HDV 1080i/29.97 to 1080p/23.976 (deinterlace and frame rate conversion) is where the quality was lost.

[manono]

As far as the footage going to DVD, the only reason mine stuff looks worse then other footage I have seen, is simply because I probably dont author or encode it as well as the others do, thats why I brough it up here.

Wanna upload some 5-10 second examples for us to examine? Maybe one from yours that you say doesn't look so good, and one from a good looking one of his.

[Cornucopia]

I agree with edDV.

Sounds like you could go back to your originals, load/convert to Cineform at 60i and export to DVD (widescreen) at 480/60i and get a much better quality outcome.

The whole "24P" workflow is really something that should be used consistently from start (SHOOT) through edit/encode/author to finish (PROGRESSIVE PLAYER & DISPLAY).

Also, nobody's mentioned it yet, but I know you can get better quality by using 2pass VBR (although that whole "9pass" thing is a little too much for me--law of diminishing returns).

Scott

[kerpal]

I think maybe im getting confused or im confusing you guys....I don't have any quality loss in the actually footage that I am shooting. My footage that I am editing looks just fine. Even with pans and motion on 24p.

The whole loss im talking about is once its on DVD. The HD looks just fine. Looks just like when I shot it. I do a lot of research of how they film, ive been on a couple of sets here in socal, so ive been asking around about methods, etc. Its not the editing process, this is all fine. Its the quality of the mpeg2 final result.

BTW, I do export out to HDV 60i, 29.97fps then down convert to 720x480 before I go to DVD, thats the way ive always been doing it. I just dont like my transcoding technique, im hoping to just find a better method of conversion for that part, whether it be CCE or whatever.

The HD is not the problem, its simply the DVD conversion part. Maybe this clears some things up, I hope I didn't confuse, but please understand when I say that when I view my footage on my timeline and export in HD, everything looks great, especially on my HDTV. Basically the look I have when I view through my HDMI on my HDTV is exactly how I want my footage to be, so everything is good...I just want to preserve as much as possible of that quality on a DVD (if it is possible) if it is not possible, then I will just continue burning my HD files to DVD the way ive always been doing it.

In fact I did 2 projects in the past, one was shot with Cineframe 24, 60i and the quality on DVD was the same (just because I probably didnt encode it well enough), so there was no loss with the conversion to 24p.

I also did another project that was just straight up native 60i and went to DVD as well, same thing, it just looks flat and kind of blurry. I have heard a couple things where SONY HD cameras don't look that good on DVD, but you just have to do the right encoding to make them look good, and that is the question I have. Its not the conversion of the HD footage to HD, ive already done native 60i with no conversion and same results. So simply the transcoding process, which provides the best quality?

[edDV]

I think maybe im getting confused or im confusing you guys....I don't have any quality loss in the actually footage that I am shooting. My footage that I am editing looks just fine. Even with pans and motion on 24p.

The whole loss im talking about is once its on DVD. The HD looks just fine. Looks just like when I shot it. I do a lot of research of how they film, ive been on a couple of sets here in socal, so ive been asking around about methods, etc. Its not the editing process, this is all fine. Its the quality of the mpeg2 final result.

BTW, I do export out to HDV 60i, 29.97fps then down convert to 720x480 before I go to DVD, thats the way ive always been doing it. I just dont like my transcoding technique, im hoping to just find a better method of conversion for that part, whether it be CCE or whatever.

The HD is not the problem, its simply the DVD conversion part. Maybe this clears some things up, I hope I didn't confuse, but please understand when I say that when I view my footage on my timeline and export in HD, everything looks great, especially on my HDTV. Basically the look I have when I view through my HDMI on my HDTV is exactly how I want my footage to be, so everything is good...I jsut want to preserve as much as possible of that quality on a DVD (if it is possible) if it is no possible, then I will just continue burning my HD files to DVD the way ive always been doing it.

No it doesn't clear up your concern.

Post us your perfect pre-encode 720x480i or 480p that you think is wonderful.

Then post the compressed MPeg2. Point out what changes you see that result from compression.

All MPeg2 encoders have quality degrade. Most of this applies to objects in motion or pan/zoom.

[kerpal]

Well obviously I guess my concern has no answers...so I guess I have no choice but to just take your word for it.

In fact, Flags of our Fathers used the Sony cameras (Sony HVR-Z1U, during fighting scenes), and they happened to get that footage to DVD to look spectacular...I guess thats what my goal is, and I guess it can be done.

[edDV]

Well obviously I guess my concern has no answers...so I guess I have no choice but to just take your word for it.

In fact, Flags of our Fathers used the Sony cameras (Sony HVR-Z1U, during fighting scenes), and they happened to get that footage to DVD to look spectacular...I guess thats what my goal is, and I guess it can be done.

Why don't you post examples of what you have?

Of course your HDV through HDMI to a HDTV is going to look better than a 720x480 DVD. Why would you think otherwise?

Making a 720x480 DVD at commercial quality requires each step to be managed with care. You need to look at what you are doing step by step.

I think you need to hire a consultant.

Sure it can be done. Have you researched how they did it?

[kerpal]

I completely understand there is a quality loss, in fact im fine with losing say: 80% quality.

Basically what im saying is: lets pretend im losing 90% quality right now, im trying to make it so im only losing 80%, get it?

I don't expect perfect video from a DVD, I just want something a little bit better then what I currently have, why is this so difficult to understand?

A simple no you cant will suffice...my question is, is there anything better then the encoders on Adobe, if yes, please state which ones, if no, then just say no. This is my question.

I Already know there is a loss of quality to DVD!!!

[edDV]

Is 24p a goal? Why did you accept that loss?

Have you compared your pre-encode 720x480 to post encode 720x480? Why do you think the problem is the MPeg2 encoder?

As said above, I think you took the highest hit in 1440x1080i/29.97 to 1440x1080p/23.976 conversion.

[kerpal]

You keep bringing up the 24p thing, but what ive stated early is ive done videos with native 60i (no 24P CONVERSION!) and ive done Cineframe 24 (no 24p CONVERSION, I left everything 60i). These all yield the same results on a 720x480 file as a film I did with 24p to 720x480.

The reason I think the mpeg2 conversion is the problem is because other people who have the same camera as me use a fx1, there quality on DVD is better because they are using professional encoders (unfortunately at the time I couldn't ask what they were). We BOTH shot native 60i (once again, no 24p on this one, and I did not convert to 24p, I left it all 60i) and my footage did not look as good encoded to DVD as his did.

Once again, we had the same cameras, the same footage (60i, 29.97fps, no 24p, both using Cineform) and his yielded better results to DVD then mine. What else would be the problem besides an mpeg2 encoder? There is only so many ways to down convert your footage to 720x480, so I highly doubt that is where he beat me....

Sure it can be done. Have you researched how they did it?

Thats exactly what im doing right now...trying to find a better way to do it like they did...

[edDV]

You keep bringing up the 24p thing, but what ive stated early is ive done videos with native 60i (no 24P CONVERSION!) and ive done Cineframe 24 (no 24p CONVERSION, I left everything 60i). These all yield the same results on a 720x480 file as a film I did with 24p to 720x480.

The reason I think the mpeg2 conversion is the problem is because other people who have the same camera as me use a fx1, there quality on DVD is better because they are using professional encoders (unfortunately at the time I couldn't ask what they were). We BOTH shot native 60i (once again, no 24p on this one, and I did not convert to 24p, I left it all 60i) and my footage did not look as good encoded to DVD as his did.

Once again, we had the same cameras, the same footage (60i, 29.97fps, no 24p, both using Cineform) and his yielded better results to DVD then mine. What else would be the problem besides an mpeg2 encoder? There is only so many ways to down convert your footage to 720x480, so I highly doubt that is where he beat me....

Sure it can be done. Have you researched how they did it?

Thats exactly what im doing right now...trying to find a better way to do it like they did...

Realize it is difficult to evaluate process without samples. If you are sure the encoder causes the degrade, what are your encoder settings? Maybe this is simple.

Bitrate, Frame Size, CBR/VBR/2xVBR, frame rate, GOP length, audio, etc.

Also you haven't told us the kinds of degradation you are seeing. Do you see it in stationary or only moving clips?

[Cornucopia]

Yes, but you're not being very forthcoming with our request for DETAILED, step-by-step and samples at each.

edDV is right, these downgrades in quality are varied and CUMULATIVE. It's very possible that you are doing something up front, which at that point doesn't look to be degrading in quality, but you have to remember that the encoder is a dumb computer and doesn't "forgive" and adjust like your eyes/brain. So when you get to the next stage, the file may have been "compromised" just enought to drop the quality down another level--this time to something you can actually notice.
The 24p thing is one possible example.

Thing is, you can get AMAZINGLY good quality from a number of standard semi-pro encoders, if you:
1. Have great source material to begin with
2. Do the APPROPRIATE preprocessing, minimizing artifacts along the way.
3. Have tweaked the settings (Open/ClosedGOP, GOP lengths, VBR, Q-tables, MotionSearch, etc).

A visual example of what you consider "good" and what you consider "bad" would go a long way...

Scott

[kerpal]

Thank you guys, this is more along the lines of help I was hoping for, I very much appreciate that.

My settings are:

Mainconcept Video Codec
NTSC DV 16x9
CBR bitrate encoding
7 mpbs 1 pass (as specified above, will try at 8mpbs in the future)

Ive tried a couple others, but they all basically look the same. I am using whatever presets come on Adobe Premiere 2.0.

As far as footage, I dont have any AVI's to post, I do have the ISO's of my films that I use to burn to DVD, but once again, these are big and id rather send you guys private links to them as it would kill the bandwidth to my site as they are over a gig.

If these would help, you'd have to give me some time as it would take forever to upload those to my server. My films that ive completed are currently backed up and im not editing them anymore. But let me know if the iso helps as im willing to upload it if possible.

As also stated above, I do not wish to put you guys through so much work as to completely fix my problems...my original question still is left unanswered, is there any encoders better then the ones on adobe? With this answer, I wouldn't mind pursuing the matter personally rather then wasting more of your guy's time....

[edDV]

I've ordered "Flags of our Fathers" from NetFlix to see what they did. Show us some sample stills or clips of your troublesome scenes.

[manono]

these are big and id rather send you guys private links to them as it would kill the bandwidth to my site as they are over a gig.

No one's asking for the whole thing. We only need samples - 5 to 10 seconds should be enough. Some of us, by studying these things, may be able to see some things that you can't for one reason or another.

my original question still is left unanswered, is there any encoders better then the ones on adobe?

While different people prefer different encoders, or prefer different encoders for different types of source material, from what you're describing, and as already been said multiple times, your problems don't stem from the encoder being used, but perhaps from the settings, and perhaps from slight mistakes you're making along the way, which accumulate so that in the end you finally see some serious degradation, when comparing your DVD with someone else's.