Converting HD video in DVD

[edDV]

As also stated above, I do not wish to put you guys through so much work as to completely fix my problems...my original question still is left unanswered, is there any encoders better then the ones on adobe? With this answer, I wouldn't mind pursuing the matter personally rather then wasting more of your guy's time....

The settings are on the right track. More CBR bit rate might help.

There is no magic encoder. The Pros have higher end encoders but these require detailed operational knowledge and aren't cheap. The real MPeg2 Cinemacraft encoder starts at $2000 and the Vivo/Presto are in the $38K range. Normally these are only affordable by service bureaus. You should consider a consultation with a quality pre-process house for important projects. They will be able to evaluate your process.

Process tweaking before encoding often has potential. This includes the camera and scene acquisition. Often it comes down to lighting and exposure. Your process approximates serious production until the above issues of deinterlace and frame rate conversion.

A serious production flow would decompress at import. First step would be image color (exposure) correction plus noise correction. Scenes with motion or extreme exposure get frame by frame correction or pre-filtering for best encoder performance. Many times scenes are re-shot if they fail at this point.

Encoding involves several feedback loops. Bad motion gets rework.

Action scenes are often hand crafted to keep encoder bitrate spikes under control. Most of this involves reducing pixel detail in the action frames. You can see what they are doing if you stop frame through a major release action sequence. Lots of blur brush use..

[kerpal]

I do not know how to cut my iso to only have 5-10 seconds on it...I just know how to give you the whole thing, im not very experienced when it comes to DVD's...as you can see.

As far as the flags of our fathers, you can see on imdb they used the camera, as well I believe (I read at dvinfo.net) that had an interview with the people who made it and they talked about using the Sony camera, they shot it in cineframe 25 mode and slowed it down by 4% to match the 24p used with the rest of the film. If I find the article again, i'll post it up.

[kerpal]

I see you mentioned Cinema Craft Encoder...this is what ive been asking about since the beginning of this thread as to whether or not to use it.

Im just going to go ahead and try and use CCE to maybe make the image a tad bit cleaner. Thanks again for the help, and definitely check out Flags of our Fathers, I couldn't even tell they shot with it, I thought it was actual 35mm....

[edDV]

Is your goal film print release?

[kerpal]

In the future, actually it is my goal. As of right now, its DVD, soon to be HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, HD-Cam, etc...I want to be able to go to all medias in the future as well as a print to film.

What i'll do is for my next upcomming work, i'll go ahead and try the 24p (I need this as it helps give me the film motion and what not) and i'll be sure to keep all my 720x480 avi's and have samples, so you guys can check it out and what not. I'll go ahead and research CCE and all other mpeg2 encoders that can help and also try higher bitrates on adobe.

[kerpal]

Oh some other stuff ive done to DVD too, to test was I used premiere pro 2.0 where it takes your HD and goes encodes straight to DVD, no making to a 720x480 file. This is actually what id like to do with other higher end programs...be able to take your source HD file and encode it straight to DVD without having to export to 720x480. The only one ive ran into is premiere pro 2.0 so far.

[45tripp]

I do not know how to cut my iso to only have 5-10 seconds on it...I just know how to give you the whole thing, im not very experienced when it comes to DVD's...as you can see.
.

Download DVDshrink.
Open your disk or dvd files with it. Click the Re-author button.
Find the icon with two arrows to set start/end frame. Select range.
Hit backup.
Upload vob to a file sharing site.

[edDV]

In the future, actually it is my goal. As of right now, its DVD, soon to be HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, HD-Cam, etc...I want to be able to go to all medias in the future as well as a print to film.

What i'll do is for my next upcomming work, i'll go ahead and try the 24p (I need this as it helps give me the film motion and what not) and i'll be sure to keep all my 720x480 avi's and have samples, so you guys can check it out and what not. I'll go ahead and research CCE and all other mpeg2 encoders that can help and also try higher bitrates on adobe.

I hope you saved your original HDV or at least the 1440x1080p Cineform master if your goal is HD release. If you want to go to film, you would have been better off handing a 1440x1080i/29.97 master to the film transfer house than your crude 24p conversion. They have the right conversion tools.

Next project you need to seriously reconsider your process and acquisition format. Other than cult folklore, the real reason to shoot and edit 24P is if you want PAL market distribution. HDV is not adequate for serious work. Consider renting DVCProHD or HDCAM equipment.

[kerpal]

Well, the print to film is a goal of mine in the future...meaning that in the future I probably wont be using HDV...

Well since 24p is the devil...how do you suggest getting the film feel and motion from the fx1 without using cineframe 24 (as it is completely trash).

I'll post up some videos of people using my camera who did some awesome things with the fx1 and 24p.

http://www.yayofilms.com/clients/1976/monmasque.mov

So horrible...I know

[edDV]

Excellent Rodriguezish cinematography there. A great look.

On first play it appears to have motion issues. It could be the mov.

All this was done from an FX-1 source?
Are we looking at composites or is this processed from the camera direct?

MOV export may be the issue but the kind of things I'm talking about appear in the folloing frames.





This ghosting represents a possible artifact of 29.97 to 23.976 fps conversion but it may be due to mov conversion.

I'm stepping through this in 24p but still see frame ghosting.

[kerpal]

There is ghosting in the movie trailers on apple.com for the departed and 300 too on quicktime...big deal.

Look at the guys hand and the guys face...

[kerpal]

So how do I get that film speed and motion without 24p, i'll give it a try if you tell me how...and also with no ghosting??

If 24p is bad, then you have to tell me an alternative, if there is no alternative, then what is so wrong with shooting it? I mean, granted you lose a bit of quality, maybe get ghosting (which I kind of like better then interlaced lines), but if there is no other way then...I dont know...but im open for a new method if you tell me what it is.

[edDV]

24p isn't bad. It needs special handling.

Do you see these ghosting issues with your Premiere timeline before encode to MPeg2? If these issues are sent to the encoder, the encoder will detect the ghosts as motion. This lowers quality futher.

My point is the process needs design and 29.97 to 23.976 frame rate conversion should be done carefully and with testing at each step. I'm too distant from your project to make specific recommendations.

If you go from 1080i to a 480i DVD, the file will display properly on a normal TV and will be handled in hardware for a progressive TV. Same issues apply for 1080i HD release. 1080i native will look good on a 1080i display. If your 24p is perfect, 1080i telecine will look good on on a progressive TV.

[kerpal]

Well the way I do 60i to 24p is by the way a person working over at cineform showed me how to do it with their new software. So im guessing that he kind of knows what hes doing. In fact, I have seen a little bit of ghosting, but I even have a little bit of ghosting on my 60i projects as well if I mess with the de-interlace in premiere, so its basically I can use that, or I can have interlaced lines going through all my characters...I guess im taking the lesser of 2 evils.

[kerpal]

Another thing to keep in mind is, about 90% of all my films that ive done in HD were done in 60i, 24p is actually new to me. So all these accusations of 24p causing all these quality loss issues in a DVD is not relevant to me, as most of my films were sent to dvd from a 60i source and not 24p.

[Cornucopia]

Well, I'd have to say that you've been muddying the waters then. Your 1st post talks about problems with 24P. If you've got 2 different (but probably related) problems, each will have to be addressed.

AFA the Cineform guy: Yes, he probably knows what he's doing, WITH A CERTAIN WORKFLOW. My guess is he explained the ingest and edit and export back to ??, HDV. Did he give you pointers on downconverting and in compressing to MPEG2 for std. DVD? I would doubt it.

Scott

[kerpal]

But like ive also stated a million times is that the quality im getting from 24p and my 60i is the same. Also like I stated, 90% of my films are 60i, the other are 24p, this means im having problems with both. I dont see how im mudding the water if the 2 sources im using look the same and yield the same results.

I will take your word for it that sending 24p to DVD is probably worse, but couldn't I just send my 24p project back out to 60i? I mean technically, I could just send my 24p project back out to the camera in 60i, and then re-capture my whole film, edited and all and just send that native 60i video straight to DVD. This would make everyone here feel better about themselves and Id get to stop hearing the ranting about 24p.

And in fact I did talk to him about that to DVD, and he said that OBVIOUSLY you get lower quality, but with good enough transcoding techniques, you can get a good image to your DVD.

[Cornucopia]

The quality you're getting from 24P vs. 60i may LOOK the same to your eyes, especially prior to encoding, but it's NOT the same. That's one point to consider.

You're having problems with both, but that doesn't necessarily mean you're having the EXACT SAME problems with both (from same steps, settings). And this pertains to not-always-visible artifacts that the computer/encoder sees. That's another point to consider.

You could send out 24P to the cam as 60i, and then back in at 60i, encode/author/burn, yes. But you'd be chancing even compounding the error.

What the guy said is what I'd expect he'd say (as would I). Did he give any particulars about YOU and YOUR SITUATION with regard to ENCODERS and SETTINGS? (I would doubt it--I probably wouldn't either unless contracted to do specifically that)

Still waiting on samples, and step-by-step details...
(You don't have to "cut" your ISO, you just have to open/mount it and cut one of the video files)

Also, BTW, which Cineform do you use? AspectHD? ProspectHD? Prospect2K? (could make a difference)

Scott

[kerpal]

Here lets put all this aside...My question here is not for you guys to fix the issues im having, I just want to hear what you guys would do in this situation, your methods, higher quality methods, etc. My original message back on page 1 was to find out if CCE could be utilized to make the final encoded mpeg2 better. This is all theory to me right now, im not here asking: Guys I have a bunch of Films that I need the mpeg2 to be fixed right now. Im just asking, is there a way to utilize higher end mpeg2 encoders to possibly get better mpeg2 results from an HD file (not a 720x480 file).

So let me start over:

Lets say that you guys have all the money in the world and you can author with any encoder etc (even if its a 100k encoder). You have the Sony FX1 (granted you have a lot of money, but you decide to use this camera anyways). You want to achieve a film look and film speed, etc, the whole enchilada.

Please answer me this: How would you film with that camera (what settings?), How would you capture your footage? In what frame rate? How would you finally send out your final footage to DVD?

This is what im asking, what are the preferred ways? what would you do in your situation to get the best possible DVD look from this situation, and keeping in mind you have all the money in the world to encode it the way you like etc?

Answer me that, this is all I want to know, I don't need you guys to fix my problems, I can work on that by myself with trial and error. Im just trying to figure out what else is out there, other methods, other ways of getting the same type of video im doing now, but with the best possible quality (on HD and on DVD). I kept asking well if putting my video to 24p is bad and lose quality, what other way would you guys capture and what not but still have a film speed and a film look, but that hasn't been answer. This is all I want to know, and you guys haven't answered my question. Once again, I have been using examples of my previous films to give you guys an idea of what my goal is, to try and figure out a way to author better, to achieve the best possible quality possible.

So please, let me know what YOU would do, not what I have already f'ed up on, because you guys have already made it abundantly clear how much ive screwed up my footage by going to 24p, so please tell me the "right" method of how to do all this starting from the shooting stage...

Please post step by step instructions and methods, even screen shots of encoder settings that show which utilize the best quality (in your opinion, etc) This is what im looking for...

[edDV]

...

So please, let me know what YOU would do, not what I have already f'ed up on, because you guys have already made it abundantly clear how much ive screwed up my footage by going to 24p, so please tell me the "right" method of how to do all this starting from the shooting stage...

Please post step by step instructions and methods, even screen shots of encoder settings that show which utilize the best quality (in your opinion, etc) This is what im looking for...

Unlimited funds would take you to a top tier post house where they do dozens of these per week.

If those are the videos you shot, the exposure seems reasonably good.

The low risk work path for 1440x1080i/29.97 HDV source would be edit in 1440x1080i (uncompressed* or Cineform) and save the edit master as 1080i. Then downsize to 720x480i and save that uncompressed. Then encode to wide 720x480i/29.97 DVD MPeg2. Try several encoders and pick the best in your eyes.

If you want 24P or PAL versions, take your 1080i, 480i and DVD ISO copies to a quality transfer house and follow their advice.

That's what I'd do. I'd also have detailed discussions with Cineform about their ideas for 24p conversion. Any 24p work would be done in parallel to the 480i path.

* a pro house would be working in uncompressed YCbCr maybe bumped up to 10bit 1920x1080i. Alternative is to stay in Cineform wavelets for speed and quality resize.

[kerpal]

If I had the option of staying at 60i and just doing 1440x1080i/29.97 I would, but is there any other way to get the film speed and what not without going to 24p?

By staying in 29.97 the video is just too fast and not worthy of a film...

[edDV]

If I had the option of staying at 60i and just doing 1440x1080i/29.97 I would, but is there any other way to get the film speed and what not without going to 24p?

By staying in 29.97 the video is just too fast and not worthy of a film...

There are various methods for 24p conversion and filter's like Magic Bullet.

Here's a intro writeups on Cineform's various conversions.
http://www.videoguys.com/cineform.html
http://www.cineform.com/products/FilmmakerWorkflow.htm

I'm going to do more conversion tests when I get time. So far I haven't had need to release in 24p.

[kerpal]

I dont release in 24p, I just edit 24p on the timeline and then convert back to 60i when I finally go to DVD. BTW, ive already used Magic Bullet for converting and what not and ive used film makers 24p as well, Cineform's, I feel is actually better.

[edDV]

Why go back to 60i? That will drive a progressive TV crazy when it tries to deinterlace again.

You can go to DVD wih 720x480p/23.976 FPS and it will play on any DVD player. A progressive player will feed it progressive to the display, or can reinterlace for an interlace display.

The problems you are having with MPeg2 encoding result from the 24p conversion ghosting.

[kerpal]

Those aren't problems im having, because all my past projects were 60i, no 24p, those the ones im referring too, im working on a 24p project right now, but I haven't even gone to dvd yet.

I actually just tested a small like 30 second segment of my 24p project straight from 24p to DVD, no 720x480 conversion before and it looks better then my 60i projects were on DVD.

I just went ahead and did 2 tests:

1. 24p project to 29.97i DVD.
2. 24p project to 23.976p DVD.

In fact, the results of the first test looked better, so actually going back out to 60i yielded better results on a DVD that I tested on multiple DVD players and TV's.

[edDV]

What kind of TV are you using? Is the DVD player connected progressive over analog component or HDMI?

[kerpal]

2 of them are Progressive Scan DVD players.
1 of them is just hooked up analog component.

[Cornucopia]

My workflow would be similar to what I've just helped work on...

Some differences: Using the Panasonic HVX-200 (with Firestore)---I like that camera!

#1--If you do a 24P project (like I said earlier), Start by shooting in 24P (24 advanced if poss., or native non-tape 24P--no pulldown needed there), AND STICK WITH IT.

#2--As most "24P" recordings are laid down on tape as 60i via Telecine, make sure the capture (and timeline) does the correct IVTC. Then you should have TRUE 24P back on the edit timeline.

#3--Edit Uncompressed/Lossless or VeryHighQuality Wavelet (with fairly high bitrate). Up the colorspace from HDV's 8bit 4:2:0 to 10-12bit 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. Picture should be expanded from 1440x1080 to 1920x1080. This all works together, especially when editing/compositing/effects. (Still at 24P)

#4--Export to 24P Uncompr/LL/VHQwavelet in either HD or SD sizes (try both to see which does the better resize job--editor or encoder).

#5--Encode to 720x480@24P (with pulldown flags added to display at 60i).
Interlaced DVD players will play as is, Progressive players with ignore the flags (and triple for 72Hz) or bypass the flags but add full-frame progressive pulldown for 60p.

If you start with 60i in the camera, keep it 60i forever. Sure there are a few ways to get good 24P, but they're tedious and time-consuming and costly to do--not good for workflow (and even then, there are compromises). Just like standards conversion.

Note: between 4 and 5 (or as part of 5), you need to apply some processing/NR. Temporal Noise Averaging. Motion blur for hard-to-encode fast sections. Color and Luminance adjustment to keep levels consistent throughout scenes and GOPs (no "beating", which is seen by encoders as change/motion). High frequency filtering if sharp contrast areas make encoder use too much bitrate. Etc.

Keep the # of generations of encodes/compressions, resizes, framerateconverts, colorspaceconverts to an absolute minimum (i.e. only when necessary).

I've got to assume that by now you're using a tripod/steadicam and good lighting techniques...

Scott

edit: still say VBR is important...

[kerpal]

I really appreciate the information, it does help...

But I was hoping you'd tell me how to do it with the FX1, reason being is that it does not do 24p right off the camera. Granted your using the panasonic, but shooting native 24p and the editing workflow for your panasonic doesn't help me with my situation. Dont take this the wrong way, i'll definitely right this down as if I ever get a panasonic or shoot with native 24p, i'll most likely use that method.

I was hoping you could tell me a method with the fx1 and a way to get film motion out of it other then the method im using right now?