Converting mpeg/vob to AVI for editing...

[rbatty11]

What's the most efficient way to edit DVD material (transitions, fades, etc..)? I deal mostly with mpeg/vob material but would like to try to make some motion menus.. nothing real complex but just grab a couple of scenes from the mpeg video, add some some transition fade ins/outs.. then re-author to DVD.

But i found out that nle apps won't accept mpeg files, only avi's. But i also understand that mpeg is already compressed and i don't want to lose any more quality. I tried using DGIndex but there's no option to converto to a lossless avi file. Can you not just 'decompress' an mpeg/vob file without quality loss?

With VHS sources, i transfer to pc using Canopus ADVC-100 to a dvi file. Can i just hook up my dvd player to the ADVC-100, then transfer to pc, an avi?

[jagabo]

VirtualDubMPEG2 or VirtualDubMod can convert your MPEG files to uncompressed RGB. That's 115 GB/hr for Full D1 video though. You could also compress with a lossless codec like HuffYUV or Lagarith (20 to 50 GB/hr). MJPEG is fast and lossy (but only a little at higher quality settings), 5 to 30 GB/hr. DV at 13 GB/hr.

[edDV]

Forget "lossless" the DVD as already been squeezed to no liquid.

NLE's want full living flesh (raw camera transfers).

You can rehydrate VOBs but they won't be lossless.

[edDV]

With VHS sources, i transfer to pc using Canopus ADVC-100 to a dvi file. Can i just hook up my dvd player to the ADVC-100, then transfer to pc, an avi?

Depends on how you recorded the DVD. Commercial DVD is another story. But you are way down the lossy trail if you recorded to DVD first.

[jagabo]

Forget "lossless" the DVD as already been squeezed to no liquid.

NLE's want full living flesh (raw camera transfers).

You can rehydrate VOBs but they won't be lossless.

The point is that there will be no FURTHER losses for the intermediate file (except minor YUV to RGB conversions for uncompressed RGB) as opposed to MJPEG, DV, or other lossy codecs which WILL incur further losses.

[edDV]

Forget "lossless" the DVD as already been squeezed to no liquid.

NLE's want full living flesh (raw camera transfers).

You can rehydrate VOBs but they won't be lossless.

The point is that there will be no FURTHER losses for the intermediate file (except minor YUV to RGB conversions for uncompressed RGB) as opposed to MJPEG, DV, or other lossy codecs which WILL incur further losses.

You haven't described the source. YUV decompression from MPeg2 has losses and those carry through RGB conversion. I don't get the point that MJpeg or DV are any different from a compressed source?

[jagabo]

Forget "lossless" the DVD as already been squeezed to no liquid.

NLE's want full living flesh (raw camera transfers).

You can rehydrate VOBs but they won't be lossless.

The point is that there will be no FURTHER losses for the intermediate file (except minor YUV to RGB conversions for uncompressed RGB) as opposed to MJPEG, DV, or other lossy codecs which WILL incur further losses.

You haven't described the source. YUV decompression from MPeg2 has losses and those carry through RGB conversion.

I guess I wasn't clear when I said "no FURTHER losses for the intermediate file (except minor YUV to RGB conversions for uncompressed RGB)". I meant "minor losses from the YUV to RGB conversion.

I don't get the point that MJpeg or DV are any different from a compressed source?

Now I don't get your point. The OP said his NLE wouldn't accept MPEG as a source, only AVI. I suggested he could use MJPEG or DV in a AVI file.

[rbatty11]

Thanks for respones. Yes, unfortunately, source material is already recorded on to DVD or from my ReplayTV to hd.. already compressed to heck! damn.. But jagabo, you're correct.. I just don't want to lose any more quality or minimize any further quality loss other than already have by recording to mpeg in the first place.

I know I dl'd Panasonic DV codec to work with my Canopus ADVC-100.. That will still work if i hook up my dvd player to it, then pc, correct? Will just have to try to see how much more loss occurs.. OH.. important question, once i convert to avi, I then must re-encode back to mpeg again, right?? if so, this is just not going to work.. quality is already lacking in the source material.

Is there any other way to add transitions and fade ins/outs to mpegs without converting to avi? Premiere Pro won't accept them directly?

[jagabo]

Yes, you could just play the DVD on your DVD player and capture with the AVCD-100. That will result in a little more loss than converting the MPEG/VOB file directly.

Since you already have the Panasonic DV codec installed, VirtualDub will be easy to convert to DV AVI:

1) Start VirtualDubMPEG or VirtualDubMod.

2) File Open, select VOB or MPEG file.

3) Video -> Fast Recompress (this will leave the video on YUV colorspace, avoiding the losses incurred by YUV to RGB conversion).

4) Video -> Compression... select Panasonic DV codec.

5) File -> Save as AVI.

Audio will be decoded to uncompressed PCM this way. That's probably best for your NLE software and DV AVI anyway.

OH.. important question, once i convert to avi, I then must re-encode back to mpeg again, right?? if so, this is just not going to work.. quality is already lacking in the source material.

Yes, if you're putting it back on DVD you will have to convert back to MPEG.

Is there any other way to add transitions and fade ins/outs to mpegs without converting to avi? Premiere Pro won't accept them directly?

There are MPEG plugins for Premiere but they're expensive. I'm not sure exactly how smart those plugins are. Transitions/fades will have to be reencoded but the parts of the video that are untouched may not. edDV might know.

[rbatty11]

Thank you, jagabo.. I tried last night but ran out of hd space.. need to upgrade from my current 160g before anything.. it never ends.. .

[rbatty11]

jagabo, I just tried in vdubmod and vdubmpeg2 and kept getting error: "video format negotiation failed: use slow re-pack or full mode".. and .. "cannot start compression: source image format is not acceptable (error code-2)." Tried full processing with same results.. Please advise..

Also, in you 3rd step: 3) Video -> Fast Recompress (this will leave the video on YUV colorspace, avoiding the losses incurred by YUV to RGB conversion). Do I have to do anything specific with settings when I re-encode this clip back to mpeg2?? I will be using CCE with avisynth (i usually use very simple scripts).

[jagabo]

jagabo, I just tried in vdubmod and vdubmpeg2 and kept getting error: "video format negotiation failed: use slow re-pack or full mode".. and .. "cannot start compression: source image format is not acceptable (error code-2)." Tried full processing with same results.. Please advise..

Make sure your MPG file is 720x480 (720x576 PAL) because that's the only size that DV supports. Not sure what else might be going on. I don't have the Panasonic DV codec installed right now but I used ffdshow's DV encoder and it worked just fine with my instructions.

Oh, it just occured to me that your MPG file may be 23.976 fps with 3:2 pulldown. VirtualDubMod will not perform the pulldown to create 29.97 fps interlaced frames. That would be a problem for DV since it requires 29.97 fps. VirtualDubMPEG2 will perform the pulldown so, if your source is 23.976 fps, you should use VirtualDubMPEG2. This will not be an issue for PAL sources.

Also, in you 3rd step: 3) Video -> Fast Recompress (this will leave the video on YUV colorspace, avoiding the losses incurred by YUV to RGB conversion). Do I have to do anything specific with settings when I re-encode this clip back to mpeg2?? I will be using CCE with avisynth (i usually use very simple scripts).

I don't know Cinemacraft's encoder but it will simply see a DV AVI file. YUV is the native colorspace for video and DV codecs all use the same color format internally. VirtualDubMPEG2's filters only work in RGB so if you want to filter you have to use Full Processing Mode.

If you use VirtualDubMPEG2 in Full Processing Mode to convert MPG:

1) VirtualDubMPEG2 decompresses the MPEG data to YV12.
2) VirtualDUbMPEG2 converts the YV12 to 24 bit RGB.
3) Filters are applied (or not).
4) VirtualDubMPEG2 sends the RGB frame to the DV codec.
5) The DV codec converts the RGB data back into YUV colorspace in 4:1:1 format.
6) The DV codec compresses the 4:1:1 frame.

In Fast Recompress Mode (no filtering allowed):

1) VirtualDubMPEG2 decompresses the MPEG data to YV12.
2) VirtualDubMPEG2 sends the YV12 frame to the DV codec.
3) The DV codec repacks the YV12 data to 4:1:1 format
4) The DV codec compresses the 4:1:1 frame

So Fast Recompress avoids the YUV -> RGB -> YUV conversions, each of which loses a little color precision. Time is saved too.

[rbatty11]

Hmm.. I gave up on Panasonic DV and installed HuffYUV .. and it worked.. dont' know why one worked and the other didn't. Is there a problem using HuffYUV? My source is telecined NTSC, 704x480, 30fps, 4:3 letterboxed......

Now I just need to find some good tutorials on Premiere Pro.. . Thanks to jagabo and everyone's help.

[jagabo]

Hmm.. I gave up on Panasonic DV and installed HuffYUV .. and it worked.. dont' know why one worked and the other didn't. Is there a problem using HuffYUV? My source is telecined NTSC, 704x480, 30fps, 4:3 letterboxed......

Now I just need to find some good tutorials on Premiere Pro.. :). Thanks to jagabo and everyone's help.

Panasonic DV codec does have some problems. That's why I use ffdshow instead. HuffYUV should work fine -- unless Premiere doesn't like it. You may have to specify the field order (probably TFF) when you add the video to the timeline.

[rbatty11]

OK.. i've imported several very short clips (~5sec each) to create a motion menu. added very simple transitions. Is it normal for the preview in PPro to hesitate or stutter? I checked the avi clips each in PowerDVD and they play fine.

also, i also imported a bmp still image (720x480). basically a duplicate image of my main menu with a fade-in to the actual main menu page. after rendering everything, the bmp image drops off.. it is not there to fade-in to the main menu still.. I looked at tutorials and guides but didn't find.. can someone advise? thanks!