AVI to MPEG2 w/TMPGenc = Poor Quality?

[rrstudio2]

I use MS MovieMaker2 to edit DV footage from my JVC GRD-72 digital
camcorder. Once edited, I export it as NTSC-DV AVI and then have
attempted several times to use TMPGenc Plus to enocde the resulting AVI file to MPEG2 for putting on a DVD. I have heard most people say that the quality from TMPGenc is very good, although the program encodes at a slow to modest rate. In the past, I used TMPGenc for video CDs and was happy with the quality, but when trying to encode for DVD, the
resulting MPG file quality is very poor (or perhaps just as good as videoCD quality. The MPG video is very blocky and pixelated, this is very very noticable when I add captions and such from MovieMaker. The captions and such look very blocky and the edges around the letters are blurred. The original AVI file looks great. I have also tried encoding the same AVI using Ulead's MovieFactory 3 and exporting the AVI file to HQ MPEG2 file. The results of this look fairly good. So I am wondering why I am getting such poor results from TMPGenc and pretty good results from Ulead (which I don't hear people saying is great for quality). I have tried using several tutorials on making DVD files from TMPGenc (i.e. http://dvd-hq.info/Compression*.html) and have tried the DVD templates, but nothing seems to improve the quality. In researching this issue, I did find a post about MS DV codec causing some problems when editing DV files and outputting them to the HD before MPEG-2 encoding but the post didn't give many details as to how to check if the MS DV codec is being used, how to change the codec, etc. Does anyone have any ideas as to why I am getting such poor results from the program most people say is one of the better encoders (especially for the price) out there? I must be doing something wrong with TMPGenc Plus, but have tried several different video files and multiple tutorials. Tried high bitrates (8000), CQ quality of 95, etc.

Just recently I also tried importing some video from the camera with WinDV, and then used TMPGenc to encode it, and also got poor results, which means the problem is not with the video MovieMaker is exporting.

I am also thinking of purchasing Adobe Premiere Elements and am curious how the MPEG-2 encoder is for this program?

Thanks,
Andrew V. Romero

[daamon]

Hi rrstudio2,

Welcome to the forums.

The problem you describe (blockiness and pixelation) is usually a result of too low a bitrate. But you say you've tried high bitrates - 8,000 should be more than enough.

Also, the guide you quoted at dvd-hq.info is one that I've used and recommend to people.

Transferring from cam to PC with WinDV is a reliable method, and encoding that directly (with no editing), and still causing problems is curious.

You are right in saying that the majority of people get good results from TMPGEnc - especially with DV AVI.

Before guessing on possible causes, knowing the following may help:

1. Have you installed any codec packs? Too many codecs can cause problems...

2. Have you changed any settings in TMPGEnc, other than the basics (bitrate, CQ etc.)?

3. Have you installed an MPEG2 codec? If so, which one? GSpot or AVICodec can help with the latter.

I don't know Adobe Premiere Elements, so can't comment.

[ZippyP.]

Try 1/2 DVD resolution. Your bitrate will go a lot further in reducing the blockiness etc. at the expense of some sharpness. You also could try some noise reduction as home movies can be somewhat noisy and this uses up bitrate. The built in TMPGEnc noise filter is pretty good at the default settings but it is quite slow and will greatly increase encoding time. Lastly try using a tripod for your camera to reduce jiggle and motion in the picture.

[rrstudio2]

Thanks for the tips. To answer some questions...
1) I have not installed any codecs unless some were automatically installed with software (i.e. Ulead Movie Factory 3.0).

2) I have had issues with the quality of TMPGenc for a long time, at first I didn't play with many settings other than the basic ones. Lately, I have followed some tutorials about obtaining high quality and went deeper into the settings changing the I's Ps and Bs, but nothing seemed to help much. I have toyed with TMPGenc by myself for sometime now since everyone seems to high on it (i.e. comparing it to Procoder, which I am also thinking of purchasing), but the results I have obtained are all pretty poor. The results I get from exporting a movie from Ulead's Movie Factory 3 using the HQ setting is of much higher quality.

3) I haven't installed a specific MPEG2 codec, again unless it installed itself with a program. I do have programs such as powerDVD, and Ulead's DVD player, and another one I believe. When you say, use Gspot to determine which one, I am not sure exactly how to do that. I am at work, so can't experiment with it but don't recall seeing something in reference to MPEG codec in it. I assume if I load the MPEG2 movie that I made in TMPGenc into Gspot, then I will be able to determine which MPEG2 codec I have installed? I will give this a try when I get home.

I could try the 1.2 DVD resolution, but it doesn't seem that I should have to cut half the resolution to get a decent quality. It may still be a good test to figure out what is going on.

One other piece of evidence I didn't mention is that I use MS photostories which exports WMV files and TMPGenc seems to encode these wmv files fairly well (well enough that I haven't felt a need to try Ulead's Movie factory on them). TMPGenc also seems to do okay converting quicktime movies from my kodak camera to DVD format. Just the DV encoding to DVD is pretty ugly.

Thanks for any ideas,
Andrew

[daamon]

AVICodec (more than GSpot I think) will list all the codecs that are installed - it's pretty obvious how to do this.

You say you've tried the DVD templates. Try this:

1. Capture with WinDV.
2. Open TMPGEnc and close the wizard (if it appears). Click File -> New. This allows access to the settings should you wish to change them.
2. Load that the WinDV DV AVI as the audio and video source in TMPGEnc.
3. Now load the NTSC DVD template (it'll give the basic settings at the bottom of the screen - bitrate etc.). Change bitrate if you think it's too low.
4. Encode and review.

I'm assuming that the footage is actual moving video, and you're not trying to encode JPGs. Too high a bitrate with still pictures can cause problems.

[guns1inger]

Just out of curiosity, what does the AVI file look like after WMM2 has finished with it ? I only ask bevcause it uses the MS DV codec, which tends to be soft and blocky anyway.

[Soopafresh]

Download a high quality video clip and try encoding it with TMPGenc. There are some great ones at http://www.divx.com/movies . TMPGenc is a very good encoder, albeit a slowpoke.

Conversely, try VSO DivxtoDVD, which is free and easy to use.

[daamon]

Divx is a higher compression than DV AVI, and so by nature a lower quality. Unless the site offers true high quality clips as well.

The only advantage of trying a clip from another source is to either eliminate or flush out a suspect.

[rrstudio2]

The original AVI file looks pretty good. I did the test of importing DV using WinDV, then opened TMPGenc, closed wizard, loaded file, and selected DVD-NTSC template and encoded the video file. I also took the same AVI file and encoded it using Ulead MovieFactory 3.5 (exporting to HQ DVD). I then captured two shots at almost the same spot in the video using Ulead's DVD player and wanted to post them so you can see what I see. I know you get some problems due to interlacing in still images viewed on the computer, but you get the idea of the quality differences I am seeing. I did save the images as Jpegs, but they are still too big to post here (they are 230kb each). Here is a link to my site, http://www.u.arizona.edu/~avr/temp/DVD-test.html

As you can tell, there is a big difference in the quality. The TMPGenc quality is very poor, while the Ulead quality is fairly decent. The quality represented in that picture is what I get it seems no matter how I try playing with settings in TMPG.

As far as Codecs...if I load the original AVI file into Gspot, it list the video codec as 4cc dvsd Name: DVC/DV Video then it says there are 2 compatible codecs installed, if I click on that it says the two are

--->DV video Decoder (driver file is listed as qdv.dll)
AVI Draw (driver file is listed as quartz.dll)
DirectShow is apparently able to play the file as well

I assume the arrow means the DV video decoder is the default one. Perhaps that Codec information means something to some of you. If I load the MPEG files in Gspot, it doesn't give any information about the Codecs.

Any ideas as to why quality is so poor with TMPG?

Thanks for your help.
Andrew

[daamon]

Hmmm.... There is a definite difference in the two (particularly the persons right arm and the stick in that hand).

I'm guessing that this was at a high enough bitrate (in TMPGEnc)?

Is there any chance that, while you were tinkering with the settings, that the original templates have been overwritten with ones that aren't optimal?

As a desparate last effort, if it were me I'd try un-installing and then re-installing TMPGEnc. You never know...

[rrstudio2]

So by your response, I suspect that TMPG should be giving me better results than that? So I just tried another encoding test of the same AVI video, using the DVD template changed settings to CQ quality 100, max bit rate 8000 min bit rate 7000 the enable padding is not checked (default), p pic spoilage is at 0 (default), b pic spoilage is at 20 (default). The quality for the most part is still unchanged, the Ulead quality is much higher than this new test TMPG encoding. I do feel better since you think the quality is poor, I was wondering why everyone raves about TMPG when I haven't had good results. Appartently the problem is just with me for some reason...next question of course is why?

The original templates have not been overwritten, I have saved one template for converting kodak qt movies to DVD (for some reason the DVD template wouldn't work on my QT movies from my camera (probably wrong video size or something). Other than that, the templates have not been touched. As for re-installing TMPGenc, I actually recently did. The author had a new version of TMPGenc Plus (which I own) and it was an update to it, so I downloaded and installed the newest version (I now actually have both versions installed). The quality is the same in both, so I don't think it is a problem with a template.

Any thoughts on the issue?
Andrew

PS: Since this question always comes up...yes I have tried buring a DVD and playing in on the TV as opposed to my computer monitor, and the quality of the TMPG encoded video is still noticable poor when compared to the Ulead encoded video. I am interested in trying Procoder Express, but I don't think they have a free demo anymore. I wonder if the quality of Procoder would beat Ulead?

[daamon]

I've only ever used the CBR or VBR settings, so not sure of your CQ attempt. But you'd think a value of 100 and high bitrates would do the job...

I encoded a DV AVI with TMPGEnc default "DVD (NTSC)" template (basic settings: MPEG-2 720x480 29.97fps CQ 65, Layer-2 48000Hz 384kbps), the following is a screenprint from that:



There's a slight blur at the free end of the flag where's it was whipping around in strong winds, but the rest is really clear. The clip was played and the screen print captured in PowerDVD.

Just so you know it's possible, to let you know what you can achieve and to give you hope (hopefully)...

[rrstudio2]

Thanks for the ideas everyone. Unfortunately, I still have no idea why I get such poor results from TMPGenc. Nothing I have tried increases the quality of the encoding. There must be some incompatibility between TMPGenc and my system. I did try downloading the demo version of procoder, which by the way, you have to register on their site before they show you the link to the demo downloads. See my new posting for my thoughts on Procoder.

Thanks for the tips everyone, if anyone has any other ideas for me to try, please let me know.

-Andrew