Disabling Macrovision on AIW 8500DV

[c_hernandez32]

I wanted to know if there is a way to disable the macrovision on my ATI All in Wonder 8500DV capture card? The manual says that it won't capture video from copyrighted material, but have yet to try it. I figure it is easier to connect a DVD player and capture the video, then to wait 5-10 hours to rip a DVD the easier way.

Also does anyone know how to make the TV tuner on the card decode digital cable, so as to watch channels 200-500 on the computer without having to connect a digital cable box?

[FOO]

You're confused. No way you're in Austin
Ripping a DVD takes 15 minutes.
Capturing a DVD takes a hardware Macrovision remover
and the length of the movie in time and you will lose a lot.

No way in hell the TV tuner will decode digital cable. Give up on that

[RayH]

Use third party software to capture the video from the All In Wonder Card. I use Virtual Dub. It works just fine. I like to make copies of foreign language DVDs into VCDs.

[overloaded_ide]

c_hernandez32,

I figure it is easier to connect a DVD player and capture the video, then to wait 5-10 hours to rip a DVD the easier way

Are you running a 486SX 20hz Cpu with 4 megs ram??

It takes about 5-10 MINUTES (not hours) to rip a DVD

As mentioned, if you try to capture it from a player as you said you will lose alot! First you have to actually play it as a movie, so a 2 hr movie takes 2hrs to capture. Then you lose quality, menu's, extra's etc...
What you end up with is a VHS tape of the movie basically, then you have to author THAT into a DVD, then burn the DVD to a disk.

Very much problem!!

Rip quick, do what ever you want to the DVD quality files, then burn that! Much faster and better quality.

[lordsmurf]

You're confused. No way you're in Austin

I don't know. That's where our government is run from... and they're normally pretty confused. Democrats running away, anyone?

[c_hernandez32]

I don't mean ripping itself, but actually conversion:

DVD>(S)VCD

If it takes 5-6 hours to complete a complete conversion, then you sure save alot of time. VCD doesn't have many of the same features as a DVD.

[c_hernandez32]

Ok I want to clarify the subject

DVD>SVCD via computer ripping/copying/ecoding 5-6hrs

DVD>Capture mpeg2 2.5hrs

DVD>Rip Chapters 15 minutes max(?)

Mpeg2+chapters>SVCD about 3hrs max

[kpkilburn]

Macrovision is a technique used to discourage copying. It is simply noise that's injected into part of the video signal. When you try to copy a Macrovision-encoded signal, you typically get a bright-dark-bright-dark effect on the video. This can range from mild to severe. On some VCRs or video capture cards, this may not even have an effect.

"Disabling" Macrovision is typically not possible because it's the result of the AGC (automatic gain circuit -- the part that controls the brightness levels) going crazy from the noise. It's not a setting that you can disable on the card.

If there does happen to be a "disable" setting, then that particular device has some additional circuitry specifically designed to eliminate Macrovision.

Remember that this is different from removing macrovision from DVDs. On a DVD, there is a flag that says "Macrovision on/off". If it's on, then the machine will inject the noise after the video is converted from digital to analogue. On a videotape, the Macrovision is encoded on the tape itself.

When Macrovision first came out, some VCRs could bypass it by just deactivating the AGC circuits. Some didn't seem to be affected by it.

Anyway, if you want to backup videotapes that are Macrovision encoded, then your best option would probably be a box that you bridge between the video source and the input to your capture card. No need to do that with a DVD since you can just rip the DVD and re-author it.

Here are some links for more info if you're interested...

http://www.wdln.tv/Info.htm

http://www.repairfaq.org/filipg/LINK/F_MacroVision1.html

and

http://home.quicknet.com.au/andrewm/macro/

[lordsmurf]

Incorrect.

Macrovision has ZERO effect on anything OTHER than the AGC on a VHS VCR. Even most S-VHS decks ignore it.

Only a few cards have DLL control (typically) to acknowledge and obey Macrovision. ATI is one such card, but hacks to overwrite the DLL exists (and are found for download in my ATI capture guides).

Cards do no have AGC and therefore do not see Macrovision, they only acknowledge garbage in the signal. Some DLL controllers are set too high and even old homemade tapes with garbage in the signal will cause the DLL to enable and block the signal or encode improperly on purpose.

No DVD has any magic on/off switch. It either has ot or not, and if it has it, it's sent to the DVD player. However, much like a computer capture card, many DVD players ignore the Macrovision information and filter it out rather than passing it along the analog datastream it creates at output.

And the bright/dark is only one form of Macrovision. There are at least 3 official levels, all with their own side effects, and even then there are variants.

[vcdforme]

I wanted to know if there is a way to disable the macrovision on my ATI All in Wonder 8500DV capture card?

Sima Color Corrector $40 at Walmart or Best Buy.

[kpkilburn]

No DVD has any magic on/off switch. It either has ot or not, and if it has it, it's sent to the DVD player. However, much like a computer capture card, many DVD players ignore the Macrovision information and filter it out rather than passing it along the analog datastream it creates at output.

My understanding was that DVD disc itself has a coding on it that signals the player to either enable or disable Macrovision. That is why you can remove it from a ripped DVD. Is that not correct?

[FOO]

I will have to disagree with Mr. Smurf on the AGC thing.
My AIW 8500 has an AGC and I get the alternating light dark
picture from commercial VHS tapes. In addition to the very
high luma signal in the vertical retrace , there are spurious
horizontal SYNC pulses. Those are what really tear up a
capure and they are what the card detects to prevent capture.
You can disable the sync detection with software , but the
light - dark effect remains.
I am working on a gadget to fix that. (Too stubborn to buy one)
In the mean time I have an Avisynth script that fixes almost all
of the light-dark thing.

[lordsmurf]

I will have to disagree with Mr. Smurf on the AGC thing.
My AIW 8500 has an AGC and I get the alternating light dark
picture from commercial VHS tapes. In addition to the very
high luma signal in the vertical retrace , there are spurious
horizontal SYNC pulses. Those are what really tear up a
capure and they are what the card detects to prevent capture.
You can disable the sync detection with software , but the
light - dark effect remains.
I am working on a gadget to fix that. (Too stubborn to buy one)
In the mean time I have an Avisynth script that fixes almost all
of the light-dark thing.

That's not really an AGC, but rather the ATI card recognizing the Macrovision and emulating the error. That only happens on certain MMC too. Most of them refuse to allow you to capture. Anything beyond that is just tape errors being passed on t the card. I see this in old EP tapes, but if you look closely at the tv, it's there too.

[Towncrier]

FYI - According to the salespeople at my local Best Buy, they no longer carry the Sima Color Corrector due to the fact that it can be used to defeat Macrovision.

[FOO]

Mr Smurf , I must insist that you are incorrect.
I am watching the video signal from a VCR with an oscilloscope,
that has video sync capability,
while watching the display on the ATI MMC Preview. The
presence of "excessive luma" type of Macrovision is exactly
synchronized with the light and dark behavior of the display
and the resulting capture. If the ATI did not have an AGC it
wouldn't do that because the high luma occurs during an invisible part
of the display. It's not present on my TV

I'll say it again - there are several different disturbances that Macrovision introduces.
One is the insertion of multiple extra horizontal syncs, and another is
a huge increase in luma level right before the picture displays to cause
the AGC to reduce the video gain. The software hack only fixes the first kind.

[spiderman2k1]

There's a ATI AIE fix at www.doom9.org for macrovision alot of time's ATI card's will just lock up with macrovision. The fix will stop it from locking up. But will not stop it from getting dark and bright. So get your self a Sima Video copymaster for $50.00 dollars and patch you ATI drive with the patch at www.doom9.org

[FOO]

If you have the Macrovision remover hardware,
you don't need the patch

[spiderman2k1]

"FOO" yes you do on ATI some time's ATI think's it see macrovision on old tape's that have some color shift's. I know I did alot of test and I have a "Sima video copy master" some time's even on old tape's that do not have Macrovision and the signal is weak ati aiw's will lock up thinking it's Macrovision. The patch just fix's the driver to turn off Macrovision and not to look for it in the stream.

But you are right but ATI AIW are buggy

[Bob W]

This device will kill macrovision and even CSS.
http://www.facetvideo.com/

[lordsmurf]

The ATI tries to truly interpret the data its given, unlike a VCR and a tv. I see the high luma at times too, but it's because the tape sucks, not from any kind of AGC (which doesn't exist on capture cards). Sometimes the TBC can even cause the problem.

As far as a "weak signal"... all the signal are the same power if that's what's being said. But it may just be corrupt is the real problem, causing errors similar to the Macrovision ones. A TBC is needed to stabilize the signal.

I've got a few hacks at lordsmurf.com on my ATI pages, and they work fine on all ATI MMC 7.x and 8.x releases tested on.

[FOO]

AGC (which doesn't exist on capture cards).

You will now have to explain why we see the light - dark
effect on the display when Macrovision is present. I
don't think you can. You don't know what you are talking about

[lordsmurf]

AGC (which doesn't exist on capture cards).

You will now have to explain why we see the light - dark
effect on the display when Macrovision is present. I
don't think you can. You don't know what you are talking about

The AGC is a circuit that is not on the cards. In fact that circuit only exists on VHS VCRs. Now there may be a software emulation, like the software emulation used for Macrovision, but I see no evidence of it.

Could I be missing something? Sure. I've been wrong plenty of time in my life. But I'm not seeing that. I wish I could see the error you have, as I'm betting it's caused by another factor being overlooked, but unfortunately I can't. I've not seen it.

[FOO]

I haven't found the ATI hardware yet, but here is the Brooktree 848.

that circuit only exists on VHS VCRs

[/quote]

[lordsmurf]

Hmm.. I looked through my documents...

The ATI Theatre 200, found on the 9700-9800 cards has an "advanced AGC" as a "new feature" though the AGC is not spelled out as being an automatic gain control. Likely it is, but you never know in the world of abbreviations.

However, diagrams of the board show no such AGC circuitry, neither from ATI documents nor others I have.

Still no mention of it on the ATI Theatre Rage chips (on the 7000-9600 and 128Pro and few others).

I'm still betting on emulation if anything.

I find that BT diagram interesting, as I was unaware of cards having or even needing AGC like a VCR. Where'd you find that diagram? And are you sure it means 'automatic gain control' and not something else?

[FOO]

Conexant bought Brooktree. I found the official data sheet for
the chip there. It is an Automatic Gain Control.
You just about have to have one. If you don't arrange to have
bright white at near the largest number the A/D can produce ,
there will be quantization problems. 8 bits is just barely enough anyway.

I can see the quantization noise in videos reduced to 7 bits.

[FOO]

I have now read the data sheets for the BT878
and the AGC can be disabled in software. This may require
a hardware mod also because the A/D would then
need an external voltage reference or an AGC timing change.

Anyway, who cares . I have an ATI . I need a fix for that.

I think it would be a great service to mankind in general and
me in particular if we could figure out a way to freeze the AGC in
an ATI. If you have chip data sheets or board schematics, please
tell me. I would rather fix the board than run the video thru a TBC
or Sima thing.

[racerxnet]

I have been concerned about the macrovision on the 8500DV for my own personal movies at home and see the ill effect of the light to dark picture while in the capture mode. I have been using a hex editor to look at the .bin file of the bios. My quest is to see where the macrovision resides. Is it on the chipset and can it be disabled? Or, is it software based in the WDM drivers loaded onto your system. If it is in the drivers and you download the latest 3.9's, you just reinstalled the macrovision software. Several files in the hex editor list the macrovision as part of the code. ATIVMVXX.AX and ATIVTMXX.dll are two of them. Upon removing them, the only thing it accomplished was no picture in Video Studio 6. Reinstalled the WDM drivers and all was well again. No biggie. Any ideas out there regarding this macrocrap.

MAK

[lordsmurf]

You probably cannot remove them. But you can likely patch them and alter code. Maybe loop unwanted code so that it is rendered ineffective.

[racerxnet]

Well, I found from my research so far that the MVD WDM VBI Codec in the system properties, contains the Macrovision code. I am going to remove the 3.8 WDM driver and clean the registry. After that I will load the oldest WDM driver from ATI's site and install it and test the results. In the mean time I will reverse engineer the bios code and look for the macro protection. From what I see so far, the Rage Theater chip contains the macro code.

Thanks MAK

[FOO]

I don't think you understand how Macrovision works, or you
would know it can't be fixed in software.
The Rage Theatre Chip is HARDWARE. It does not contain Macro code
because it contains NO code.

The offending Light/Dark Macrovision mode works by raising the
luma level to near 200% of bright white immediately before
the picture is displayed, which causes the AGC to reduce the
Luma Gain for the next picture. This makes the picture dark.
They ramp this effect up and down with about a 10 sec period.

No software is involved .

I can't prove this with ATI but all the Conexant chips work as I have described. If you think the ATI chip is a DSP with microcode, fine.
It still runs on the ATI card , and we can't get at it.