Help with Hauppauge usb live2 and PAL capturing

[Vinterlord]

Hi everyone, this is my first post on the forum. I’ve actually been reading for quite a while and tried to document myself as much as possible before asking for help and advice here.

I’m about to digitize a few dozen PAL VHS tapes containing transfers from 1990s Sony analog camcorder recordings. The VHS tapes were recorded using consumer VCRs of that era.

Here’s the setup I own for that process:

- JVC HR-7960E configured with TBC: ON, B.E.S.T. (calibration for us versions): ON, PICTURE MODE: COPY (EDIT for US versions)
- Hauppauge USB Live2 capture card, model number 122020 (model 1381 is also indicated on a label on the box)
- S-VIDEO connection, with red/white RCA audio into the Hauppauge
- Windows 11 Professional 64-bit
- VirtualDub 1.9.11 (32-bit)
- Huffyuv 2.11 codec (vanilla, no modifications, 32-bit)
- Modern computer with Core i7, 32gb ram ddr4, SSD m2 hard disks

Hauppauge live2 settings:

In Windows Device Manager, the driver shows as version 5.2024.424.42116 dated 25/04/2024, installed via Hauppauge Capture version 42316.
If I instead download only the driver package 36075 (without the Capture or WinTV software), it says no compatible hardware is found for the update, but also reports that my current Live2 (model 122020) is working correctly. I honestly find this a bit confusing on Hauppauge’s part.


[Attachment 91916 - Click to enlarge]

Driver "error" message:

[Attachment 91919 - Click to enlarge]

VirtualDub 1.9.11 settings:

Capturing at 720x576 using Huffyuv 4:2:2 interleaved
If I enable “overlay” or “preview,” I unfortunately can’t see or hear anything , but the capture itself completes successfully and the file is fine. Does anybody experience the same issue?
In the attached image you can see the proc amp settings, which I’ve left at default:


[Attachment 91917 - Click to enlarge]


In addition to the issue related to the overlay/preview that is not working in virtual dub, I can see the audio in general lags behind the video, it is not very clear in clip I attached because it is an action scene but in scenes with speaking it is more clear.

For me, this is my first time doing this however, I’ve looked at capture samples from other users with similar setups, and my results seem very comparable.

On the other hand, I’ve seen much more experienced users perform detailed histogram analysis and adjust proc amp values and other settings accordingly, as well as being able to choose the right capture codecs. That’s something I’m not yet fully capable at doing, but I’d like to learn

I’ve also noticed that many people use AmarecTV instead of Virtualdub, and other codecs like Lagarith instead of Huffyuv. I’d really appreciate hearing your thoughts on all of this and on my setup and first result!

Many thanks!

Attached there is a portion of my first capture test.

[lollo]

So, you're using the latest hardware version of the USB-Live 2 with the old drivers 36075. Drivers version 39299 would allow you to capture in the 0-255 range, but it suffers of automatic level shifting for levels in the range 235-255, which is not nice. See this thread for more details: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/418254-Info-Hauppauge-USB-Live-2-capturable-range

You capture is overall nice for details, colors, etc., but it shows crushed blacks and clipped whites. In addition, the capture range is expanded (if you did not touch the procamp settings, it is so by default by the combination of hardware and software that you're using), and this is causing gaps in the histograms, which is not nice.

Some details:

crushed blacks (see the accumulation of the histogram at Y=16):


crushed blacks (see the accumulation of the histogram at Y=16) and gaps in the histograms:


gaps in the histograms:


clipped whites (see the accumulation of the histogram at Y=255) and gaps in the histograms:


nice distributed histogram but with gaps:


So, try to reduce the constrast and or the brigthness to obtain a well centered histogram without crush/clip and gaps.

Concerning the a/v asynch, move to AmarecTV for modern cards and modern OSs, while keeping original HuffYUV lossless codec for capturing.

Your file is PsF (the two fields are at the same moment in time) and properly captured YUV 4:2:2 720x576 50 fields per second. A basic AviSynth restoration with light denoise and light sharpening is adapted for a small visual improvement.

[Alwyn]

users perform detailed histogram analysis and adjust proc amp values and other settings accordingly, as well as being able to choose the right capture codecs. That’s something I’m not yet fully capable at doing, but I’d like to learn

Getting the "levels" aka Brightness and Contrast right is important. I have a section on my website here which describes, in detail, the issue and how to set the levels correctly. My normal workflow is to set the levels with VDub, then capture with AmarecTV using the same Proc Amp settings.

A couple of the purists might poo poo the idea of using the VDub histogram but when you're starting out and don't have "an eye" for what's right and what's wrong, it's a great aid to help you calibrate your eyes.

[Vinterlord]

thanks for all the tips so far

I’ve spent some more time studying your suggestions and made a few small adjustments to the proc amp settings. Sorry for the Italian interface in the attached picture (couldn’t find a way to switch virtualDub to english), but essentially I increased brightness slightly from 128 to 129 and reduced contrast from 21 to 17

While tweaking, I kept an eye on the histogram and tried to avoid any red areas, I still occasionally see some red on the right side (whites) but I understand that it’s mostly about finding a compromise that works reasonably well across the different scenes of the movie.

If I’m interpreting things correctly, the various clipping and gaps in the histogram seem to be mostly gone now. However I do notice some strange peaks at regular intervals (see attached image).

Visually, to me the new capture looks slightly darker, but I can see more details especially in the clouds where highlights were previously clipped in the first capture.

Does this look like I’m moving in the right direction?

[Vinterlord]

So, you're using the latest hardware version of the USB-Live 2 with the old drivers 36075. Drivers version 39299 would allow you to capture in the 0-255 range, but it suffers of automatic level shifting for levels in the range 235-255, which is not nice. See this thread for more details: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/418254-Info-Hauppauge-USB-Live-2-capturable-range

so in general do you suggest to stay with the old drivers?

[lollo]

You still have accumulation on Y=16.

And now the "gaps" in the histograms changed to "spikes" (expected).


We had a discussion about the impact of gaps and spikes in the histogram some time ago, try to search that thread to have more details.

I don't know if is feasable with your source, but you should try a compromize between crush/clipping and histogram shape.

About the drivers, as I wrote the new are producing some AGC effect for Y in 235-255 levels as reported by Sharc, so you can set the procamp to alway stay in range 0-235 (with new drivers allow capturing Y<16) or stay with older drivers.

[Sharc]

As you concluded correctly the downturn of the brights recovered details which were lost before. That's perfect.
Now you still have the crushing at Y=16 which is how your driver operates obviously.
The spikes represent accumulation of certain luma values due to 8bit rounding effects. To be more precise it actually means a certain loss of data, as opposed to the former gaps which represent missed codes due to rounding effects, but no data are actually lost (except for the clipping of course). Neither effect is usually dramatic though.
Maybe you can find a better compromise between the 2 cases. Dithering in post processing or just adding a tiny bit of noise helps to flatten the histogram.
There was a thread on this some time ago I am tring to find ......
Keep the current driver? If you have the time it would be interesting to see how the card behaves with latest drivers. Does the undesired auto-level adjustment still exist with new driver and your new Live2 version? Just curious, worth a test.

Edit: Here the link to the related discussion:
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/402267-Adjusting-capture-card-levels-not-sure-if-it-s-right

[Alwyn]

Looking good there, Vinterlord. Yes, it is a bit dark; plenty of detail in the clouds but they're a bit too grey, IMO. It is also a tricky scene because you're going from a dark room to bright outside.

You can assess your capture using the histogram in VDub. Not as flash as lollo's AVISynth histogram but you'll see you are a bit dark. When your file is open in VDub, go Video>Filters>Add... and select the Histogram filter. OK back out to the main screen and you'll see that the histogram shows encroachment on the left end (too low brightness), and also, the right end is a bit too far left as well; it could be moved to the right a bit by increasing the contrast, so spreading out the histogram a bit.

You can scrub through your whole capture and check the histogram.

Ultimately though, unless you're going to do multiple captures of different areas of the tape (bright scenes and light scenes), you have to strike a compromise. Unless you're perfectionist and of course, depending on the importance of the capture, you don't want to be doing multiple captures.

If you capture slightly dark, you can always boost the levels. If you are way too bright or too dark, you'll capture pure black on the left edge and pure white on the right edge and you won't be able to get any video info at from those extremes.

Another thing to consider is that you can adjust the levels post-capture, either with AVISynth or using a filter in VDub. Colormill has a great levels control. I put some details about using Colormill in a recent post here. Or you can adjust them in your video editor (when you'll be able to isolate scenes for different treatment).

Raw capture (note left edge in the "too dark" zone):

[Attachment 91944 - Click to enlarge]

After adjustment of the levels with Colormill:

[Attachment 91945 - Click to enlarge]

[Alwyn]

If I enable “overlay” or “preview,” I unfortunately can’t see or hear anything , but the capture itself completes successfully and the file is fine. Does anybody experience the same issue?

Welcome to the weird and wacko world of Virtual Dub.

You will need to run Graphstudio to adjust the Proc Amp values. It's easy to set up, no coding required! See my guide here. Set VDub to Preview.


[Attachment 91947 - Click to enlarge]

Don't pay a lot of attention to my Proc Amp values; I'm using the 122000 version on the latest version driver 39299.

[Sharc]

@Vinterlord. Sidenote: You may have noticed the glitch in field#985. You may want to address such issues in post processing as well, once you are at it.

[Vinterlord]

I’m back with some new tests after going through your suggestions

In test 5, I slightly increased both contrast and brightness, trying to reduce the black crush at Y=16 while still avoiding the clipped whites I managed to preserve in test 4. However, looking at the histogram, it seems I didn’t fully succeed, as the black crush is still present. Even though, to my eyes, capture 5 looks “good” and slightly better than the previous one, I understand that I shouldn’t rely on my eyes in this process

In test 6, I deliberately pushed things further: I significantly increased brightness and reduced contrast in an attempt to eliminate black crush, avoid any clipping in the highlights, and keep everything within a “correct” histogram range. However, based on the histogram, it seems I didn’t succeed here either—the black crush appears to have just shifted to the right (perhaps it’s inherent to the VHS source itself). Visually, test 6 looks quite bad to me, as the image is washed out. However, after reading the post linked by Sharc, I’m wondering whether this approach could actually yield better results in post-processing compared to a more visually pleasing capture like test 5

What do you guys think?

My next step will be to try updating the driver to the latest version, to see if the proc amp handling has improved

[Vinterlord]

@Vinterlord. Sidenote: You may have noticed the glitch in field#985. You may want to address such issues in post processing as well, once you are at it.

yep, I'd love to understand how to do that once I'll go through the post-processing

[Sharc]

Cut5 is probably as good as it can get IMO.
The dark "crush" in some of the pictures is in the video and/or possibly introduced by the capture device driver, or even by the VCR. And don't get fooled by the black bars on the sides and the head switching noise at the bottom. For histogram analysis these borders should be cropped off.
(I added a tiny bit of grain to smoothen the histogram)


[Attachment 91954 - Click to enlarge]

[Alwyn]

If you're into AVISynth, the "across the top" histogram [code TurnRight().Histogram().TurnLeft()] is useful because it shows you what in the image is causing the blowouts. You can then decide to ignore it eg a small bright white spot that is irrelevant to the overall video. And add Autolevels() before the Histogram code and watch what happens!

Even though, to my eyes, capture 5 looks “good” and slightly better than the previous one, I understand that I shouldn’t rely on my eyes in this process

On the contrary, your eyes are, ultimately, what you use to enjoy your video. And with a little experience, you will easily recognise problems (as you have already done comparing 5 and 6) and be able to fix them.

[davexnet]

Autolevels is cool, never used that before. I came up with
levels(3,1.1,255,0,235,coring=false) for a manual method

Autolevels() keeps the contrast a little higher (I didn't look at its adjustments)

[Sharc]

Interesting and amazing yes. Lot of efforts have been put into its development, but I am somewhat less euphoric with "auto" tools.
See for example the unnatural brightness flashes (looks like someone would switch headlights on and off) in transitions of frames 72->73, 207->208->209, 211->212. Still relatively harmless for this clip though. No critism, just a caveat.
It's version 0.12 beta 3 if I am right. If interested in more details see the development, comments and experiences here
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176491

The OP's Cap5 is the one I would keep as a capture. From there onwards it's post processing, with plenty of options. I would probably go ahead with something like gradation curves instead of just linear level adjustments. Maybe Retinex (possibly with a mask) is also worth a test.
All in Avisynth. We have already left the capture phase .....

[Vinterlord]

Thanks again for all your advice.

I’ve now captured one of the actual camcorder tapes that I need to digitize. I’m attaching a sample from a VHS containing recordings from a Sony analog camcorder (originally recorded in 1996 with the following chain: Sony camcorder → composite A/V connection → basic consumer VCR → VHS).
The tapes were then stored in an attic for many years, so the current quality is what it is…
So this capture serves as a good stress test for the JVC VCR, the Hauppauge, and other settings.

This tape, when played back on a basic VCR and CRT TV, shows a lot of glitches and various disturbances and is really quite unpleasant to watch.
During capture, using the JVC with TBC ON and the B.E.S.T. and EDIT functions, this is the result (I'm attaching just a small cut of the entire vhs).

In my opinion, the capture still shows some glitches and vertical flickering, flickering which seems to me to have been introduced by the JVC’s TBC as a sort of trade-off (I’ve noticed this happens with some tapes).
I also notice some horizontal noise at the top of the image.

As for the proc amp levels, I think I now have a much better understanding of how to set them correctly.

Regarding the artifacts present in the capture, I’d like to ask if they can be mitigated in post-processing.
In my first post I listed the hardware I have available (I also have a philips VR765 with composite only and no TBC, but artifact handling is visually worse compared to the JVC).

I'm also adding the timing settings I used in VDub


[Attachment 91983 - Click to enlarge]

[Sharc]

Reverting to the capture: Did you notice the ghosts? It is not motion blur. I suspect this is due to the JVC's denoiser (which can't be fully disabled). Just curious what others think.


[Attachment 91984 - Click to enlarge]

Edit:
Sorry, you (the OP) already switched to a new case while I was typing ....

[Sharc]

Cap7: You got 2 bad inserted frames (77, 131) for whatever reason (compensation of earlier drops? A/V sync issues?)
Vdub experts may comment on your timing settings. I would suggest to try AmarecTV as an alternative.

Edit: The glitches/flagging at the top may have been burned into the tapes when making the copies/transfers. As it is few lines only you may want to just crop (mask) these.

Edit2: The yellow is oversaturated and creates out of gamuts. You can address this in post with something like (also improving the white balance):

ColorYUV(cont_u=-80)

[Vinterlord]

Cap7: You got 2 bad inserted frames (77, 131) for whatever reason (compensation of earlier drops? A/V sync issues?)
Vdub experts may comment on your timing settings. I would suggest to try AmarecTV as an alternative.

Edit: The glitches/flagging at the top may have been burned into the tapes when making the copies/transfers. As it is few lines only you may want to just crop (mask) these.

Edit2: The yellow is oversaturated and creates out of gamuts. You can address this in post with something like (also improving the white balance):

ColorYUV(cont_u=-80)

as you suggested, it turned out that switching to Amarec has significantly improved the stability of the capture in terms of dropped and inserted frames. At least with my current setup and for this particular section of the tape (USB Live2 and JVC).

Also, for this particular section of the tape setting the TBC to OFF was beneficial, as it removed the vertical flickering and the noise at the top also looks improved (although I generally keep TBC ON).

I’ve attached capture 8. I also slightly reduced (just a little bit!) the saturation because, as you pointed out, red and yellow were too high. Thanks!

I’m really starting to understand how much care and how many different combinations of settings are required to properly handle these analog signals!

[Sharc]

Yes, the inserted duplicates are gone in Cap_8, and levels look reasonable. I think you are on track now and good to go for post processing like deinterlacing etc. for your personal preference.

Make sure you are using a high quality S-Video cable. I think I spotted some ants in the saturated yellow which may have been caused by chroma->luma spillover. As the tapes are dupes and composite has been involved earlier in the history these ants/hatches may be remnants from earlier composite artefacts burned into the tape though.

[rgr]

Cap7: You got 2 bad inserted frames (77, 131) for whatever reason (compensation of earlier drops? A/V sync issues?)
Vdub experts may comment on your timing settings. I would suggest to try AmarecTV as an alternative.

Edit: The glitches/flagging at the top may have been burned into the tapes when making the copies/transfers. As it is few lines only you may want to just crop (mask) these.

Edit2: The yellow is oversaturated and creates out of gamuts. You can address this in post with something like (also improving the white balance):

ColorYUV(cont_u=-80)

as you suggested, it turned out that switching to Amarec has significantly improved the stability of the capture in terms of dropped and inserted frames. At least with my current setup and for this particular section of the tape (USB Live2 and JVC).

You're using an archived version of VirtualDub; it's definitely better to use x64.

Here are the VD settings that gave me a perfect 0 drops and 0 inserts with a setup similar to yours (TBC on):
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/416658-Nero-Video-Grabber-vs-Hauppauge-WinTV-USBli...e2#post2778534

VirtualDub has a real-time histogram, it's worth using it.

AmarecTV dropped frames in every configuration (even though it didn't report it), so I wouldn't recommend it.

[Alwyn]

I suggest you add the Camcorder Color DeNoiser (CCD) filter in VDub; it will remove most of the very faint rainbows; most evident in the dark grey tiles/pavers.

Just plop the appropriate (32 or 64) VDF file in your VDub 32 or 64 plugins folder. Set the slider control to maximum.

[lollo]

AmarecTV dropped frames in every configuration (even though it didn't report it), so I wouldn't recommend it.

That's false.

To OP: because you are also using a commercial source, you can easily verify the quality of the captures comparing them with the same program available in other formats, for instance DVD or similar in term of AmarecTV captured/inserted/missing frames and its log file.