Help with possible Dot crawl & rainbowing during capture

[HansensUniverse]

Hi, i am curious on getting some feedback regarding an issue i have with two out of three of my capture card, someone suggested it might be dot crawl and rainbowing, but dot crawl to my understanding is pretty rare on PAL and much more common on NTSC, i have actually spent a lot of time trying to resolve the issue bu swapping cables, trying several working VCRs, different capture software, different device settings, i have tried all sorts of videocassettes, different USB ports, i have reinstalled the USB drivers, and it still persists no matter how i pry on this issue i am not able to resolve it, i just find it strange how one of my capture devices does not have this issue while the other two does, they're all from different manufacturers, and they're certainly not the cheapest either, was wondering if this issue can be solved other than using another capture device? I have attached a link to a sample video that shows just how insanely bad it is. Especially the green vertical artifacts that keeps flashing, it's the worst where the luminance is strong with high contrast and color.

I had a capture device from PINNACLE which produces these artifacts and one from Hauppauge

Link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xNCVyNbGbPXpbZHkSXcQNk2o-CKq1K_W/view?usp=sharing

And strictly speaking i have yet to come across anything on the internet that looks similar, seems like i have a very special case of severe artifacting as i couldn't find anyone else with this issue.

[lollo]

If the Hauppauge is the USB-Live 2, you should only use it providing a Y/C signal, because its comb filter is not good; capturing from composite input may introduce dot crawl and rainbowing

[HansensUniverse]

If the Hauppauge is the USB-Live 2, you should only use it providing a Y/C signal, because its comb filter is not good; capturing from composite input may introduce dot crawl and rainbowing

What capture device would you recommend that one can realistically purchase in 2022? I am aware of the advantage with older capture cards from way back in the early 2000s and with an in line TBC but they're just way way out of reach sadly, i was looking at the Blackmagic intensity shuttle but it seems like it needs a really near perfect signal based on what people have told, so a good in line TBC is needed which again complicated things as it's so difficult to find one, even the old DVD recorders that have TBCs are so hard to find now, at least in my country, what do i capture with?

[lollo]

If your VCR does not have a lineTBC you can use an ES-10 or ES-15 as passthrough and supply the Hauppauge USB Live-2 with Y/C input. User Sharc uses this approach with good results, search his posts...

edit: if you do not find a Panasonic, you shouuld then search for a JVC/Panasonic VCR with lineTBC, but it is even more diffficult to find in good shape at reasonable price...
I am not expert on capturing from composite, so I cannot suggest a good, and probably old card, working better with it. Some other user may help you here

[HansensUniverse]

If your VCR does not have a lineTBC you can use an ES-10 or ES-15 as passthrough and supply the Hauppauge USB Live-2 with Y/C input. User Sharc uses this approach with good results, search his posts...

edit: if you do not find a Panasonic, you should then search for a JVC/Panasonic VCR with lineTBC, but it is even more diffficult to find in good shape at reasonable price...
I am not expert on capturing from composite, so I cannot suggest a good, and probably old card, working better with it. Some other user may help you here

I have actually read about those specific units, can't find them anywhere in Scandinavia for that matter, so no luck there, there are only much recent models which are not recommended, also, what do i use to capture audio with? I have heard someone talk about using two different capture devices, one for audio and one for video to ease the load, my VCRs does not have S-video out so i am stuck with composite.

While they're not the best models they're pretty decent, actually one of them is a Panasonic unit with 6 heads, my main unit Is by Sony, SLV series, from the early 2000s, DVD & VCR combo unit, they all produce crisp none jittery image but that lack of TBC really sucks now, good units for playback on TV but perhaps not very well suited for recording VHS.

[lollo]

If the capture card allows, use it for capturing audio/video together. There is no relation between "ease the load" and the video artifacts.
If you switch to an old card to perform better with composite input, many models will force you to capture audio with another device (i.e. ATI All In Wonder paired with a Sound card running on Windows XP)

[lollo]

my main unit Is by Sony, SLV series

With a Sony SLV and a passthrough some user recently posted good captures

[HansensUniverse]

If the capture card allows, use it for capturing audio/video together. There is no relation between "ease the load" and the video artifacts.
If you switch to an old card to perform better with composite input, many models will force you to capture audio with another device (i.e. ATI All In Wonder paired with a Sound card running on Windows XP)

Right, damn, too bad there no businesses digitizing tapes locally, 2022 is a time period that really sucks doing this kind of work, i do not like the cookie cutter approach but it seems like there are practically no choice anymore, and it's going to be even worse with time, i wish there could be something that was produced with this task in mind but produced with good quality comb filters, if i were to guess Elgato amongst many others probably use the same cheap hardware inside their capture units and you pay for the brand.

[Sharc]

Yes, if your VCR has an S-video output you should connect the Hauppauge to the VCR via S-video, not via composite.
If not, use a DVD videorecorder in passthrough: VCR composite (or SCART) out -> DVD recorder composite in -> DVD recorder S-video out -> Hauppauge USB-live2 S-video in.
You can try with a DVD recorder which you may already have, otherwise Panasonic DMR ES10, ES15, E20, EH50 have been recommended. You may find one on e-bay or similar. The HDD or DVD drive need not even work for the passthrough application.
Your capture also shows 'flagging' (picture is bent backwards on the top). A DVD recorder in passthrough will fix this as well.
You can find a lot of posts and threads about appropriate capturing configurations in this forum.

[HansensUniverse]

Yes, if your VCR has an S-video output you should connect the Hauppauge to the VCR via S-video, not via composite.
If not, use a DVD videorecorder in passthrough: VCR composite (or SCART) out -> DVD recorder composite in -> DVD recorder S-video out -> Hauppauge USB-live2 S-video in.
You can try with a DVD recorder which you may already have, otherwise Panasonic DMR ES10, ES15, E20, EH50 have been recommended. You may find one on e-bay or similar. The HDD or DVD drive need not even work for the passthrough application.
Your capture also shows 'flagging' (picture is bent backwards on the top). A DVD recorder in passthrough will fix this as well.
You can find a lot of posts and threads about appropriate capturing configurations in this forum.

Thanks, so i guess that shifts the game more from finding another capture device to finding something i can passthrough the signal, i'll list the recorders i see on the market here in Norway and maybe some of them will help, seems to be my best bet at this point in time.

[jagabo]

Dot crawl is always an issue with composite capture NTSC and PAL. The best devices have a 3d comb filter but even those will allow some dot crawl through. The good news is that the resolution of VHS tape is so low you can almost completely eliminate it without hurting the video much by simply blurring the video horizontally. That can be done with an explicit horizontal blur filter or by resizing to about half width, then back to the original width.

[Sharc]

Dot crawl is always an issue with composite capture NTSC and PAL. The best devices have a 3d comb filter but even those will allow some dot crawl through. The good news is that the resolution of VHS tape is so low you can almost completely eliminate it without hurting the video much by simply blurring the video horizontally. That can be done with an explicit horizontal blur filter or by resizing to about half width, then back to the original width.

Yes I tried the trick with blurring horizontally and resizing down and up. It's just too heavy with his clip. The levels are off the kilter as well. Maybe it's more than just dotcrawl?

[HansensUniverse]

Dot crawl is always an issue with composite capture NTSC and PAL. The best devices have a 3d comb filter but even those will allow some dot crawl through. The good news is that the resolution of VHS tape is so low you can almost completely eliminate it without hurting the video much by simply blurring the video horizontally. That can be done with an explicit horizontal blur filter or by resizing to about half width, then back to the original width.

Yes I tried the trick with blurring horizontally and resizing down and up. It's just too heavy with his clip. The levels are off the kilter as well. Maybe it's more than just dotcrawl?

Yeah it's really really bad, worse than anything I've ever seen, the Elgato video capture does not produce anything like what you see in this sample however it tends to stutter a little, it doesn't happen too often but i would like to have a capture that doesn't look like it does in the sample but also doesn't stutter and micro freezes, i would have to trade one for the other.

[Sharc]

I had a similar bad case with one PAL tape some time ago. The scene was an oversaturated blue sky. The passthrough configuration solved the issue basically. I still had to shift the levels to stay within the TV luma range and avoid out-of-gamut RGB values as much reasonable. I did this partially by means of proc amp adjustments and partially in post processing. The result was not perfect but at least 'watchable' so that people wouldn't complain.
I don't know the Elgato USB capture device and SW, but from what you describe it seems to have a better filter for separating luma from chroma than the Hauppauge USB-live2, but it looks to me the problem is also with the source (tape) itself.

[HansensUniverse]

I had a similar bad case with one PAL tape some time ago. The scene was an oversaturated blue sky. The passthrough configuration solved the issue basically. I still had to shift the levels to stay within the TV luma range and avoid out-of-gamut RGB values as much reasonable. I did this partially by means of proc amp adjustments and partially in post processing. The result was not perfect but at least 'watchable' so that people wouldn't complain.
I don't know the Elgato USB capture device and SW, but from what you describe it seems to have a better filter for separating luma from chroma than the Hauppauge USB-live2, but it looks to me the problem is also with the source (tape) itself.

The tape it self does have some damage, certainly, i have already digitized this very tape already with pretty good results without any of the heavy artifacting, there is a bit of banding and such from time to time which i am fine with as it is an old tape, i will try another run someday if i come across something i can use as a passthrough.

[jagabo]

Composite video has a low frequency amplitude modulated luma (greyscale) signal mixed with a high frequency chroma carrier (a sinusoidal whose amplitude represents the saturation of the color and phase represents the hue). The two have to be separated in order to interpret the brightness and color. Dot crawl is incomplete removal of the high frequence chroma carrier from the luma, resulting in bright/dark dots. Rainbow artifacts result from high frequency luma components leaking into the chroma carrier. Using s-video cables prevents this crosstalk because the luma and chroma are sent on separate wires.

You have terrible time base problems. When the time base is clean the captured picture is also pretty clean. But when the time base is bad the filter that separates the luma and chroma carrier fails. So the chroma carrier becomes visible as those bright and dark dots. And colors get all wonky as the phase of the carrier is no longer correct. As has been mentioned, a line time base corrector may fix the problem. Another thing that may help is to fast forward the tape all the way to the end then rewind it all the back to the beginning. That can smooth out the windings of the tape reducing friction and hence making it easier for the player to move the tape smoothly.

[HansensUniverse]

Composite video has a low frequency amplitude modulated luma (greyscale) signal mixed with a high frequency chroma carrier (a sinusoidal whose amplitude represents the saturation of the color and phase represents the hue). The two have to be separated in order to interpret the brightness and color. Dot crawl is incomplete removal of the high frequence chroma carrier from the luma, resulting in bright/dark dots. Rainbow artifacts result from high frequency luma components leaking into the chroma carrier. Using s-video cables prevents this crosstalk because the luma and chroma are sent on separate wires.

You have terrible time base problems. When the time base is clean the captured picture is also pretty clean. But when the time base is bad the filter that separates the luma and chroma carrier fails. So the chroma carrier becomes visible as those bright and dark dots. And colors get all wonky as the phase of the carrier is no longer correct. As has been mentioned, a line time base corrector may fix the problem. Another thing that may help is to fast forward the tape all the way to the end then rewind it all the back to the beginning. That can smooth out the windings of the tape reducing friction and hence making it easier for the player to move the tape smoothly.

Thanks, i am hunting for a passthrough now, see if i can find a good used DVD recorder, i actually read about winding the tape all the way forward or rewinding it depending on what you start with to smooth it out a bit, i also use the slow rewind instead of the fast one, much easier on the tape & the mechanisms.

[HansensUniverse]

Composite video has a low frequency amplitude modulated luma (greyscale) signal mixed with a high frequency chroma carrier (a sinusoidal whose amplitude represents the saturation of the color and phase represents the hue). The two have to be separated in order to interpret the brightness and color. Dot crawl is incomplete removal of the high frequence chroma carrier from the luma, resulting in bright/dark dots. Rainbow artifacts result from high frequency luma components leaking into the chroma carrier. Using s-video cables prevents this crosstalk because the luma and chroma are sent on separate wires.

You have terrible time base problems. When the time base is clean the captured picture is also pretty clean. But when the time base is bad the filter that separates the luma and chroma carrier fails. So the chroma carrier becomes visible as those bright and dark dots. And colors get all wonky as the phase of the carrier is no longer correct. As has been mentioned, a line time base corrector may fix the problem. Another thing that may help is to fast forward the tape all the way to the end then rewind it all the back to the beginning. That can smooth out the windings of the tape reducing friction and hence making it easier for the player to move the tape smoothly.

I tried the Scart ports on all of my VCRs using the Scart to composite & S-video adapter, hoping some of them were wired to output chroma on S-video but no luck there either, only got black & white since they're all wired for luminance...

[jagabo]

If you want a graphic example of the chroma carrier, I posted this a while back:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/399085-Color-Blending-Post-Encoding/page2#post2597835

[Sharc]

I tried the Scart ports on all of my VCRs using the Scart to composite & S-video adapter, hoping some of them were wired to output chroma on S-video but no luck there either, only got black & white since they're all wired for luminance...

That's unfortunately the case with many VCRs. The SCART connector makes only the composite video available (wired). The VCR manual should clarify whether the VCR supports S-video or not, and on which connectors.

Attached a write-up about Video Comb filters. It is written for NTSC but the principle is similar for PAL.