Multiple questions about HD video capture (broadcast, Happauge, Tivo)

[jpt85]

Rather than make several threads, I have one gigantic thread with numerous questions about capturing High Definition video streams:

1) From what I can gather, the ability to capture High Definition video streams in their native format is impossible, unless capturing "clear QAM" broadcasts, correct? If one does capture a clear QAM stream, what format is it in, MPEG transport, or something else?

2) It appears that the only way to capture any High Definition content and keep it anywhere close to its native format, is to capture it using component video connections with a video capture card, correct?

3) It is impossible to digitally transfer any High Definition video from a DVR to a computer or Blu-ray disc, in a lossless transfer without the introduction of an analog generation, correct?

4) I have read that the files on the hard drive of a DVR are digitally encrypted and impossible to crack, correct?

5) Are there any "hacks" that would enable someone to get the original, unmolested, HD content off of a DVR, legally?

6) What is the best way to record and transfer DRM HD content to a permanent, retrievable, transferrable, copyable format, like Blu-ray, etc.? From my research, it appears that the only way is with the Hauppauge series of capture cards/ PVR's. Are there other solutions, as well? Which is the best solution to get the highest video quality at a resolution and format closest to the original broadcast?

7) If using any of these capture cards/PVR's, like the Hauppauage, is there any way to record the audio portion, losslessly, i.e. no AC-3 encoding?

8) If using any of the new TIVO DVR's, is there any way to transfer the HD content to a hard drive on a computer? I'm specifically referring to unencrypted, "clear QAM" broadcasts for this question, as I'm pretty sure that it can't be done with DRM HD material.

I know we have a lot of broadcast professionals and engineers that frequent here, and if you happen to answer any of these questions, I would be very grateful for your time to respond to them!

Thanks!

[jagabo]

Clear QAM is usually captured as MPEG TS or PS.

Read: http://www.curtpalme.com/MUX-HD.shtm

[freebird73717]

To answer number 8
Yes you can transfer the recorded show to a computer using kmttg or tivodesktop. The advantage of using kmttg is that it also decodes the .tivo file to a mpeg file. You can't do much with a .tivo file except watch it on your computer. But after you decode the .tivo to .mpg you can do pretty much whatever you want with it.

[jpt85]

To answer number 8
Yes you can transfer the recorded show to a computer using kmttg or tivodesktop. The advantage of using kmttg is that it also decodes the .tivo file to a mpeg file. You can't do much with a .tivo file except watch it on your computer. But after you decode the .tivo to .mpg you can do pretty much whatever you want with it.

Does that work with HD video sources as well? I knew you could do that with SD material, but I saw conflicting answers as to whether it works with "clear QAM" HD sources. Have you actually done it?

[freebird73717]

I have a tivo HD and transfer over the air HD shows all the time to my computer. I don't have cable so I can't comment on the "clear QAM" part. What I can say is that a tivo will allow transfering any content to a computer as long as it is not protected with any DRM. So as long as "clear QAM" channels are unencrypted then you should be able to transfer them. However as I said, I only get my tv from HD over the air via an antenna on my roof.

You might check at www.tivocommunity.com forums for more detaled information about tivo hd and clear qam.

[jpt85]

I have a tivo HD and transfer over the air HD shows all the time to my computer. I don't have cable so I can't comment on the "clear QAM" part. What I can say is that a tivo will allow transfering any content to a computer as long as it is not protected with any DRM. So as long as "clear QAM" channels are unencrypted then you should be able to transfer them. However as I said, I only get my tv from HD over the air via an antenna on my roof.

You might check at www.tivocommunity.com forums for more detaled information about tivo hd and clear qam.

Ah, thanks for the verification freebird, that's what I needed to hear!

Now, I just have 6 more questions to get answered!

[newpath]

I am not a broadcast engineer so take my comments for what they are worth, a caveat that should apply to all forums, especially this one.

Addressing questions 1, 2, and 7, you should define what you mean by "native format." My guess is that you mean how "good" it looks and sounds to you. In any event, if you mean the format in which the original video/audio material was recorded (film or digital), then in no way will you ever see that "native format." It is important to note that no matter what the source of your signal, satellite, cable, or OTA, the original recording(s) has been re-encoded to reduce file size and bitrate, allowing broadcasters to maximize the use of their available bandwidth. However, if you mean format of the broadcast signal, then it is quite possible to capture this "native format." The easiest example is OTA recording. I use a Hauppauge HD PVR connected to my satellite box and an AverMedia M780 Combo card connected to my antenna. The M780 card accepts the ATSC signal from the antenna which is completely digital. Consequently, the M780 does not "post-process" the video/audio, but simply passes it along to be written to my hard drive. Applying the above definitions, I consider this "native format" because it has not been touched (re-encoded) by the card. In using the HD PVR to record analog output from the satellite box, the HD PVR re-encodes the video to H.264 and the audio to AC3 (my settings). I have no idea what the "native format" of the original satellite signal is, keeping in mind that I am speaking of commercial satellite broadcasting. In this instance, the HD PVR captures could not be considered "native format." It is possible, however, that the HD PVR recordings are not noticeably different than whatever the native format was.

To partially address questions 3 and 4, keep in mind I am speaking of a proprietary satellite HD DVR and have no experience with the TIVO. You are correct, the recordings on the satellite DVR are encrypted and cannot be transferred. The OS in the satellite box is a modified form of Linux/Unix, but even attempts to connect the satellite box hard drive to a Linux-based computer have failed to retrieve the files there-on. In addition, the "analog hole" does not appear to be open as I have connected my satellite box to my Hauppauge HD PVR via component connections. While I was able to play recordings on my computer, the subsequent HD PVR recordings on my hard drive were all black screened. I know of no hack to get around this, but others may respond here and prove me wrong.

[edDV]

1. Also from ASTC tuners and Firewire off HD cable tuners.
File format is usually a MPeg2 program stream (e.g. a single MPeg2 video + AC3 audio)

2. If you can't do #1.

3. DVR video is encrypted on disc and protected with HDCP from DVI or HDMI.

4. I'm sure the NSA could do it.

Re: newpath

The broadcasters usually recode the higher bit rate network feed just before they mux the ATSC broadcast signal. The final ATSC or DVB mux contains one to many subchannels. Cable and sat are now re-encoding sat uplinks with statistical multiplexing (VBR across several channels) to squeeze in more channels per transponder. Local cable companies often recode again.

The HD PVR takes source from analog component, then hardware encodes to H.264.

[jpt85]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Just to clarify/reiterate, let me make sure I understand this correctly.

So what you all are telling me is that for a "non-clear QAM" channel, it is impossible to record to a high definition format of any kind that will be transferrable to either a computer or optical disc? Is this correct?

I had thought that the Hauppauge PVR and other capture cards could capture encrypted QAM signals, but that it would just be in the analog domain. Is my assumption false?

[edDV]

Thanks for the replies everyone. Just to clarify/reiterate, let me make sure I understand this correctly.

So what you all are telling me is that for a "non-clear QAM" channel, it is impossible to record to a high definition format of any kind that will be transferrable to either a computer or optical disc? Is this correct?

I had thought that the Hauppauge PVR and other capture cards could capture encrypted QAM signals, but that it would just be in the analog domain. Is my assumption false?

You can "capture" the unencrypted live digital stream in several ways

1. ATSC tuner -> the ATSC subchannel is demuxed to a program stream to a file (no local loss).

2. ClearQAM tuner -> the unencrypted QAM subchannel is demuxed to a program stream to a file (no local loss).

3. Direct IEEE-1394 program stream capture off the HD cable box. Channels available are determined by the cable company. Many are blocked but you can usually get more than just the clearQAM channels.

Those three options get you the transmitted program stream with no loss. Most cable and sat systems do not allow digital transfer from a DVR recorded program. The Hauppauge HD-PVR box captures off the analog component output from the cable box then re-digitizes and encodes to h.264.

A typical computer digital TV tuner card like the Hauppauge HVR series has an ATSC tuner for over the air, a ClearQAM tuner for cable and can capture analog composite or S-Video off a cable box. The analog input is encoded to standard definition MPeg2.

[jagabo]

So what you all are telling me is that for a "non-clear QAM" channel, it is impossible to record to a high definition format of any kind that will be transferrable to either a computer or optical disc? Is this correct?

No. The Hauppauge HD PVR will record component input at 720p60 or 1080i30. It will ignore any CGMA flags. Of course, the HD PVR can be rendered useless if the component outputs are ever disabled by the cable/sat company.

As I pointed out in my first post, with the Mux-HD and an HDMI capture device you can record any HDMI signal. The Mux-HD can be killed too if the keys it is using are ever black listed.

[jpt85]

So what you all are telling me is that for a "non-clear QAM" channel, it is impossible to record to a high definition format of any kind that will be transferrable to either a computer or optical disc? Is this correct?

No. The Hauppauge HD PVR will record component input at 720p60 or 1080i30. It will ignore any CGMA flags. Of course, the HD PVR can be rendered useless if the component outputs are ever disabled by the cable/sat company.

As I pointed out in my first post, with the Mux-HD and an HDMI capture device you can record any HDMI signal. The Mux-HD can be killed too if the keys it is using are ever black listed.

Thanks for that clarification jagabo. So, you can indeed record encrypted HD video with the Hauppauge HD PVR. It sounds like it is totally dependent on whether the component outputs are disabled by the set top box. It they are not, you can record HD. I was confused because of this earlier statement by newpath:

In addition, the "analog hole" does not appear to be open as I have connected my satellite box to my Hauppauge HD PVR via component connections. While I was able to play recordings on my computer, the subsequent HD PVR recordings on my hard drive were all black screened. I know of no hack to get around this, but others may respond here and prove me wrong.

In newpath's instance, it sounds like his satellite box has disabled component connections, hence no recording HD video on the Hauppauge PVR.

I have nearly all of my questions answered, except for the following 2:

1) Can someone verify that TIVO has NOT disabled the component "out" connections on their latest DVR's, thus allowing recording of encrypted HD video signals by the Hauppage PVR?

As I pointed out in my first post, with the Mux-HD and an HDMI capture device you can record any HDMI signal. The Mux-HD can be killed too if the keys it is using are ever black listed.

2) What is the advantage of using the Mux-HD?

Am I interpreting the advantage of this machine correctly? It is different because it allows 2 HDMI sources to be connected with one of them NOT being HDCP compliant? So, this allows an intermediary in between the two sources such as an HDMI capture device to be connected and "intercept" the normally encrypted signal, correct? So, it sounds like if one were to use the Mux-HD, one could indeed capture the true digitial HD stream and not an analog-induced version via component cable which would normally be the case, otherwise. Is this correct?


Thanks everyone for their inputs, it's greatly appreciated!

[freebird73717]

I have my tivo HD connected to my tv via the component cables.

[jagabo]

Thanks for that clarification jagabo. So, you can indeed record encrypted HD video with the Hauppauge HD PVR. It sounds like it is totally dependent on whether the component outputs are disabled by the set top box. It they are not, you can record HD. I was confused because of this earlier statement by newpath:

In addition, the "analog hole" does not appear to be open as I have connected my satellite box to my Hauppauge HD PVR via component connections. While I was able to play recordings on my computer, the subsequent HD PVR recordings on my hard drive were all black screened. I know of no hack to get around this, but others may respond here and prove me wrong.

Many devices will not output component video and HDMI at the same time. Maybe he was watching on a TV via HDMI and trying to record from the component outputs? I don't know any other reason it wouldn't have worked.

As I pointed out in my first post, with the Mux-HD and an HDMI capture device you can record any HDMI signal. The Mux-HD can be killed too if the keys it is using are ever black listed.

2) What is the advantage of using the Mux-HD?

The Mux-HD is marketed as a way for non HDCP compliant TVs to watch HDCP protected material. A byproduct of this is that it allows HDCP protected HDMI sources to be recorded. A 100 percent digital path between the source and capture device avoids the degradation of a digital to analog to digital conversion. But the HD PVR is quality is very good from the component connection and it's much more cost effective.

[edDV]

To my knowledge, no cable companies have blocked analog component. I'm not sure it is legal per FCC mandates before 2012. They are trying to discontinue cable boxes with analog component out in favor of boxes that don't. They call this the "analog hole" in their security.

You are confusing me because you said you wanted a "native" digital transfer. Analog component is not digital.

You also said "legal". Products like Mux-HD have questionable legality.

Restate your wants.

[jpt85]

To my knowledge, no cable companies have blocked analog component. I'm not sure it is legal per FCC mandates before 2012. They are trying to discontinue cable boxes with analog component out in favor of boxes that don't. They call this the "analog hole" in their security.

You are confusing me because you said you wanted a "native" digital transfer. Analog component is not digital.

You also said "legal". Products like Mux-HD have questionable legality.

Restate your wants.

All my questions are answered. Sorry if I used the incorrect terms above, but I got all the information I needed.

Thanks!

[edDV]

To my knowledge, no cable companies have blocked analog component. I'm not sure it is legal per FCC mandates before 2012. They are trying to discontinue cable boxes with analog component out in favor of boxes that don't. They call this the "analog hole" in their security.

You are confusing me because you said you wanted a "native" digital transfer. Analog component is not digital.

You also said "legal". Products like Mux-HD have questionable legality.

Restate your wants.

All my questions are answered. Sorry if I used the incorrect terms above, but I got all the information I needed.

Thanks!

So what did you decide to do?

[jpt85]

To my knowledge, no cable companies have blocked analog component. I'm not sure it is legal per FCC mandates before 2012. They are trying to discontinue cable boxes with analog component out in favor of boxes that don't. They call this the "analog hole" in their security.

You are confusing me because you said you wanted a "native" digital transfer. Analog component is not digital.

You also said "legal". Products like Mux-HD have questionable legality.

Restate your wants.

All my questions are answered. Sorry if I used the incorrect terms above, but I got all the information I needed.

Thanks!

So what did you decide to do?

I am going to buy the Tivo Premiere to record and timeshift HD content, while using the Haupauage PVR to make a permanent, transferable copy to Blu-ray/DVD on.

[edDV]

To my knowledge, no cable companies have blocked analog component. I'm not sure it is legal per FCC mandates before 2012. They are trying to discontinue cable boxes with analog component out in favor of boxes that don't. They call this the "analog hole" in their security.

You are confusing me because you said you wanted a "native" digital transfer. Analog component is not digital.

You also said "legal". Products like Mux-HD have questionable legality.

Restate your wants.

All my questions are answered. Sorry if I used the incorrect terms above, but I got all the information I needed.

Thanks!

So what did you decide to do?

I am going to buy the Tivo Premiere to record and timeshift HD content, while using the Haupauage PVR to make a permanent, transferable copy to Blu-ray/DVD on.

That should work.

You will have difficulty playing the h.264 files on your current computer. The files will transfer but you will have problems playing or editing them with a P4 2.8.

Blu-Ray playback requires h.264 file conversion to AVCHD format (most Blu-Ray players).

I suggest an external media player if you don't want to upgrade the computer.

[jagabo]

You will have difficulty playing the h.264 files on your current computer. The files will transfer but you will have problems playing or editing them with a P4 2.8.

I suspect he's upgraded. But just to be clear: You need either a dual core (not single core with hyperthreading) CPU or a graphics card with hardware h.264 decoding to play files from the HD PVR. If you don't have those you can still capture with the HD PVR but you have to disable the display of the video while capturing.

[jpt85]

To my knowledge, no cable companies have blocked analog component. I'm not sure it is legal per FCC mandates before 2012. They are trying to discontinue cable boxes with analog component out in favor of boxes that don't. They call this the "analog hole" in their security.

You are confusing me because you said you wanted a "native" digital transfer. Analog component is not digital.

You also said "legal". Products like Mux-HD have questionable legality.

Restate your wants.

All my questions are answered. Sorry if I used the incorrect terms above, but I got all the information I needed.

Thanks!

So what did you decide to do?

I am going to buy the Tivo Premiere to record and timeshift HD content, while using the Haupauage PVR to make a permanent, transferable copy to Blu-ray/DVD on.

That should work.

You will have difficulty playing the h.264 files on your current computer. The files will transfer but you will have problems playing or editing them with a P4 2.8.

Blu-Ray playback requires h.264 file conversion to AVCHD format (most Blu-Ray players).

I suggest an external media player if you don't want to upgrade the computer.

That's the easy part. I just needed to find out how to get the files to my hard drive. I have about 7 years experience working with Vegas as an NLE, so once I get it in my computer it's all downhill from there. I have a fast modern, 4 core, 8 GB ram computer, so playback won't be an issue. I can convert any video format to any format within Vegas Pro 9 - which I have.

BTW, ignore my computer specs for my profile - I haven't updated that in over 5 years!

[freebird73717]

You will absolutely love your new tivo. Look into pytivo to turn your tivo into a media server. It's wonderful.

[jpt85]

You will absolutely love your new tivo. Look into pytivo to turn your tivo into a media server. It's wonderful.

Thanks, I'll look into that. I'm going to the store tomorrow to go buy it. I'm really looking forward to getting it as I've used nothing but a VCR for the last 25 years to record t.v.

[stevon111]

It is not illegal to record legally purchased HD content for personal use. MUX-HD device is not illegal but may break the agreement to honor DRM rights when using US market HDMI and DVI interfaces . You can not go to jail selling this device but you could be open to lawsuits from Hollywood putting your company in the US out of bussiness. A bussiness wants to make money and not loose it later in court! TIVO went to FCC to fight AT&T and others to allow HD content use with their HD TIVO boxes. It was probably cheaper and quicker to go that route than sue every cable company.

There is law in the US called “fair use” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use and the “Audio Home Recording Act of 1992” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Home_Recording_Act That allows anyone to copy for personal use legally purchased content.

To my knowledge, no cable companies have blocked analog component. I'm not sure it is legal per FCC mandates before 2012. They are trying to discontinue cable boxes with analog component out in favor of boxes that don't. They call this the "analog hole" in their security.

You are confusing me because you said you wanted a "native" digital transfer. Analog component is not digital.

You also said "legal". Products like Mux-HD have questionable legality.

Restate your wants.

All my questions are answered. Sorry if I used the incorrect terms above, but I got all the information I needed.

Thanks!

[edDV]

How are we supposed to answer when you feed us bogus?

[jagabo]

MUX-HD device is not illegal

As far as I can tell it has been "disappeared" from the US market. Places like Monoprice and Curt Palme no longer list it.

[stevon111]

Your'e right not to beleive me check it out! http://stream-recorder.com/forum/legal-record-video-streams-can-considered-piracy-t2036.html I own a MUX-HD, a great little device for sure. What is your system like? How do you capture cable provided HD TV?

[stevon111]

It is available just not in the US, you have to send away for one. $285.00 so it aint cheap but was worth it for me not to do digital to analog and back to digital again for storage. Can PM you if your interested

[jagabo]

I own a MUX-HD, a great little device for sure.

But no longer available for sale in the USA. Even Moome no longer lists it or any other HDMI+HDCP-->HDMI strippers.

[stevon111]

Yeah, I don't know how long it takes to get here from China but you can still buy it if it's worth your trouble. For most it seems not worth it. They are sold also in other countries and the new version MUX-FHD doesn't split off the audio from HDMI, sound will go through HDMI out. Didn't feel like waiting, toslink out is OK for my use.