Some ghosting on part of render with Sony Vegas

[sevenofone]

JUst done my first editing project, a film montage and have some ghosting, or what I perceive as ghosting on a couple of clips. The first two clips, and a third one at 40 seconds in. All from same original movie which was 720p HD .avi file. The rest seems ok. I rendered as Sony AVC .MP4 with 1280x720-25p internet template. Not sure why, any ideas?

Here's a link if anyone can help http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcZqmXNSLLU

[Munster1]

Can you post the MediaInfo text for the movie file that seems to be causing the problem? Not sure I'll be able spot the issue, but anyone else here who can help will probably need you to.

It might be be also helpful to post the MediaInfo for one of the files that isn't causing an issue.

[manono]

There's a ton of ghosting. I take it the 'source' AVI isn't 25fps. And if it isn't, why on earth did you decide to convert the YouTube one to 25fps?

[sevenofone]

HI, thanks for the reply. I assume you're just talking about the clips I mentioned rather than others as well for ghosting? Here is the detail for my video, and also the kick ass source video if it helps. I used those settings for YouTube upload as recommended by another video website. Forgive me if the detail is not helpful below, it's the first time I've used the media info software.. The first list is the you tube vid, the second is the source file that the ghosted clips come from..

my video info :

General
Complete name : candy killers 1.0.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42
File size : 417 MiB
Duration : 8mn 12s
Overall bit rate : 7 105 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2011-02-24 21:00:44
Tagged date : UTC 2011-02-24 21:00:44

Video
ID : 2
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.0
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 2 frames
Format settings, GOP : M=2, N=13
Muxing mode : Container profile=Baseline@3.1
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 8mn 12s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 6 972 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 16.0 Mbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 25.000 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.303
Stream size : 409 MiB (98%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2011-02-24 21:00:44
Tagged date : UTC 2011-02-24 21:00:44

Audio
ID : 1
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 8mn 11s
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 128 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 7.51 MiB (2%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2011-02-24 21:00:44
Tagged date : UTC 2011-02-24 21:00:44

Source video:

General
Complete name : Kick-Ass (2010) BRRip XvidHD 720p-NPW\Kick-Ass.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
Format profile : OpenDML
File size : 2.97 GiB
Duration : 1h 57mn
Overall bit rate : 3 616 Kbps
Writing application : VirtualDubMod 1.5.10.2 (build 2540/release)
Writing library : VirtualDubMod build 2540/release

Video
ID : 0
Format : MPEG-4 Visual
Format profile : Advanced Simple@L5
Format settings, BVOP : 1
Format settings, QPel : No
Format settings, GMC : No warppoints
Format settings, Matrix : Default (H.263)
Codec ID : XVID
Codec ID/Hint : XviD
Duration : 1h 57mn
Bit rate : 2 965 Kbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 536 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 2.35:1
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.180
Stream size : 2.44 GiB (82%)
Writing library : XviD 1.2.0.dev47 (UTC 2006-11-01)

Audio
ID : 1
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 2000
Duration : 1h 57mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 640 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 539 MiB (18%)
Alignment : Split accross interleaves
Interleave, duration : 42 ms (1.00 video frame)
Interleave, preload duration : 500 ms

[manono]

I assume you're just talking about the clips I mentioned rather than others as well for ghosting?

I just was going by that YouTube mess which is ghosted all to hell. As I guessed, the source AVI is 23.976fps and the one you uploaded to YouTube is 25fps. Now go back and start over and make a 23.976fps one for upload. If it was a different site that said YouTube prefers 25fps uploads, they don't know what they're talking about.

[sevenofone]

Thanks for the constructive feedback. Everyone I have spoken with only sees ghosting on the clips I mentioned not the entire video so thanks for calling it a mess. I would be interested in other feedback regarding the overall quality as saying the whole thing is ghosted seems wrong. I don't think it is. Welcome to feedback though on render settings.

[jagabo]

At some point along the line the video was an out of phase interlaced PAL capture and someone ran a blend deinterlace rather than recombining the fields to the original film frames.

[manono]

Everyone I have spoken with only sees ghosting on the clips I mentioned not the entire video so thanks for calling it a mess.

Did they download it and advance a frame at a time?

You have the original. Why do you have to ask anyone at all when you can see it all yourself?

...as saying the whole thing is ghosted seems wrong.

It doesn't matter what it seems. It's what it is.

jagabo, the 'source' is 23.976fps. I figured it got the way it did in the process of converting it to 25fps. I don't use Sony's Vegas and don't know what methods it uses or has available for framerate conversions, but it looks similar, if not identical, to AviSynth's ConvertFPS(25). If it were just a deinterlaced out-of-phase PAL cap, all the frames would be blended, and they're not.

[sevenofone]

Ok, I like that, some definitive information there, thanks for the input. Could you give me an idea how to avoid that in the future and give some advice. I'm new to editing as you can tell and just want to do a better job...thanks

[jagabo]

manono, you're right. I'm pretty sure Vegas uses frame blending when it converts frame rates. If you watch the bicycle shot at about 9 seconds in, you can see it starts out with blended frames, slowly changes to clear frames, then back to blended frames. With roughly a 25 frame cycle. A sure sign of frame blended rate conversion from 23.976 fps to 25 fps.

[manono]

sevenofone, can you upload a small piece of the 23.976fps source you used to create the one for upload to YouTube? Pick a small 5 second section from a part that looks obviously blended in the YouTube one. One like the part between the 2 text screens between the 9 and 14 second marks.

I don't see all of it as being blended, just most of it, but you apparently used many different sources for this thing and just showed us the MediaInfo for one of them.

[sevenofone]

Thanks guys, here is a link to the file from that segment of the video: Sorry if I appear a bit dim on these posts, but just trying to improve and value your advice..

http://www.sendspace.com/file/u3q0mv


One thing also, I wasn't trying to be funny when I said the rest looked OK and not ghosted, when I play the original on my tv it looks fine apart from the clips I mentioned. I wasn't trying to be ungrateful for the help at all so I'm sorry if It came over that way..

[manono]

OK, that particular source is fine, and it's clear that the blending happened as a result of the framerate conversion in Vegas. My advice is to check all sources to make sure they all have the same framerate (23.976fps would be best), and then create your one for YouTube upload keeping that same framerate. There are ways to do the framerate conversions (from 23.976fps to 25fps) that don't involve blending, but if you're using Sony's Vegas I don't suppose the blending is avoidable. If using Vegas, mixing sources with differing framerates is just inviting trouble.

[sevenofone]

Thanks for looking at it. I'm going to do a lot more study on the Vegas rendering options.

I like montages (as I don't own a camera so it's my only option), so will have to face the multiple format/frame rate/size issue constantly it seems, but am determined to learn from my mistakes so I thank you for your input. I think I will look at each source clip a lot more closely from now on (this was my first effort, and first experience using a video editing package.. and if needed, do conversions necessary before using in the project to match output..

thanks so much

[jagabo]

There may be a way to get Vegas to duplicate frames rather than blend frames. That will give you jerky motion though.

[poisondeathray]

Yes there is; if you "disable resample", for the clips it will duplicate rather then blend for speed changes. It doesn't have the 3rd option of optical flow / motion interpolation

If the majority of the composition was 25fps and only short parts were native 23.976, I would do a PAL speedup for audio & video

[budwzr]

Try adding "Supersampling" to the video buss track, just in the areas you need it.

[sevenofone]

Hi, This morning I looked at a different source for the clip that was coming out ghosted and it renders a lot better. Before that I re-rendered using the 23.976 framerate and the source that came out ghosted. It still came out ghosted, so went with the change source option. What I don't get is when i look at media info on both sources I can't see why one would ghost and the other not. Any ideas?

the ghosting source as above:


General
Complete name : F:\Kick-Ass.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
Format profile : OpenDML
File size : 2.97 GiB
Duration : 1h 57mn
Overall bit rate : 3 616 Kbps
Writing application : VirtualDubMod 1.5.10.2 (build 2540/release)
Writing library : VirtualDubMod build 2540/release

Video
ID : 0
Format : MPEG-4 Visual
Format profile : Advanced Simple@L5
Format settings, BVOP : 1
Format settings, QPel : No
Format settings, GMC : No warppoints
Format settings, Matrix : Default (H.263)
Codec ID : XVID
Codec ID/Hint : XviD
Duration : 1h 57mn
Bit rate : 2 965 Kbps
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 536 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 2.35:1
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.180
Stream size : 2.44 GiB (82%)
Writing library : XviD 1.2.0.dev47 (UTC 2006-11-01)

Audio
ID : 1
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 2000
Duration : 1h 57mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 640 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 539 MiB (18%)
Alignment : Split accross interleaves
Interleave, duration : 42 ms (1.00 video frame)
Interleave, preload duration : 500 ms

And the new source that works ok:

General
Complete name : F: KA.avi
Format : AVI
Format/Info : Audio Video Interleave
File size : 1.37 GiB
Duration : 1h 57mn
Overall bit rate : 1 666 Kbps
Writing application : VirtualDubMod 1.5.10.3 | www.virtualdub-fr.org || (build 2550/release)
Writing library : VirtualDubMod build 2550/release

Video
ID : 0
Format : MPEG-4 Visual
Format profile : Advanced Simple@L5
Format settings, BVOP : 2
Format settings, QPel : No
Format settings, GMC : No warppoints
Format settings, Matrix : Default (H.263)
Muxing mode : Packed bitstream
Codec ID : XVID
Codec ID/Hint : XviD
Duration : 1h 57mn
Bit rate : 1 208 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 304 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 2.35:1
Frame rate : 23.976 fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.230
Stream size : 1 018 MiB (73%)
Writing library : XviD 1.2.1 (UTC 2008-12-04)

Audio
ID : 1
Format : AC-3
Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
Mode extension : CM (complete main)
Codec ID : 2000
Duration : 1h 57mn
Bit rate mode : Constant
Bit rate : 448 Kbps
Channel(s) : 6 channels
Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossy
Delay relative to video : 453ms
Stream size : 377 MiB (27%)
Alignment : Split accross interleaves
Interleave, duration : 42 ms (1.00 video frame)
Interleave, preload duration : 500 ms

any ideas?

[manono]

Like I said I don't use Vegas for anything, and I didn't even quite understand what you said. If you're saying you used that same 23.976fps Kick Ass source that you showed us yesterday that was OK, and passed it through Vegas keeping it at 23.976fps and the result was still ghosted, then you must have done something else wrong in Vegas. If you used some other 23.976fps video as a source, we'd need to see that one.

But since I don't use Vegas at all, I'll drop out and hope someone else comes along that can help. You might post or provide pictures of all the settings used in Vegas. Good luck.

[sevenofone]

Ok no problem. Sorry I was a bit unclear. First thing I did was to render the source that was ok yesterday that you looked at, at 23.976fps but the output was still ghosting so I found another source file to use and rendered that one at both 25fps and 23.976fps and the output was fine on both. This file is the second one above.

I was just saying I couldn't really see the difference that would create ghosting on the first file at both 25fps and 23.976fps, and no ghosting at all with either frame rate on the second file. Thanks for your help though, I wonder if any Vegas users can assist?

[jagabo]

Maybe your non-ghosting file doesn't have much motion? The ghosting you are seeing is a blending of two adjacent frames. If there is little motion in a video the adjacent frames are nearly identical so you won't see much ghosting.

[sevenofone]

I'm comparing the exact same segment of footage on the two sources. Using the early clip of the bicycle as discussed yesterday so i don't know, I can see they are different resolutions with the lower res one not ghosted. Vegas just seems to cause it when rendering using the larger res one. Dunno, I might just give up i think. Thanks for all the replies tho

[jagabo]

Did you check the resample setting after importing the different sources? Maybe vegas defaulted to resample with one, not with the other.

[poisondeathray]

Did you do anything else to alter the speed, like slow mo sequences, things like that ?

If your asset is 23.976 and your export is 23.976 , there should be no ghosting unless you did other speed changes or doing something else wrong

I was just saying I couldn't really see the difference that would create ghosting on the first file at both 25fps and 23.976fps, and no ghosting at all with either frame rate on the second file.

you need to provide more information on what you did, project & export settings used, maybe provide samples

[edDV]

If your source is progressive 23.976 fps , here are the basic project settings. Pay particular attention to "Deinterlace Method" in case interlace or telecined source clips are added. "None" will get you split lines, "Blend" gets ghosting during motion. Use "Interpolate fields".

[budwzr]

I don't know if this strategy really works, but I keep my timeline at 720p60 and my thinking is that it is always bigger than or equal to any source material, except stills.

Since 30/60 fps are "balanced" in terms of "equal multiples", upsampling is divisible by two. However, I don't use 24fps footage because it's going to get resampled across split frames.

[jagabo]

Since 30/60 fps are "balanced" in terms of "equal multiples", upsampling is divisible by two.

Won't you still get blended frames in Vegas unless you disable resampling?

[poisondeathray]

Since 30/60 fps are "balanced" in terms of "equal multiples", upsampling is divisible by two.

Won't you still get blended frames in Vegas unless you disable resampling?

Yes you would . To make up the extra frames, they are blended between neighbors. If "disable resample" is chosen, they are duplicates instead of blends


The op's youtube composition is from Hollywood film sources. If they are all xvid blu-ray/dvd rips then they should all be 23.976 fps . The sd input version looks like it has been IVTCed . If the project settings are set to 23.976 and export settings are 23.976 there should be no ghosting in the absense of speed changes

[sevenofone]

OK edDV, looked at project settings and render settings again, and set it up as picture above, I have uploaded a v small clip that was ghosted to me, and it now looks OK I think, although I'm so paranoid about the damn thing I wonder if someone could just have a quick look and see if quality is ok. It's the same clip played twice from the two sources. Also, are my render settings here ok for youtube uploads?

video: http://www.sendspace.com/file/crh1l4

render settings:

http://img15.imageshack.us/i/renderscreen.jpg/

Many thanks

[budwzr]

Since 30/60 fps are "balanced" in terms of "equal multiples", upsampling is divisible by two.

Won't you still get blended frames in Vegas unless you disable resampling?

Yes you would . To make up the extra frames, they are blended between neighbors. If "disable resample" is chosen, they are duplicates instead of blends

The help file says resampling interpolates, not blend. And that it should help alleviate jitter, stutter, and interlace issues as well as velocity or framerate issues. I'm using V10 Pro.